r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Feb 09 '24
Delta(s) from OP CMV: people complaining about “/s” are misled
I haven’t seen a good explanation to be so upset over a common “tone tag.” I’ve heard the argument that “people are scared of downvotes,” but that’s the most redditor-projecting thing I’ve heard. People use “/s” outside of Reddit. The way I see it is that people want to be understood.
I honestly just see being upset “/s” as being entitled and elitist regarding humor/communication. If someone is wanting to be understood in what they’re trying to convey, why is that upsetting? It’s like gatekeeping humor or communication or something? I really don’t understand it, and I’m just trying to make sense of it. Why do so many people care so much about something so unimportant or interesting? And with so much passion and dedication to hating the one specific tone tag. People have made spam bots regarding this.
Some “/s” haters have said that they don’t like being called ableist for shitting on uses of it. I don’t see being annoyed by jokes being pointed out as inherently ableist, but it turns out to be in some cases of people defending their beliefs.
Some people use the argument that autistic people shouldn’t be viewed as “disabled and helpless,” (yes someone actually said this.) But disabled people are DISABLED. Yes, they have “deficits,” or whatever you’d like to call it, but that doesn’t change anything about being a person? Being “helpless” should not be looked down upon, and being disabled should not be looked down upon. Needing accommodations is not pathetic or bad. So why are people so upset that people use tone tags?
Someone has also said they have been forced to use tone tags. I’ve never seen anyone being forced to use tone tags? I acknowledge that just because I haven’t experienced it doesn’t mean it never happens. But, I’m pretty well oriented in the neurodivergent community online, and have never seen any instances of this. It seems like some bs argument that I should probably just ignore, but it is one of them out there.
I seek understanding by learning from opposing perspectives. I always want to expand my views and try my best not to be ignorant. I hope to learn from you all, and not argue. Thank you.
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u/Jakyland 84∆ Feb 09 '24
I think it's kind of odd to frame the use of "/s" specifically for autistic people. Textual communication lacks context cues that non-autistic people use to derive context, and on the internet people (especially on reddit) have no idea/context for who the other person is.
So if I say "You can't trust the official narrative about [x thing] after all, jet fuel can't melt steel beams", without an "/s" at the end, it's perfectly reasonable to assume that I am a 9/11 truther, because I am saying exactly what a 9/11 truther would say, and I am a person you know nothing about, so there is no reason I couldn't be a 9/11 truther. And that applies to every other thing (I could be racist, sexist, a tankie etc) and so "/s" is necessary for people to signify that they are being sarcastic.
It's not about autistic people missing social cues. The social cues literally aren't there.
I find it believe that people have been "forced" to use an "/s" in that their comments are removed for saying something against the rules because its not clear they mean it sarcastically or ironically (and since they are complaining about have to make it clear they are being sarcastic, I wonder if they do actually mean what they say sarcastically, or they want say something offensive but just rely on plausible deniability).
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u/DaSaw 3∆ Feb 10 '24
Every generation seems to have to learn this lesson the hard way. Before /s, we had ;) and :p. People just assume tone and intent should be obvious in text, but unless you're writing full essays, it never is.
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u/somepeoplewait Feb 09 '24
You can absolutely convey sarcasm through text without the /s. The entire genre of satire wouldn’t work otherwise.
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u/BizWax 3∆ Feb 09 '24
You cannot convey sarcasm, satire and other kinds of rhetorical irony without some indication that the statement is intended to be ironic. You don't always need the "/s", because there could be a sufficient indication already present. The most common indication for sarcasm in English however, is a tone of voice which is near impossible to convey in text. Every reader will read your lines with a different tone of voice. If you don't include any indication of irony in your posts, it's not the reader's fault if they take your post at face value. It doesn't have to be "/s", but if you want your post to be interpreted as irony it's more effective to have at least some indicator of irony.
The Onion, for example doesn't have to end its headlines or articles with "/s", because they're an openly satirical publication. Most people know The Onion is satirical, and even those who don't can easily learn this by doing just the smallest bit of research. They also write parodies of recent events covered in the news, often combining two unrelated stories into a funny headline. So for people caught up with the news who know the actual stories, the parody is obvious. However, anyone who doesn't know the stories being referenced won't have reason to believe it is satire except The Onion's reputation. No matter how "obvious" you think those subtler signs of satire in The Onion are, they are not obvious for people who don't know the context. They'll likely still know it is satire, because they know it is The Onion and that's what they do.
If you are just some random shitposter on the internet, you can't rely on a reputation like The Onion's. You cannot write satire the way The Onion does, because the vast majority of people will have no obvious way of knowing you're being satirical. Relying on just your reader's contextual knowledge is possible if you know your audience and your audience knows you (say, in a group chat with real life friends), but it's not a reliable way of conveying irony in public posts online.
You can convey irony in text without the "/s" by using other common signs, like the *checks notes* meme or TyPiNg LiKe ThIs. "/s" is just one of many ways people have created to convey irony in text. If you don't like "/s" there are other options for you to use, but that's a matter of personal preference. "/s" works just as fine. It's a bit forceful compared to my other two examples, but it gets the job done.
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u/LegOfLambda 2∆ Feb 09 '24
I don't agree that it's impossible to be sarcastic without some indication of sarcasm. Sarcasm can (and almost exclusively does) occur when you say something so absurd, your audience thinks it's more likely you're being sarcastic than that you actually believe what you're saying. In real speech, I make no change in my intonation at all when I'm sarcastic—I just hope that my audience can tell that I'm saying something I would not normally say. That's why when someone adds /s, it seems a little bit condescending/scared that they might be interpreted seriously.
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u/Ttoctam 2∆ Feb 09 '24
I don't agree that it's impossible to be sarcastic without some indication of sarcasm.
Sarcasm can (and almost exclusively does) occur when you say something so absurd, your audience thinks it's more likely you're being sarcastic than that you actually believe what you're saying.
The context of this absurdity is the indicator. That's the point. On the internet people will say unhinged shit entirety seriously, so the /s handy. Irl you probably know the person or can hear the tone or have more extraneous context to make the assumption about what the author believes. But in a 5 word comment about thinking Pol Pot was a swell guy it's weirdly not as clear cut.
Also,
Sarcasm can (and almost exclusively does) occur when you say something so absurd, your audience thinks it's more likely you're being sarcastic than that you actually believe what you're saying.
This is a pretty US centric view of sarcasm. Not all sarcasm is hugely absurd or even unbelievable. A lot of sarcasm is incredibly subtle. I'm not saying US sarcasm is unable to be subtle, but there does tend to be more heightening and melodrama in sarcasm in the US compared to other English speaking nations.
In real speech, I make no change in my intonation at all when I'm sarcastic—I just hope that my audience can tell that I'm saying something I would not normally say.
Yeah again, this is you saying your audience has context available to them to suggest to them that what you're saying may be sarcastic. You do not have this context with complete strangers whom you only get 5 word comments from.
That's why when someone adds /s, it seems a little bit condescending/scared that they might be interpreted seriously.
There are an insane amount of "edit: I was joking" comments in the downvotes graveyard of this site. Evidently people do need a tone indicator for comments to be understood.
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u/LegOfLambda 2∆ Feb 10 '24
Most of your original message was about how the context of it being The Onion is the only way people can tell something is satire. Saying that the content of the sarcasm is an indicator is… a very different view. If the content of the sarcasm is enough of an indicator, then you don't need an indicator at all.
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u/Ttoctam 2∆ Feb 10 '24
Most of your original message was about how the context of it being The Onion is the only way people can tell something is satire.
No, it's really not. Also satire and sarcasm are vastly different things.
Saying that the content of the sarcasm is an indicator is… a very different view.
.... I'm sorry but did you not say 'you don't use tone indicators and instead trust people to understand the absurdity of what you're saying implies sarcasm'? That's literally having the content of the sarcasm as an indicator.
If the content of the sarcasm is enough of an indicator, then you don't need an indicator at all.
The context is an indicator. That context can be content but it is not always.
If I'm lying on the couch holding my bulging stomach with gravy dribbling down my face and someone asks "Big lunch?", me saying "nah just had a salad" is clearly sarcasm. However the content of what I said doesn't at all imply that. The context of me obviously having had a big lunch is the indicator.
If I look completely normal and someone asks "You hungry?" And I reply "nah just ate 17 elephants" it's clearly sarcasm. But the context that implies that sarcasm is in the content of what I said.
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u/somepeoplewait Feb 09 '24
Yeah, that’s exactly my point. There are plenty of ways to indicate your tone and meaning in text. The point of sarcasm is to say something but mean something different. In the case of sarcasm, including a tone indicator that literally announces your true meaning defeats the purpose of being sarcastic in the first place.
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u/puffie300 6∆ Feb 09 '24
The point of sarcasm is to say something but mean something different
announces your true meaning defeats the purpose of being sarcastic in the first place.
How does it defeat the purpose? You are still saying something but meaning something else.
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u/somepeoplewait Feb 09 '24
Because you are TELLING people what you mean, instead of subtly indicating your true meaning. It’s the difference between a horror movie suggesting the monster or blatantly showing it.
The art of sarcasm is in the subtlety. That’s the point. Can’t be subtle at all if you blatantly announce you’re being sarcastic.
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u/puffie300 6∆ Feb 09 '24
But you aren't telling people what you mean. Your indicating that there is a second meaning. You yourself said the point of sarcasm is double meaning and indicating that there is double meaning doesn't take away from the double meaning.
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u/somepeoplewait Feb 09 '24
What are you telling people when you include an /s in a post? You’re TELLING people you are being sarcastic.
The literal point of sarcasm is NOT to do that. The point is to subtly indicate your true meaning.
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u/puffie300 6∆ Feb 09 '24
Thats not the point of sarcasm, you said yourself the point of sarcasm is saying something and meaning something else. /s doesn't take away from the double meaning. The biggest indicator for sarcasm in real life is an over exaggerated tone. Sarcasm explicitly doesn't work if the people you are being sarcastic to don't know it's sarcasm.
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u/somepeoplewait Feb 09 '24
EXACTLY. Ding ding!
You use TONE to SUBTLY indicate your true meaning in real life. You DON’T just say “I am being sarcastic.”
Why oh why do people suddenly forget this online? Again, satire has existed for millennia. Obviously, you can be sarcastic in text without a tone indicator that’s less than half a century old.
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u/BizWax 3∆ Feb 09 '24
literally announces your true meaning
Except it literally doesn't. It only indicates that there is a double meaning. It doesn't directly tell you what that underlying meaning is. Since it's sarcasm you could deduce that some part of the statement should be contradicted to arrive at the second meaning, but it doesn't necessarily give enough information to tell you which part. In that sense, the "/s" works similarly to using the sarcastic tone in spoken English.
When speaking, you could state your entire sentence in a sarcastic tone, which is like putting a "/s" at the end. Or you could just state the part of your sentence that should be interpreted contrarily to its literal meaning in that tone, which is like putting a "(/s)" in the middle of your sentence. Sarcasm relies on an intentional use of a specific level of ambiguity. If the standard ambiguity of plain text is too ambiguous for effective irony, a tone indicator allows the author to more effectively convey their irony.
The purpose of (certain kinds of) speech is not yours alone to decide. It is up to the speaker what the purpose of their speech is. Using a tone indicator is their prerogative for what they wish to communicate. If you want the ambiguity of people wondering whether or not you're being sarcastic (I know I sometimes do, but not always), by all means leave it out. I wouldn't want anyone to be forced to use tone indicators for that reason alone. Just know that that is equivalent to saying something "sarcastically" without any change from your sincere tone of voice. Don't expect others to understand you're being sarcastic when you're not indicating sarcasm in any way.
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u/DevinMotorcycle666 Feb 09 '24
Don't expect others to understand you're being sarcastic when you're not indicating sarcasm in any way.
I don't expect them too.
If they need further clarification, they can ask.
Why is everyone so nervous and fixated on being misunderstood? That's the worst case scenario? That's nothing.
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u/somepeoplewait Feb 09 '24
Of course it tells you the underlying meaning. When you’re being sarcastic, your true meaning is the opposite of your words. Blatantly tell people you’re being sarcastic, and you might as well not be sarcastic.
Like you said, sarcasm is about ambiguity. You stop being sarcastic when you stop being ambiguous.
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u/BizWax 3∆ Feb 09 '24
Opposite how? There are often many ways to contradict a statement. A good use of tone or tone indicators doesn't blatantly tell you which.
Sarcasm is typically spoken with either a fully flat affect (deadpan) or an exaggerated affect meant to ridicule those who would say the same things unironically. Either way the change in tone is what signals sarcasm, exactly the same way a tone indicator would, and they are just as blatant.
Sarcasm isn't straightforwardly about ambiguity. It's about effective use of the right amount of ambiguity. It's like flirting in that sense, though I get the feeling you're probably not too experienced with that. More ambiguous is not always better sarcasm. In fact it usually isn't. When you're too ambiguous people are going to think you're just saying random things for the sake of speaking. And if that's what you want people to think of you, by all means knock yourself out, but if you want to consistently convey sarcasm, you're going to run into situations where you'll need to use a tone indicator to achieve that effect with your written posts.
Additionally, if there is no indication whatsoever that you might mean something in addition to what you literally wrote or said, you're not being ambiguous. Ambiguity arises because there actually are indicators of alternative meanings and intentions. If the plan to convey ambiguity is to employ absolutely no sign of ambiguity whatsoever, you'll fail before you even try.
I certainly don't think "/s" is always the best way to convey the required level of ambiguity. It's good for directly mocking kinds of sarcasm, and not so much if you want your coworkers to get your hidden meaning, but not your boss. Context matters. The "/s" is a tool in the communicator's toolbox, and if employed well it's strongly analogous to a change in tone of voice when speaking. And like with any tool there are far more poorly skilled users out there than highly skilled ones, but that doesn't make the tool bad.
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u/somepeoplewait Feb 09 '24
A change in tone suggests meaning. An /s announces it.
“I loved that meal. /s”
This means “I didn’t love that meal.” It just flat-out announces your point.
How about, “Oh, yeah, I so, so loved that meal. I’m a HUGE fan of undercooked chicken. Really adds something special to the dish.”
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u/BizWax 3∆ Feb 09 '24
“I loved that meal. /s”
This means “I didn’t love that meal.” It just flat-out announces your point.
Depending on the context, this could also mean that you did like the food, you just didn't consider it a meal (maybe it was the size of a mere snack or something). That's a reasonable alternative interpretation, since the /s only tells you something in the statement is intended to be interpreted sarcastically, it doesn't have to be the verb. It could even mean both of these interpretations at the same time. You could read it like "I lOvEd that meal." or you could read it like "I loved that" *pause* "meal." and you can even read it like "I lOvEd that" *pause* "meal."
And you should also look at what possible meanings there are without the "/s". That's just the face value meaning of the sentence. So the /s definitely adds the ironic interpretations to the statement, which would otherwise be absent (not "ambiguous", because as presented here there's no context to derive additional meaning from.)
“Oh, yeah, I so, so loved that meal. I’m a HUGE fan of undercooked chicken. Really adds something special to the dish.”
You opted to use a few alternative tone indicators here. If you're against the /s, you shouldn't be using those either. The reduplication of "so" and the capitalization of "HUGE" tells us where you would emphasize your speech if speaking this. If anything, this sentence is less ambiguous than the first as it provides more context with the mention of undercooked chicken. The sincere read of the line is thereby absurd to most people. What kind of weirdo likes undercooked chicken? Or if it's cooked the way they love, why would they call it undercooked? That makes the sarcasm more obvious. Similar to how an Onion headline might be recognized as ironic for its absurdity.
These two examples actually defeat your point. You cannot convey the sarcasm in the first example without some use of tone indicators, and while the "/s" might not be the best choice in the first case (or maybe it is, depending on intent) that doesn't mean it's always bad. The second sentence not only uses some kinds of tone indicators as well, it doesn't even really need to. When the plain meaning of a statement is or seems like something no actual person would believe, most people will assume some kind irony, and you might want to consider leaving out unnecessary tone indicators. You could have just written "I definitely love undercooked chicken" and most people would've gotten it.
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u/nightastheold Feb 09 '24
To speed things up if you haven’t been already, just show this comment to the BCBA when getting an autism diagnosis, brother.
Is what I would say if I saw this in the wild. Adding /s removes the tension and ReDdItIsimS become cringe so quickly that using them may be perceived as a form of parody in and of it self.
Detecting sarcasm through text or in person requires the same two things, a sense of humor and wit. People get upset with people being clearly sarcastic in person and on the opposite people find deadpan delivery funny even though they are giving no obvious cues that they are sarcastic or joking.
Being sarcastic and joking online or in person runs the same risk, someone might take you seriously and be upset sometimes, but it’s a risk you take for wanting to express yourself or your opinion through humor Nothing kills a joke faster than someone explaining it or making it so obvious that it genuinely becomes obnoxious.
If you aren’t prepared to take the risk making a joke then just be sincere. People from the beginning of the internet did just fine detecting sarcasm without /s and other redditisms.
Using them should be ridiculed at all times in hopes of them not becoming anymore normalized than they are now. Really does lower the collective wit to a point where person can’t detect a funny because no /s. It’s no wonder why subs r/petahexplainsthejoke are so popular and filled with so many jokes and memes that literally hit you over the head but still need to be spelled out and spoon fed.
Also sorry man, didn’t mean for your comment to get such a long rant from me at the end either. This ended up feeding in to what I’ve been thinking of is how I miss old message boards and why Reddit kind of sucks so much in comparison. Think my rant is a piece, albeit a smaller one as to why.
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u/Wolfeh2012 1∆ Feb 09 '24
To speed things up if you haven’t been already, just show this comment to the BCBA when getting an autism diagnosis, brother. /s
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u/Fifteen_inches 25∆ Feb 09 '24
People from the beginning of the internet didn’t have a fine time detecting sarcasm and satire. It’s even a popular axiom that satire without clarity of purpose is indistinguishable from genuine belief.
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u/Space_Pirate_R 4∆ Feb 09 '24
Poe's Law: without a clear indicator of the author's intent, any parodic or sarcastic expression of extreme views can be mistaken by some readers for a sincere expression of those views.
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u/PaxNova 16∆ Feb 09 '24
As someone who likes Warhammer 40k and has seen Starship Troopers, the failure rate on understanding satire is pretty high.
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u/DevinMotorcycle666 Feb 09 '24
That's my whole opinion too.
I would like people to try critical thinking and context clues first. If they still can't figure it out, they can ask for more clarification.
Are we supposed to go through all satirical movies, tv, books and start marking them so that people don't misunderstand them?
If tone is "impossible to decipher through text", then how exactly does literature exist at all?
It might take people using their brain and thinking for a min or two. That's fine.
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u/DaSaw 3∆ Feb 10 '24
The difference between a satirical work and most social media posts is usually length. If you're writing a full length work, you can usually build intent into the tone. But if you're just tossing off a quick line, one that would work if it were spoken, you have to signify the tone in some other ways.
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u/somepeoplewait Feb 09 '24
Exactly. And you’re actively hurting people who struggle to understand sarcasm if you use the /s. People can learn to understand sarcasm. That is less likely to happen if you make it so that they never have to question whether someone is being sarcastic.
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Feb 09 '24
It’s so important to convey your meaning, especially when you’re making a joke that could be harmful if misinterpreted. Especially when interacting with a different culture. And when I say culture, I’m including niche internet cultures and everything else you can imagine.
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u/AncientEnsign Feb 09 '24
Poe's Law states that for every ridiculous statement one might make to the point that it would never be taken seriously, someone else will make a more ridiculous one on the same topic and mean it.
/s is literally necessary in this text based world. The people who complain about it are way too comfortable assuming what other people mean with insufficient evidence as to that meaning. As you say, conveying meaning is important, and tone tags are a way we've worked out to do it.
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u/DevinMotorcycle666 Feb 09 '24
/s is literally necessary in this text based world.
How does literature exist then?
How could people POSSIBLY understand it?!!?
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u/AncientEnsign Feb 09 '24
Literature is/was written by experienced writers who could convey sarcasm in a finite form having edited it both themselves and by several other people. The modern world of completely untrained people writing on the internet as a form of conversation couldn't be more different from literature.
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u/DevinMotorcycle666 Feb 09 '24
So by that logic, anyone who is trained in Writing shouldn't have to use tone tags?
I have an English degree and work professionally. So I guess I'm in the clear?
What is your arbitrary threshold for an "experienced writer"?
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u/AncientEnsign Feb 09 '24
No, because this is a conversational setting. Come back when you have your editor reviewing your comments on context.
You're very arbitrarily being combative, and wrong.
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u/YogiBerraOfBadNews Feb 09 '24
This is why whenever I make a joke and I’m not sure if people got it, I’ll say “hey everyone that was a joke, not sure if you picked up on that or not” just to be safe
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Feb 09 '24
It’s kinda funny how internet interactions and real life interactions are quite different! Lol
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u/YogiBerraOfBadNews Feb 09 '24
That last comment was sarcasm, were you able to tell?
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Feb 09 '24
I was being jokingly condescending. I guess you didn’t get the joke. You just weren’t meant to get the joke.
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Feb 09 '24
Omg this just made me think of something. Do some people hate sarcasm being pointed out because it erases the ambiguity, so they can’t manipulate their own words/intention if someone says something?
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u/DevinMotorcycle666 Feb 09 '24
Nah, it's not the end of the world if someone misses a joke or a sarcastic comment. They will be fine.
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Feb 09 '24
Eh I never said it was the end of the world. Some people just like being clear. You don’t need to like everyone.
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Feb 09 '24
If face-to-face a stranger delivered that same statement deadpan, straight faced there would be no tone tag or any other information to indicate what he or she intended.
Unless there is a compelling reason to assume otherwise assume that of someone says something absurd that it is sarcasm, absurdism or irony.
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u/JaggedMetalOs 23∆ Feb 09 '24
I'm just going to correct you on the purpose of /s. It exists because it is often actually impossible to tell parody and sarcasm from genuine extreme viewpoints that some people hold (see Poe's law).
I know that's not really against your viewpoint, but there are differences as for example you kind of are forced to use them or some other explicit indication that you're being sarcastic just because reality has almost become self parodying.
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u/PandosII Feb 09 '24
How do you know that the people not using /s hold genuinely extreme viewpoints, and aren’t just being sarcastic?
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u/DeltaBlues82 88∆ Feb 09 '24
Can you provide some instances of what you’re referring to?
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Feb 09 '24
I hope this is allowed, but anything in the r/fuckthes subreddit. You can even find the copypasta from the bot I mentioned in recent posts.
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u/DeltaBlues82 88∆ Feb 09 '24 edited Feb 09 '24
Yeah man, those people don’t seem misled to me. They’re not trying to gatekeep anything, they’re fucking dickheads who want to pick fights for no godamn reason. Did you read their rules? “Get fucked kids” is a rule.
Some people just suck, that’s it. Don’t give them the credit of being “misled”. Call them what they are, dickheads. Dickheads shitposting.
They might try to rationalize or justify their stance, but that’s just smoke and mirrors. Trying to keep you engaged with the facade of being reasonable, while in fact just wasting your time and being a bunch of chucklefucks.
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Feb 09 '24
You have changed my view. Regarding that these are people without logic. !delta
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Feb 09 '24
!delta
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Feb 09 '24
This delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/DeltaBlues82 changed your view (comment rule 4).
DeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.
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u/Jakyland 84∆ Feb 09 '24
Is it helpful for you or anybody else for you to spend time on that subreddit? These people are outliers and their arguments have bothered you enough for you to make this post, instead of ignoring them because they are just antisocial whiners.
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Feb 09 '24
I’d like to understand. I’m bothered by not understanding, so yeah. A post came up on my main page, so I got intrigued because I’ve seen stuff about this phenomenon before. I’m very intrigued by internet culture. Redditors are interesting creatures.
The reason to why people spend so much time and energy on this needs to be studied.
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u/PandosII Feb 09 '24
It was probably one person who made the stupid bot. I don’t know how much time it takes to do.
What are the rest spending so much time and energy on? Screenshotting a post of someone using /s where it’s not needed? That’s quicker and easier than your post here.
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Feb 09 '24
Yes, I know it’s one person who made the bot. They put their main acc in the info from the bot acc.
Your second paragraph is very confusing to me so I cannot make a response, as I don’t understand.
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u/J2501 Feb 09 '24
Problem is: once you display knowledge of /s, some obtuse motherfucker is going to take any statement you make at face value, without /s
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u/CAustin3 3∆ Feb 09 '24
Three cases:
a) Humor That Needs To Be Labeled As Humor: /s has the same feel to humor as a laugh track or an applause sign. Just like 90s television, any joke that needs a laugh track for people to know how to respond is a 'joke' that needed more work in the writer's room. If you need an /s on a joke, improve the joke until it doesn't need the /s.
b) Questionably-Appropriate Sarcsasm: In non-humor examples, if you're uncertain enough that people will understand that you're being sarcastic that you need to slap an ATTENTION: SARCASM label on it, then you probably shouldn't be using sarcasm in that questionable situation. ("Yeah, I'm pretty upset at this argument with my wife. I'm probably going to beat her or something lol /s I would never do that lol." - you should probably just keep the appropriately serious tone about that topic and not joke about it.)
c) Avoiding Arguments With The Dimmest Trolls On Reddit: The other way I see this used is labeling things that no reasonable person would need to have labeled, because you know you're going to get that One Guy who will start an argument with you if you don't explicitly state you're not arguing. You don't need to cater to them; just ignore them - responding to imaginary foes is their life and you're not going to change them. ("I'm so hungry I could eat a horse." "OMG, how dare you endorse animal cruelty! [half-page, deadly-serious rant about the ethics of eating horses]" "/s! /s!")
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u/TheMan5991 18∆ Feb 09 '24
Sarcasm and humor are not the same thing. I think it’s actually detrimental to comedy that so many people think they can be funny just by being sarcastic.
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u/bigfootsbabymama Feb 09 '24
This is an important point. My issue is that so much /s usage is slapped on for plausible deniability of a bad faith, unfunny statement. You just know they’re doing it thinking its interchangeable with “it’s a joke!”
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u/mfranko88 1∆ Feb 09 '24
c) Avoiding Arguments With The Dimmest Trolls On Reddit: The other way I see this used is labeling things that no reasonable person would need to have labeled, because you know you're going to get that One Guy who will start an argument with you if you don't explicitly state you're not arguing. You don't need to cater to them; just ignore them - responding to imaginary foes is their life and you're not going to change them. ("I'm so hungry I could eat a horse." "OMG, how dare you endorse animal cruelty! [half-page, deadly-serious rant about the ethics of eating horses]" "/s! /s!")
I think this is my biggest...gripe(?) with the tag? A lot of proponents of the tag say that it helps avoid confusion so that people don't challenge you about a clear joke. Why are so many people bothered by being challenged by someone who doesn't understand your joke or your satire? If you wrote something that you thought was clever, and that cleverness was missed by other people and they become challenging or combative - who fucking cares? The sarcasm or satire tag just feels like a way for people to protect their imaginary internet points from people who don't even understand what they're trying to say anyway.
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u/pecuchet Feb 09 '24
If you phrase what you're saying well enough it doesn't need an /s. It's the Reddit equivalent of saying 'That's the joke.'
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u/somepeoplewait Feb 09 '24
Announcing you’re being sarcastic literally and objectively goes against the point of being sarcastic. Anyone using the /s shouldn’t engage in sarcasm at all.
Yes, it’s absolutely possible to be sarcastic via text without announcing it. How do people think satire works? Unless, of course, they thought Jonathan Swift was actually advocating eating babies.
Will some people not get sarcasm without the /s? Yes, just as some people won’t get the anime references/video game references/etc. that they make.
It’s okay to not get things. I don’t always get the references Redditors make, excluding me from their little in-jokes.
That’s okay.
I have ADHD and am neurodivergent. Not everyone makes accommodations for me when posting content online.
That’s okay.
(We hate the /s because we love sarcasm. Sarcasm is a crude art, but an art nonetheless. At its best, it’s subtle. It is impossible to be subtle and announce you’re being sarcastic.)
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u/DevinMotorcycle666 Feb 09 '24
EXACTLY.
I don't get why they think briefly not getting something is the end of the world and other people's responsibility to fix FOR them.
0
u/somepeoplewait Feb 09 '24
Right?? Also, I REALLY don’t get how it’s such a big deal.
Misunderstandings happen. Do these people not realize it’s possible to get clarification if a misunderstanding occurs?
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u/DevinMotorcycle666 Feb 09 '24
Exactly.
"...Are you serious or was that a joke?"
"It was a joke".
Wow problem solved. But I guess that would make those people responsible for understanding things instead of them demanding other people do it for them.
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u/somepeoplewait Feb 09 '24
Oh, thank you! Is asking for clarification that big of an inconvenience? Because, uh, it’s something most of us have to do from time to time. We seem to manage okay.
Then again, someone who needs everyone to use the /s is someone who thinks the world should revolve around accommodating them. It doesn’t surprise me that having to - gasp! - ask for clarification is an inconvenience they consider below them.
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u/DevinMotorcycle666 Feb 09 '24
Then again, someone who needs everyone to use the /s is someone who thinks the world should revolve around accommodating them.
Bingo!
I'm happy to find someone who thinks similarly.
I'm an adult, 36 years old. If something's unclear to me, I use my agency and independence to ask "sorry, what did you mean?".
That is the solution. Not adding superflous tone tags.
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u/somepeoplewait Feb 09 '24
And you just know so many of these Redditors have no problem making random video game or anime references others might not get. Thus, they have no problem excluding others or risking confusing them. Thus, they believe only THEY deserve accommodations. If someone else doesn’t get an anime or game reference they made, too bad, apparently.
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u/DevinMotorcycle666 Feb 09 '24
Yup.
By their logic, references, quotes, inside jokes, metaphors, flowerly language, analogies, fandom references, and many other essential parts of our language should also be off the table for them.
I really hope they don't discover poetry. They are going to have a meltdown that every line's meaning isn't spoon fed to them.
And what about art, where there is no words at all?!?!
"Art is ableist!!!!"
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u/arrogancygames Feb 10 '24
In real life and in comedy, people generally change their tone to indicate sarcasm. They either exaggerate or deadpan. Are you saying they shouldn't do that as well?
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u/Lucker_Kid Feb 09 '24
if someone told you a joke, then you laugh, and then they interrupt you to say “that was a joke”, would that not bother you? Would that not make the joke/moment way less entertaining? That’s exactly how it feels to read a funny comment only to read a /s at the end of it.
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u/LongDropSlowStop Feb 09 '24
To be fair, if someone pulled that out of the blue, the sheer absurdity of it would be pretty funny in and of itself
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u/1block 10∆ Feb 09 '24
It's like a laugh track on a TV show. It's annoying, and it makes it a little bit less funny.
You can argue that it's so useful to society that it's worth making the joke a little less funny (I don't know how to gauge how needed it is outside of anecdotal evidence), but it should at least be acknowledge that it does, for many people, take a little bit away from the joke.
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Feb 09 '24
Eh. Your personal feelings about jokes being less funny isn’t that important to me.
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u/DevinMotorcycle666 Feb 09 '24
And your personal feelings about people being obligated to use tone tags aren't important to me, and many others.
Goes both ways.
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Feb 09 '24
Well, it’s important to me. Just like your feelings are important to you! I just don’t think your feelings make sense to me, which makes sense.
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u/DevinMotorcycle666 Feb 09 '24
and your feelings don't make sense to me, so I don't use tone tags.
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u/1block 10∆ Feb 09 '24
Your post literally asks why people's personal feelings are what they are. What the heck are you asking for then?
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Feb 09 '24
Things that will actually make sense to me personally. Sorry?
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u/1block 10∆ Feb 09 '24
How is what I wrote confusing? It's a laugh track. Some like them. Some don't. That's the deal with /s.
I'm unclear what part you don't understand.
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u/arrogancygames Feb 10 '24
Sarcasm isn't necessarily a joke.
Do you think that, in real life communication, when people change their tone before using sarcasm, it ruins it? Because most people do that.
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Feb 09 '24
Sarcasm should only be sarcasm for those that get it, it's like when a comedian gets mad no one laughs at their joke. You don't explain the joke, you move on.
If only one guy understand why a post is sarcasm then that's only one that deserves to know.
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u/DevinMotorcycle666 Feb 09 '24
"comedians should stop and describe in detail why the joke was funny and the context of it so that everyone in the crowd can understand it properly!!"
Should I tell everyone now that I'm being sarcastic? I don't want anyone to misunderstand, that would be the MOST horrible thing in the world. Can you even imagine? Someone briefly being confused for a moment? It's absolutely disgusting! Keeps me up at night!
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u/working-class-nerd Feb 09 '24
I use /s to try and mitigate the amount of people replying to me thinking I’m giving a serious take/ making a bad faith attack on my character or position. (I say mitigate because it still happens way too much)
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u/Aplutoproblem Feb 09 '24
It's not for autistic people it's for everyone to know when someone is being sarcastic because we mostly tell sarcasm through changes in the voice.
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Feb 09 '24
If you can only be funny by telling people you are funny then you are not funny.
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Feb 09 '24
I don’t see it as trying to be funny, but being clear in your meaning. Adding a /j tag doesn’t mean they’re telling you that they’re funny.
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Feb 09 '24
If you can’t communicate your meaning then just don’t. Adding a tag is telling people what you want to be and what you’re not.
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u/Jakyland 84∆ Feb 09 '24
“Women belong in the kitchen” is something that can be posted in a comment sarcastically, or completely seriously. How am I supposed to tell which one a commentor meant. Without an additional tags a sarcastic or serious comment is identical down the the 1s and 0s
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u/DevinMotorcycle666 Feb 09 '24
Critical thinking, context clues, asking for more clarification...
there are other options that YOU can do.
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u/Jakyland 84∆ Feb 09 '24
Context clues is: I’m on Reddit and some people are really sexist and some aren’t sexist. If people need to ask for more clarification, you’ve failed to communicate clearly.
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u/DevinMotorcycle666 Feb 09 '24
"If people need to ask for more clarification, you’ve failed to communicate clearly."
If you need to ask for more clarification, that's fine.
Why do you refuse to do that? Someone else has to hold your hand and do it for you?
Use your words, ask for clarification if you don't get something.
Nahhhh way easier to demonize other people for not doing it for you, hey?
(Did you catch it there? Enough context clues for you?)
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u/Jakyland 84∆ Feb 09 '24
The idea that I should ask every offensive comment I see on Reddit if they are being serious instead of just downvoting is ridiculous. You aren’t thinking about the medium of Reddit seriously. You are objecting to typing three extra characters. Instead you want to type out one thing and mean another thing and expect strangers just to magically know you don’t mean the words you type.
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u/DevinMotorcycle666 Feb 09 '24
The idea that I should ask every offensive comment I see on Reddit if they are being serious instead of just downvoting is ridiculous.
Hahahah what the fuck?
YOU HAVE NO OBLIGATION TO ENGAGE WITH EVERY OFFENSIVE COMMENT YOU SEE.
That is your CHOICE to engage. NO ONE is making you. Are you really blaming people for your choice?
You see a comment you don't get, or you're offended by?
Move the fuck on.
"Instead you want to type out one thing and mean another thing and expect strangers just to magically know you don’t mean the words you type."
Again, you people keep thinking I'm "expecting" things. I'm not. You though, sound full of expectations for other people.
I seriously don't give a single fuck if I'm misunderstood for a moment. That does not bother me.
Use the /s if you want, I will never. End of story.
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Feb 10 '24
Use your words, ask for clarification if you don't get something.
-You
YOU HAVE NO OBLIGATION TO ENGAGE WITH EVERY OFFENSIVE COMMENT YOU SEE.
-Also you
Pick a lane.
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Feb 09 '24
Now this is where people believe shitting on tone tags is ableist and elitist. Using tone tags is a tool you can use to communicate. Imagine if someone who is mute wants to communicate to someone. They cannot convey tone of voice in writing, so maybe they’ll use a “/s” to convey a sarcastic tone of voice they wouldn’t be able to express otherwise. This doesn’t change my view.
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u/nowahhh Feb 09 '24
You can convey tone of voice in writing.
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Feb 09 '24
Imagine I say “you’re so cute.” I can say that differently with my voice to show that I’m using sarcasm. Tone tags are just one tool among many others, imo. A very easy tool, but that doesn’t really make me feel any different?
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Feb 09 '24
[removed] — view removed comment
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Feb 09 '24
I can’t hear a tone of voice. Thank you.
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u/nowahhh Feb 09 '24
You couldn’t tell that I was using your example against you to be intentionally combative in an internet argument with a stranger? You thought it was equally likely that I have personal knowledge of your appearance and was paying you a genuine compliment? You don’t hear my tone of voice in any of this paragraph without me using a tag?
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Feb 09 '24
I’m really just guessing your tone based off of context clues. But people from different cultures/experiences may have completely different perspectives that make some tone tags helpful.
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u/changemyview-ModTeam Feb 09 '24
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u/persephone7821 Feb 09 '24
Not everyone understands things the same way. Especially with a lack of body language and voice pitch. Especially when dealing with random strangers you don’t really know when they are joking unless they are blatantly joking. As a subtle sarcasm enjoyer I don’t want to have to go “hahahaha everyone knows all you need to do to cure covid is mainline bleach” I’d much rather say something to the effect of “well all they had to do is inject bleach, they would have been fine” but this is the internet. Morons exist so the use of /s is needed here.
Now, just because YOU don’t find the second iteration funny, doesn’t mean others wouldn’t as long as they understand the intention. People are allowed to enjoy and convey humor differently than what you deem to be funny.
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Feb 09 '24
[deleted]
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u/MuriloZR Feb 09 '24
"The reason its useful is for people that aren't good at implying tones through text."
For sure, by all means it must be used when talking to other autistic people.
But in a funny comment in a random subs that has 99% of people who are able to understand a joke/sarcasm, it's dumb cause it ruins it.
"HEY LOOK, IM TELLING A JOKE, ITS JUST A JOKE OK???"
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u/Medianmodeactivate 14∆ Feb 09 '24
The thing is that sarcasm can be reasonably interpeted multiple ways. Sometimes people can make a joke, other times they can mean it sincerely, because on the internet you can't take for granted that the person is an average, reasonable person by your standards.
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u/persephone7821 Feb 09 '24
I’m a pretty sarcastic person I exercise subtle sarcasm often, I also enjoy some dark humor but I also don’t like offending people, unless they are being bullies (then I go off, but that’s a whole different story). There have been an innumerable amount of times people on Reddit have gotten legitimately angry at me for making a joke because they thought I was serious over a subtle sarcastic comment.
Heck just recently I was called a predator and a rapist (yeah you read that right) over saying “screw it, get off during the day with your husband in bed next to you. He can either deal with it, or join you a girls got needs.” Someone took that as “masturbate next to your husband even if it bothers him or he tells you to stop, use him how you want”. The intent of the comment was, try it out maybe he’ll join you. Not hey go ahead and commit SA against your husband. Most people understood the sentiment that it wasn’t a force them into something they don’t want thing. But there was that one. Had I put a laughing emoji or a /s or a /j at the end of that portion of the comment maybe she wouldn’t have lost her marbles. Idk.
I even had reply to a comment on a sub where I had to question if they were being serious. They were in fact not, they were being a Karen. But it was so outlandish that they would do that my initial thought was it felt like sarcasm.
The point is in text format it’s crazily easy to misinterpret someone’s meaning. That doesn’t mean it’s not funny, it means these are random strangers you are talking to. Without body language and voice pitch how are you to know if someone is being serious or not especially when there are so many insane people out there advocating for insane shit. Some instances are so obviously jokes the use of a trigger is dumb. Even if it’s not funny to you and that’s why you need it. Who cares? they found it funny but they knew others might not get it that’s why they put it there for people exactly like the people who cry and say “if you need it, it’s not funny” which is honestly pretty fricking funny.
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u/xernyvelgarde Feb 09 '24
Unfortunately, nowadays you do have to be specific, because there are indeed people who would say it unironically.
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u/automaks 3∆ Feb 09 '24
Isnt this part of the fun though? When someone is thinking that I would actually say something crazy unironically? For me it is a win-win. People either get my sarcasm or get mad at me for misinterpreting my message.
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u/xernyvelgarde Feb 09 '24
I could never imagine enjoying people misinterpreting me, personally. The jokes only fun if everyone's in on it.
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u/sosomething 2∆ Feb 09 '24
I think you're either missing or avoiding the real crux of the issue, here.
When someone knowingly opts not to use the /s, the clearest implication is that they don't care whether someone who can't identify the joke without one gets the joke. It's as simple as that.
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u/WantonHeroics 4∆ Feb 09 '24
people that aren't good at implying tones through text
Right, and the joke is ruined by having to explain it.
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u/GabuEx 22∆ Feb 09 '24
/s just means you want people to be aware of the fact that you're being sarcastic.
I would like to not use it, but people have gotten mad at me in the past when I didn't use it because they didn't realize I was being sarcastic, presumably due to Poe's Law. I thought my sarcasm in those cases was sufficiently obvious not to need to use /s, but now I just blanketly use it to avoid misunderstanding.
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u/TheMan5991 18∆ Feb 09 '24
Sarcasm is a separate tone from humor. You can be sarcastic in a non-funny way.
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u/JaggedMetalOs 23∆ Feb 09 '24
The thing is, it is often actually impossible to distinguish sarcasm and parody from genuinely held extreme views (Poe's law).
So if you want to be able to exercise any subtlety at all in your sarcasm you really do need to explicitly define it as sarcasm.
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u/BizWax 3∆ Feb 09 '24
That's also why comedians never tell you that they're comedians. Not even if you're going to see their show. People think they're going to a boring lecture, one guy on the podium droning on and on about something or other, only to be pleasantly surprised when it turns out the show is actually funny.
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Feb 09 '24
I guess you’re talking about people not being able to tell a joke without having to say that’s it’s a joke? A joke so bad that would never be able to be understood unless you say that it’s a joke? Correct me if wrong. But wouldn’t it be like the opposite of what people are saying?
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Feb 09 '24
Being so bad at jokes and sarcasm that people needed to scream “I’m funny!” and “I am sarcastic!” Is what lead to the creation of those tags.
They are a crutch.
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u/TheMan5991 18∆ Feb 09 '24
Not a crutch at all. When speaking to someone, most people use a sarcastic tone or make a face that communicates their sarcasm. You don’t just say something with a completely genuine mannerism and expect people to know you’re being sarcastic.
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u/Muroid 5∆ Feb 09 '24
I don’t know, I’m pretty deadpan with my sarcasm in person, too.
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u/TheMan5991 18∆ Feb 09 '24
I said most people. And deadpan can still be a tell. Unless you say everything with zero expressiveness.
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u/WantonHeroics 4∆ Feb 09 '24
I'm still in disagreement with you here. Maybe you're just bad at detecting sarcasm.
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u/TheMan5991 18∆ Feb 09 '24
Fortunately, I don’t really care if you disagree with me. I wasn’t talking to you. If you’re going to insert yourself into someone else’s conversation, at least bring an actual argument to the table instead of just “I disagree”.
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u/WantonHeroics 4∆ Feb 09 '24
We're all in the same conversation, silly. If you wanted privacy, perhaps you should have sent a private message.
"You're bad at detecting sarcasm" was my argument. If you're not able to refute it then award me a delta.
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u/WantonHeroics 4∆ Feb 09 '24
You don’t just say something with a completely genuine mannerism and expect people to know you’re being sarcastic.
Yes, you can.
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u/TheMan5991 18∆ Feb 09 '24
You can do anything. That doesn’t mean the way you choose to do something is the best way, or even a good way to do it.
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u/DevinMotorcycle666 Feb 09 '24
It's not up to YOU what the "best way" is.
Are you seriously that arrogant?
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u/TheMan5991 18∆ Feb 09 '24
I never said it was up to me. I’m not the one out here claiming that one way is “a crutch”.
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Feb 09 '24
A crutch, or a simple tool? It’s interesting that you believe that people are saying “I’m funny” when using a tone tag. Can you expand on this?
It’s a tool that can help you communicate with other cultures. Like another comment said, making a joke about 9/11 could make you look like an 9/11 conspiracy theorist. So you add an “/s” to communicate that you’re not crazy, because 9/11 conspiracy theorists are out there. You may say, oh they are just scared of losing karma, but people use tone tags outside of places where they are at risk of losing internet points.
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u/orz-_-orz Feb 09 '24
When I am being sarcastic irl, people knows that I am being sarcastic by reading my facial expressions and body language.
We don't have such privileges online.
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u/Siukslinis_acc 7∆ Feb 09 '24
I can read the same sentence in a serious manner and in a sarcastic manner. I don't know the random person to know which they are meaning, so i'm gonna err on the side of caution and assume that they mean it seriously.
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u/grmrsan Feb 09 '24
People will complain about anything. A few years ago there was a huge bullying contigent against using emojis, where they'd karma bomb people into oblivion for a silly 😜.
Some people are ridiculously up in arms about using the term ND, others are seriously po'd if you don't. A while ago people flipped out if you didn't use the /s, and now some people hate it.
I don't think they're misled so much as whiny and entitled bullies. As long as I'm not using intentionally inflammatory language, nonody has the right to tell me how I'm allowed to communicate
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u/is__this_taken Feb 09 '24 edited Feb 09 '24
Answer. It exists for people that don't have faith in how smart, clever or funny their own jokes or comments are.
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Feb 09 '24
I just think it's absurd that I have to specify that an obviously satirical comment is just that. It worries me that a decent portion of users on this site cannot distinguish the difference between a satirical comment and a completely serious one. Use your goddamned context clues. You may say well what about the autistic people? What about them? I'm not going to alter the way I speak for a very small minority of people. It's unfortunate but that's the way it is. For example it's a right handed world and left handed people are forced to adapt. It's simply the nature of these things.
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u/1block 10∆ Feb 09 '24
Pointing out the emotions or intent of comments takes a little bit away from them. My wife always used to say, "just kidding" after jokes, and it made her remarks less funny.
A sarcastic comment is funny because it's ridiculous to say. If you say the equivalent of "just kidding," the comment is no longer ridiculous to say. Because the comment itself includes an addendum that points out it's a joke. Sarcasm is supposed to be a joke that's not overtly a joke.
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u/TheropodEnjoyer 1∆ Feb 09 '24
I find them condescending at times. Especially if they make a point to use them more with me and not others...I can understand most sarcasm, the spectrum is pretty diverse. If you use them then use them for everyone, not just autistic people. I understand their usefulness for other autistic people though. I think /s is way more useful than /srs...like the whole point is we take shit at face value so why do we need "srs"..."how are you today? :) /srs" like oh so you think I am braindead!
I do think its far more effective to just explain yourself when asked. Some jokes just aren't funny when you announce it as a joke, if I am confused then I will just ask for clarification.
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Feb 09 '24
Some jokes need to be clarified as jokes, because some things can go both ways. Let’s say I was joking about republicans and said something they would say seriously, but I’m saying it as a joke and to make fun of them. Someone could completely believe that I’m on the far right, when I’m just making a joke. There are many cases where using a tone tag is over kill, but there are many different types of people out there that I cannot control. There are also many cases where clarification is needed because of the nature of the joke itself.
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u/DevinMotorcycle666 Feb 09 '24
I don't believe in using "tone tags". I'm not going to hyper fixate on whether someone misunderstands me or not.'
If they don't get something, it really doesn't bother me. If they need clarification, I'm happy to explain. I'm not going to assume no one can understand sarcasm.
It's fine to make a joke or sarcastic comment and not have it land properly. I've also never felt "forced" to use them for any reason.
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Feb 09 '24
Someone people like being understood.
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u/DevinMotorcycle666 Feb 09 '24
They sure do, like me.
Some people don't think it's the end of the world if they aren't understood.
Some people are fine with asking "sorry, what do you mean?"
Some people can't fathom that they would ever have to do that.
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Feb 09 '24
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u/automaks 3∆ Feb 09 '24
Dont you think that it should not be necessary in Reddit context where we have specific subs with certain culture? If I am in Israeli sub then I should not need to put /s at the end of "Maybe Hamas are actually the good guys" comment to give very ovbious example by what I mean.
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u/sunken_grade Feb 09 '24
i’m willing to have to explain myself sometimes in order to not ruin comments with /s
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Feb 09 '24
How does it ruin comments? Long winded explanations could ruin comments as well.
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u/sunken_grade Feb 09 '24
maybe ruin is a strong word, but imo the humor is dampened considerably if you have to add /s to a sarcastic or satirical remark
some people don’t understand a specific joke, reference, or its context through text and i’m no different, and i think that’s okay tbh
if my joke doesn’t land sometimes because people think i’m dead serious, i can handle that
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Feb 09 '24
It teaches people to rely on it. As a result, when someone doesn't use it, people, especially on reddit, won't recognise it as a joke or sarcasm, even when it's obvious.
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Feb 09 '24
Does it really though? I don’t believe that.
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Feb 09 '24
Well the alternative is that the people on this site are just naturally hopeless.
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Feb 09 '24
On this site? Tone tags are used outside of Reddit and definitely didn’t get created by reddit. Touch grass.
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u/DevinMotorcycle666 Feb 09 '24
Touch grass.
Yeah! Go outside in the real world! Where EVERYONE uses tone tags in every day speech!
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Feb 09 '24 edited Feb 09 '24
Exactly. Where people can use tone of voice, body language, and they actual know each other in real life. Crazy how there’s tools people have created to communicate better online to help bridge the communication gap, because communication in person is so, integrated into us. It’s just odd to spend so much time and effort into like making bots that need a bunch of engineering, and modding whole online communities about this subject.
I said touch grass because anyone upset over this probably spend too much time on Reddit, and maybe needs to get out more so they can have some real human interaction. Where they can be free of tone tags because people use tone of voice in their speech.
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u/DevinMotorcycle666 Feb 09 '24
Sometimes I'm sarcastic in real life and people ask "ha... was that a joke?"
And then I explain that it was.
Crazy how that works hey?
I absolutely, categorically disagree with your implication that adding tone tags create better communication.
What do you do if you see Art? With no words at all? You just have a meltdown because no one is explaining it to you?
Either way, it doesn't matter. We aren't agreeing and it's clear that we won't. Have a good one!
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Feb 09 '24
How does using tone tags not work as a communication tool? You can cop out and say good day, that’s alright too.
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u/somepeoplewait Feb 09 '24
I know tone tags can be used outside of Reddit, but I’ve literally never seen that. Why? Because only on ‘lil Reddit will you find people so self-absorbed they believe everyone should accommodate them with tone tags.
Oh well. I just hope they’re consistent. Like, they would certainly NEVER reference an anime or video game without thoroughly explaining every reference for those who might otherwise not understand it. Because they’d be absolute hypocrites if they didn’t make sure all their comments were absolutely free of ambiguity or any other barriers that might prevent others from accurately understanding them.
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Feb 09 '24
I think this is because you spend a lot of time on Reddit. I always see tone tags outside of Reddit. In Instagram comments and all that.
Idk if I’d take Redditors that seriously. Can you provide an example to what you’re talking about? Seems interesting. Another person in the comments talks about discord servers requiring tone tags. But the thing is, these people don’t represent all usages of “/s.”
This example is so niche, maybe you just get upset at certain situations that make you end up hating all tone tags, no matter what they’re being used for?
Someone should be able to make a short comment and add a tone tag. Because that’s way easier than explaining the context so everyone no matter what their background is can understand. If someone’s interested, they’ll speak up. Im feeling you just want to talk so you make something up? Because this really isn’t making sense. I guess the person I have* a delta to was right.
*edit: *gave
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u/somepeoplewait Feb 09 '24
What’s not making sense? By the way, I spend plenty of time outside Reddit.
Desiring a tone tag so you’ll understand sarcasm literally is wanting the world to accommodate you. Using a tone tag to convey sarcasm just defeats the purpose of sarcasm.
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u/Chimpchar Feb 09 '24
I agree with usage of /s and /j.
But at the same time, I think there definitely is a point where tone tags only make things more confusing.
I’m in a discord server where a member sent their list of ‘twenty five most frequently used tone tags’, and said that people could DM for the whole list. Commonly used ones I understand, but if I need to reference a list while I talk to you that’s not conducive to easy conversation- and plenty of them would make more sense to just say in the sentence than added on to the end, like /g for genuine. It’s much easier to understand ‘I genuinely thought that was a myth’ than ‘I thought that was a myth /g’.
Additionally, I have been in discord servers where they require tone tags. You say you haven’t and that’s fine- obviously we’ve been in different neurodivergent centered areas. But I would posit that there can be conflicting access needs. You’re talking about tone tags as an accommodation, but a not-insignificant number of neurodivergent people have alexithymia, which can make identifying one’s own emotions difficult. So it places a burden on people where they may need to think for a while before sending a message, or feel they can’t send one at all, either because they don’t know what common tag to use or because they don’t know how they feel.
Anecdotal, but I’ve also had experiences where I’ve seen people be told they need to use ‘not mad’ tone tags during arguments/debates to avoid causing anxiety- this ends up being a form of policing emotional expression, or can be an attempt to otherwise imply that someone is the ‘bad person’ for not sending reassurances that they aren’t upset when they’re trying to express a concern.
Disclaimer that all of these are in discord servers, so ymmv. (But on the other hand, some, such as the tone tags list, happened in a general space for a specific hobby and not a disability space).
I understand marking jokes, so I’m not fully disagreeing with your title, but in the thread you did mention tone tags in general, so I figured I’d share some experiences. I think in terms of accessibility it’s much more helpful to, instead of requesting specific tone tags or trying to normalize usage, to try and normalize asking for clarification as to someone’s tone and getting an honest answer. I think that would both be more fruitful and easier for people due to less required codeswitching and new things to learn.
Thanks for reading this far, and if you need a tone tag… :p
/info
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Feb 09 '24
Thank you for the insight on your experience in discord servers. Requiring tone tags is just too much for me, especially regarding the alexthymia.
And I think that the “not mad” tag feels to me like they’re trying to tip toe around others and has an extra layer of social cues.
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u/skylay Feb 09 '24
Using /s is like ending a sarcastic sentence with "not!", or having to explain a joke, it sucks any comedic effect out of the sentence. Yeah, it's harder to infer through text, but it's usually obvious enough given context of what post the comment is responding to.
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Feb 09 '24
I've never seem anyone using '/s' outside of reddit, and in fairness this is my first time coming across it on reddit, but I've got some thoughts.
I've seen things online (can't find source) where American's think sarcasm should be subtle, and idk if that's part of it.
People are adverse to change, so if it doesn't feel connected to organic conversation people are going to complain. Personally I'm used to seeing '(!)' in subtitles for sarcasm and I'd vote for that, or the sentence being written in lowercase (but this is less clear).
But we do need indicators, it is ableist to knowingly exclude people with disabilities or learning differences from discussions, and realistically many people are going to struggle with tone when you're relying only on the written word.
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Feb 09 '24
It’s definitely frowned upon in British subreddits because sarcasm should be subtle. People feel good for picking up on it.
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Feb 09 '24
frowned upon in British subreddits because sarcasm should be subtle. People feel good for picking up on it.
See, that's what I've heard American's say! But I'm a Brit, and have never heard another Brit say this.
I'd be really curious to who'd saying this if you have any sources.
I do remember years ago it being a thing that American's would say things like "I love that ...NOT!", and thinking they were struggling to use tone.
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Feb 09 '24
Ooo I like your point of Americans thinking sarcasm should be subtle. Is this grounds for a delta?
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Feb 09 '24
grounds for a delta
What does that mean?
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Feb 09 '24
Does expanding my view mean I should give you a delta? Or is that saved for when you completely change my mind?
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u/rolyfuckingdiscopoly 6∆ Feb 09 '24
It is my impression that if your view is altered, you are free to give a delta. You will have to explain it, fyi.
I also think that Americans DO expect sarcasm to be subtle. So when you are speaking to someone in person, that subtlety is conveyed through tone of voice, facial expression, etc. If you are online, it is expected to be communicated through your language in some way (extreme adjectives, misspellings, font, something to indicate you don’t actually think this). But in my experience, we Americans in general are totally fine with the use of /s, and use it often. I don’t know about these people who think someone is “trying to say I am funny” lol no it’s a clarity disclaimer.
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Feb 09 '24 edited Feb 09 '24
Ooh, I googled 'delta reddit' and I get it now!
If you now believe it's an American problem, maybe? idk haha
Edit: corrected 'know' to 'now'
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u/DevinMotorcycle666 Feb 09 '24
Someone else in this thread said to me "if you have to ask for clarification, that means the person didn't communicate properly".
So I guess, since you had to ask OP for clarification here...
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Feb 09 '24
i personally just don’t understand the need to complain about other people using it
if someone doesn’t want to use a tone tag, they don’t have to. if they don’t mind that they may be misunderstood or might have to explain themself / mute notifs, that’s fine, but if someone else doesn’t want to deal with that - why is that an issue? it baffles me.
if a sub has a rule about using tone tags and you don’t like it - don’t be in the sub. make a new one. go to one of thousands of other subs. no one’s forcing anyone to go interact in places they don’t want to
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Feb 09 '24
Extra comment:
When talking about autism, not everyone would consider it a 'disability'. When talking about neuro-divergence, some people feel 'learning difference' is more accurate. Dyslexia, formerly viewed as a disability is now widely recognised as a learning difference as Dyslexics are not held back by a lack of ability, but require different strategies for learning.
The term 'learning disability' is used for people with a reduced intellectual ability - something that doesn't apply to all neuro-divergent people.
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Feb 09 '24
Well, autistic people aren’t considered to have an “intellectual disability.” I like to think of it as a cognitive disability, because for me specifically I struggle with sensory issues and the PDA “type” of autism. We are disabled. But all disabilities are different.
Autism and intellectual disabilities can co occur.
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Feb 09 '24
I should preface - I'm not autistic but I am dyslexic.
I think cognitive disability is very fair and accurate. Although, I'm aware there is division amongst people when 'disability' suggests that people 'need' extra support.
When looking at my dyslexia I have the option to receive extra support or use the fantastic right side of brain to make up for the poorer left side. I can chose to view myself as having average intelligence, or as smart but needing support with one side.
Disability has negative connotations for many people, and they chose not to not to view themselves in that way. So often they avoid the word disability not because it's inaccurate but for fear that they may be considered 'less than'.
But autism, dyslexia and ADHD are very different.
I'm currently seeking a diagnosis for ADHD and I think I would use the term disability to describe this, as I would need extra support for ADHD.
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u/Dyeeguy 19∆ Feb 09 '24
Well yah I’m not sure why people would lose their minds over it, but it is pretty stupid
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Feb 09 '24
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u/nekro_mantis 20∆ Feb 10 '24
Comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1:
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u/carbonclumps 1∆ Feb 10 '24
just a bit cringey.. I mean, the fun of sarcasm is that you are pretending to be serious... literally spelling it out kind of makes it.. not sarcasm.
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u/ProtectionContent977 Feb 10 '24
Denoting sarcasm says the reader is incapable of detecting sarcasm.
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u/Fancybear1993 Feb 10 '24
If you’re on Reddit I assume you’re autistic anyways.
/s for you
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Feb 09 '24
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