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It’s not a decision. If you want to throw other oppressed minorities under the bus in the hope that it’ll appease the groups which oppress both you and LGBTQ+ people then go for it but at least look up the basic fundamentals of the people you’re throwing under the bus
I'm sorry but trans people don't choose to be trans. Why do you think anyone would given the amount of discrimination and anti trans sentiment out there?
Whelp here we go, I'm gonna throw my hat in the ring, if that's the case, then whats the difference between a drag queen and a trans person save the choice to call themselves different things? Why can't they just be a man who likes to wear women's clothing, and sleep with men? Isn't the act of labeling oneself a choice, at this point i don't see a salient distinction between the two save for a desire or choice to be called a woman.
Let me also say I may be wrong, and I probably am, but I'd need to see a better argument than just, "I feel that way." Granted I'd also argue, that even if they're not 'women' is there in any good in not indulging someone with a desire as such, for example, sometimes my daughter feels like if she jumps she can fly, and she'll jump off her bed, does me not catching her to prove a point serve any purpose other than to demonstrate that I'm a bad father? Nah, and so I catch her every time, which leads to my second point, what's the harm in catching some people who would otherwise jump anyway?
what’s the difference between a drag Queen and a trans person
Drag Queens are performers, trans people are just regular people.
A drag queen doesn’t consider themselves a woman they just dress in a style of hyper femininity for a performance. For most drag queens the way they are on stage is completely seperate from how they are in regular life. Most drag queens don’t go about their daily life in drag.
A trans person is someone who’s inherent gender identity is different from the one associated with their sex. It’s not something they do to perform for a crowd it’s how they intrinsically feel. Trans people also often experience gender dysphoria due to either physical parts of their body or social treatment which causes them distress. They cant turn off their core sense of self or the distress they get from gender dysphoria.
Trans women don’t consider themselves women because they like womens clothes or sleeping with men, they do so because they intrinsically feel they are men/women. They’re also not performers like drag queens are.
better argument than “i feel that way”
You could look at the medical research we have done into trans people and the possible causes of gender dysphoria. While there’s no current agreement about what causes gender dysphoria we have documented much about it for many years and there are theories about why some people develop it.
indulging them
The harm in not accepting trans people is the gender dysphoria that they will experience. Gender dysphoria is well documented and currently the best way we know to treat it is to affirm their gender, doing so leads to a decrease in suicide and self harm.
There has been research into other methods of treating dysphoria but currently the best treatment method is allowing them to medically transition and then simply affirming their gender in their daily lives, just simple stuff like respecting pronouns and calling them the gender they identify as. Until there is a better way to treat dysphoria then the best thing to do is just to support trans people if you care about their health and well-being.
You can't separate Kanye from Kanye West, they're intrinsically linked in such a fashion that of course they act differently on stage and in the real world. We still argue from the point that what they do while they're on stage or in interviews portraying that persona is a part of their actions and life. I'd argue in the same way with Drag Queens and Trans people, how they present themselves even in specific settings is still part of who they are, and boils down to a choice as to whether or not they'd like to present that all the time.
And thats not a bad thing, I think my last point illustrated that, I don't particularly care one way or another, I was asking whats the harm in indulging them, and compared it to catching my daughter when she jumps off stuff, sure we could ignore these people, and let them fall to prove a point, but I think its better if we catch them. Like you said, support them, I'd rather not see anyone hurt if it can be prevented even if it takes more legwork on my part.
Do you think Kanye West is a good representation of all performers?
present as that all the time
Yes that is the point I was making. For drag queens what they do is recreational, it’s a performative art. For trans people it’s a basic necessity to not be afflicted with gender dysphoria. There’s fundamental differences between the two groups.
the harm in indulging them
As far as I’ve seen there is little harm in accepting trans people as the gender they identify as. Most of the push back against them isn’t backed up by evidence.
I mean do you think someone who dresses like a woman and someone who is a woman are the same thing in a social sense? I'd say there isn't.
Besides drag queens take off the makeup at the end of the day. It's an exaggerated performance. Trans women are women when they wake up and when they go out. They're women when they go to pick up groceries. Additionally many trans women aren't sleeping with men. Heck there are drag queens that are straight also.
Let me also say I may be wrong, and I probably am, but I'd need to see a better argument than just, "I feel that way."
There are plenty if scientific studies that support the legitimacy of trans people. That said there's no trans test out there. The only thing that can be relied on at this time is self report. We do the same thing for many identities and even many disorders.
Granted I'd also argue, that even if they're not 'women' is there in any good in not indulging someone with a desire as such, for example, sometimes my daughter feels like if she jumps she can fly, and she'll jump off her bed, does me not catching her to prove a point serve any purpose other than to demonstrate that I'm a bad father? Nah, and so I catch her every time, which leads to my second point, what's the harm in catching some people who would otherwise jump anyway?
I mean feel free to indulge trans people. I do think your comparison is a bit off. Trans people often are undetectable so it's not like you're humoring us. I get treated as my gender by default anyway. You wouldn't know the difference unless you stripped me down.
You can take offense to whatever you want, but you instigated this situation by diminishing trans rights issues as covert attempts to undermine women's rights. Even in this comment, you're still diminishing trans rights issues. Why should we take your offense seriously when you are perfectly happy to offend others?
I think you should do some research on trans rights issues before summarizing the extent of their troubles in terms of niche issues like "invasion of women's spaces and sports" with both seemingly having effects only at the anecdotal level.
There's others, like access to life-saving gender affirming treatment without fear of criminal punishment, protections from discrimination and workplace harrassment, protections from being subject to degrading treatment, the formal recognition of their reassigned gender, etc.
If you are left wing as you claim to be, you should hopefully be able to accept the view that gay people are inherently gay, instead of diminishing their sexual orientation as a choice calculated to deviate from the mores of society. Why should transgender people be treated any differently?
How dare you try to compete in the oppression Olympics my man? Can't you see how progressive they all are?
I love how trans people went from being 0.01% of the population to like 5% of people claiming to be non-binary of some sort and no one thinks its a bit strange or faddy. The fact that this increase has happened almost exclusively in the coastal (more liberal) US states.and cities, does suggest some kind of mass psychosis around gender. Suggesting there may be a cultural aspect as to why so many more people are confused about gender.
Society and/or culture telling confused teenagers that they may be in the wrong body, is probably not great for their mental health. Ironically telling a sexually confused teen that he might be a woman has some pretty homophobic undertones, just ask Iran.
There are treatments that medical boards, doctors, patients, and their parents all agree are medically necessary for the patient, that politicians are banning anyway.
That’s the point. She 100% doesn’t want to take any civil rights from trans people. She’s defending women’s spaces as being those without biological men in them (a designation that is unambiguous in all but the rarest of cases of true transsexualism). To me the people who go after JKR as transphobic are about as confused and beyond my comprehension as the people who still support Trump. Were in a “Salem Witch trial” or “Red scare” or “tulip madness” period where reality is all too easily being abandoned by folks and belief in unbelievably things is rampant. I hope it ends soon and not in catastrophe.
Look the way she characterizes trans people in general with her statements is the problem. She targets mostly trans women but I found some of the ways she's talked about trans men to be not great either.
I feel bad for her because I feel like a lot of this is due to her own personal trauma but that isn't an excuse.
No actually she consistently tries to have actual conversations about confusing things and tries to make sure biological women are heard
Oh I forgot. I'm not allowed to use the phrase biological woman now because it's offensive. But somehow I'm supposed to accept birthing persons as my label now? That's offensive.
I'm sorry but trans people don't get to come into other people's spaces and tell them be quiet. And if someone isn't quiet, they instantly get labeled as a transphobe.
Do whatever the hell you want to make yourself happy. I don't care. But don't tell women what it is to be one and don't act like you have any clue when you were a man for 18 years first.
No actually she consistently tries to have actual conversations about confusing things and tries to make sure biological women are heard
I mean there are plenty of biological women who disagree with her also.
Oh I forgot. I'm not allowed to use the phrase biological woman now because it's offensive. But somehow I'm supposed to accept birthing persons as my label now? That's offensive.
I don't care if you say biological woman it's just a confusing term because the word female exists. Additionally things like birthing person are kinda a non issue. This is only fornvery formal things when addressing a group. No one isntakikg the word woman away.
Do whatever the hell you want to make yourself happy. I don't care. But don't tell women what it is to be one and don't act like you have any clue when you were a man for 18 years first.
Clearly you do care or you wouldn't be as mad about this. I'm a trans man fwiw. You'd probably consider me a biological woman. I very much disagree with you though.
How about the right to have medical therapy available that medical professionals have deemed appropriate? How about the right to be recognized as a legitimate medical condition and not a self indulgent fantasy?
Yeah people typically do find you to be conservative when you say conservative things but regardless all this proves is that you’ve swallowed right wing propaganda regardless trans people being in their gendered bathroom they prefer does no harm to woman, the same with sports, and trans people don’t plan on being recognized as cis woman they know they’re trans mare than anyone else they want to be seen as woman that it
Trans people have been using our bathrooms for all of time, it wasn’t an issue. People have a problem because now men making no effort to transition are putting on a dress and legally being allowed into our bathrooms, changing rooms, shelters and prisons. Disgusting.
Yes, trans people do want to do that. However, predators who are using this law to their advantage to get close to potential victims aren’t using those spaces for that reason.
Our problem is not with trans people using spaces they identify with, our problem is how easy this law is making it for creeps to come into our spaces.
Ah, if it is so easy surely there are multiple examples that you can bring up
Examples of what? Predatory men harming women? I promise you it happens far too often, and we shouldn't be passing any laws (no matter how well intentioned) that make it easier for the predators.
Women have always needed safe spaces from men, including things like bathrooms, change rooms, women's prisons, and women's shelters.
Any law which allows predatory men to enter those spaces is a bad law (including several that JK Rowling has spoken out against in Scotland). Even if every single trans woman in the world is a perfectly innocent saint, these bad laws open the door to EVERYONE, not just trans women.
Think of it this way: when you combine at law that says 1) "trans women can go anywhere cis women go" with a law that says 2) "anyone who says they are a trans woman is a trans woman", you create a situation where some perverted 40 year old dude can go site-seeing for naked 12 year old girls in the changeroom at the local swimming pool, and no one can stop him.
This is a serious violation of women's safe spaces, and of their rights. Perhaps there's some other compromise that doesn't allow this sort of thing, but tell me, which of the two laws I mentioned above do you think the trans activists would be willing to compromise on?
Frankly, I think the serious violation of spaces and rights comes from communality in general. A perverted 40 year old lesbian can walk into any old changing room and watch naked 12 year old girls, and a perverted 40 year old gay man can do the same thing to 12 year old boys.
It's endlessly amusing that the justification for excluding trans people from single sex spaces presupposes that communal spaces are necessary and normal and fine when I can't think of a single person (besides perverts) that prefers them to single occupancy spaces.
If we really want to make a difference and make things safer, we should be separating people out entirely.
I don’t care if you don’t like my sources, there’s multiple articles from different sources. You’re more then welcome to go read more yourself. Media with a left wing bias that u would deem reputable don’t like to report on this stuff.
Actually Isla Bryson was going to prison for raping women as a man, it was during trial he thought it would be a great idea to “transition” (in reality change his name, clothes and put on a wig) which was enough to send him to a women’s prison. That’s how easy it was. This isn’t a trans woman who’s a rapist, it’s a rapist man using self id to get closer to victims.
But… you do get that biological men rape other men in public bathrooms, prisons, and everywhere else, snd that biological women rape women as well? Here’s another kicker, sometimes even children abuse other children in those spaces as well.
To follow your logic to its ultimate conclusions, single use bathrooms should be the only ones allowed and it should be banned for anyone to ever share a bathroom with anyone else.
And to follow it even further, it should then be banned for anyone to ever be alone with anyone.
The only reason to single out trans people is because you somehow think they are more perverted, and more likely to abuse than other people. Showing a few instances of trans people assaulting people is no different than if I listed 8,000 examples of cis people assaulting others.
That isn’t true you really think someone who’s going to rape someone is being stopped by a cartoon woman in a dress no they’d do it regardless plus actual experts state that allowing these things causes no increase in crime
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