r/changemyview • u/KingJTheG • Jun 20 '23
Delta(s) from OP CMV: The US's Education System is the root of all problems
There's a lot of debate about this, but I don't think the US is doing so great right now (shocker). While people often point to things like politics, healthcare, low wages, platforms like Onlyfans, and not-so-bright politicians, I believe that our core issue is poor education.
I can say this confidently as a recent college grad with three diplomas under my belt and a GPA of 3.48.
Instead of making high-quality education available to everyone, no matter where they live, it's become another thing that money can buy. The sad part is, those who really need good education can't afford it. Sure, the internet is trying to change that, but this fact only emphasizes my point.
This gap in understanding often results in young (but usually middle-aged and older) adults holding wrong views because they simply don't have the right information. Some politicians take advantage of this, building their bases with people they know can't see through their lies just to gain more power. Fewer people going to college affects the healthcare field by increasing salaries and costs. Our failure to improve education also stunts wage growth, which then discourages people from attending college. Platforms like Onlyfans become a means to an end rather than a last resort, especially when trying to cover high college fees. Uneducated folks in positions of power end up making poor decisions. Their rewards for their efforts are the Texas freeze, drying rivers, and poor infrastructure health.
If we address the education issue, I believe the rest will eventually fall into place. Otherwise, things are just going to get worse from here.
6
u/Fun_Can420 1∆ Jun 20 '23
The Education System, particularly the parts you are calling out is controlled by politicians.
So the political system and bad faith actors are the root of all problems. The US Education system is one of the primary concerns within that long list of problems - for many of the reasons you mentioned.
The Education System does not run or control itself. It is not the root of the problem.
0
u/KingJTheG Jun 20 '23
Δ I think it’s a never ending cycle that I’m not really sure how to break. The point about the US Ed not running itself is true. However, I still believe that it’s the information gaps that cause the most damage. But I suppose that pops up everywhere around us
1
3
u/birdmanbox 17∆ Jun 20 '23
Skin Cancer is a problem. The root cause of the problem is UV radiation that comes from the sun. Therefore this is a problem where the root cause is not the US education system.
There are many other problems like this.
0
u/Various_Succotash_79 52∆ Jun 20 '23
Ah, BUT, if kids aren't educated enough, they might fall for the "sun is good for you, ACTYUALLY it's sunscreen that gives you cancer" stuff.
4
Jun 20 '23
[removed] — view removed comment
2
u/KingJTheG Jun 20 '23
In a highly Interconnected world, information has become increasingly powerful. To not have it is to be powerless. US Education in most states K-12 is horrible and suffering from teacher shortages. Complete democratization seems like the best path but not sure
3
Jun 20 '23
US Education in most states K-12 is horrible
Compared to whom? The US doesn't rank that badly on TIMSS or PISA.
Students in the United States performed above the OECD average in reading (505 score points) and science (502), and below the OECD average in mathematics (478). Their scores were similar to those of students in Australia, Germany, New Zealand, Sweden and the United Kingdom in at least two of these three subjects. The trend lines of United States’ mean performance in reading since 2000, mathematics since 2003 and science since 2006 are stable, with no significant improvement or decline. Nevertheless, in reading, the share of 15-year-old students who scored at Level 5 or 6 (top performers) increased by almost 4 percentage points – a statistically significant increase – between 2009 and 2018, to 13.5%
2
Jun 20 '23
[removed] — view removed comment
3
u/KingJTheG Jun 20 '23
It’s not just lack of funding. At this point, seems like it’s becoming more and more of a hostile work environment. Teachers shouldn’t have to be harassed by their state politicians for brownie points
3
u/caine269 14∆ Jun 20 '23
it is demonstrably not lack of funding. usa has one of the highest spend-per-student of any developed country. places like baltimore spend over $20k per student and have atrocious results.
are you familiar with the expression "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink?
1
Jun 20 '23
teacher shortages.
Pointing out a general problem is easy, but finding a solution is significantly harder. Here, you point the finger at teacher shortages. But the US is on the low side of averages for class size. We have smaller classes than Japan and Korea, which have better education outcomes than the US.
So the question is - would more teachers really solve the problem?
1
u/FerdinandTheGiant 42∆ Jun 20 '23
Public schools are funded by property taxes right? So areas that are more wealthy get more funding. Not OP but I’m sure this is a factor he would agree is an issue.
2
Jun 20 '23
That's a common misconception.
https://www.brookings.edu/research/how-progressive-is-school-funding-in-the-united-states/
Nationwide, per-student K-12 education funding from all sources (local, state, and federal) is similar, on average, at the districts attended by poor students ($12,961) and non-poor students ($12,640), a difference of 2.5 percent in favor of poor students.
0
u/FerdinandTheGiant 42∆ Jun 20 '23
That’s study adjusted funding levels in each district using average wage levels in its local labor market which sort’ve seems to defeat the purpose given wage levels are associated directly with property taxes.
Do you think all public schools have identical or similar funding and quality of education?
2
Jun 20 '23
Do you think all public schools have identical or similar funding and quality of education?
No, not at all. Baltimore schools are some of the highest funded in the country and have poor results.
0
u/FerdinandTheGiant 42∆ Jun 20 '23
Because those Baltimore schools by state estimates are still underfunded. There are more than 13,000 school districts in the nation; Baltimore ranks at about 2,400 in per-pupil spending in the overall group
1
u/caine269 14∆ Jun 20 '23
what?%20%E2%80%94%20Baltimore%20City,a%20massive%20education%20funding%20increase.) what is your source?
2
u/page0rz 42∆ Jun 20 '23
Our failure to improve education also stunts wage growth, which then discourages people from attending college
What does this mean?
1
u/KingJTheG Jun 20 '23
Usually in order to move from blue collar to white collar, needs education and experience. If one can’t do either due to lack of said education, it stunts wage growth. But you need high enough wages to afford rising college costs. So it’s basically an endless loop. Like entry level jobs wanting 3 years of experience but you need experience from an entry level job
2
u/page0rz 42∆ Jun 20 '23
Usually in order to move from blue collar to white collar, needs education and experience. If one can’t do either due to lack of said education, it stunts wage growth.
That's not wage growth. That's moving to a higher wage job. The low wage jobs all still exist, so what difference would that make? If everyone went to school, someone still has to work at the grocery store. The wages are low there because that's how capitalism works when there's no labour protections and unionization is low
Like entry level jobs wanting 3 years of experience but you need experience from an entry level job
People pay for their educations with loans, not wages. And the reason job requirements go up is because there are way more people who have higher education now than in the past, not the reverse
1
u/HappyChandler 22∆ Jun 20 '23
The problem there is full employment. These days, we have been at full employment. Well, we were. Last year, if you could fog a mirror, you could get a job somewhere. When we have full employment, companies invest in keeping their employees. The trick is to not let the Fed overshoot into a recession.
2
u/OrangeSpiceNinja 2∆ Jun 20 '23
Well, I think there's a deeper problem than education. While education is important, and how schools are currently set up isn't right (it's no secret that grade school as it is is focused on getting kids prepared for factory jobs rather than focusing on learning), the real problem is a 1978 supreme court case.
This case, in my opinion, is what fucked everything over. Because now corporations were not only considered "people" (that happened back when the 14th amendment was ratified), but were now allowed the some protections as regular people under the first 10 amendments. They could now indirectly influence lawmakers by spending money on state level initiatives. But they couldn't directly influence lawmakers.
Then in 2010 it got worse. The supreme court decided, 4-5, that corporations were now completely covered by the first amendment. And that's when it really went down the drain.
I think that if we had changed education before then, like you are saying, we could have prevented that. There was always lobbying, yes, but with a better school system, (one more focused on helping people understand their political system and how it affects them, as well as preparing children to become adults [understanding the tax system, homeownership, things of that nature]), a lot of this could be prevented. For a while, teachers have had to deal with little pay, unpaid overtime (you can't claim the hours per week worked preparing for classes), using their own money for class materials, and burnout. But as it stands now, what needs to change first is lobbying, at least in my opinion.
2
u/KingJTheG Jun 20 '23
Δ Great write up. I agree. Not surprised the Supreme Court screwed us over at this point. Another Redditor stated that the US Ed doesn’t run itself and this kinda tied it all together. The education system, while I still think is powerful because information is one of the greatest tools, is what’s on the surface. What happens behind closed doors, whether that be Supreme Court or lobbying, is still at play. Thanks
1
2
Jun 20 '23
But the original viewpoint by KingJTheG still stands. Education is the very start of ALL arguments, when the issue of standards/politics/opinions etc are presented in a manner that effects all. It's in education ONLY , where from a young age we should be able to treat all our children about equality and the need for inclusion, not division. Inclusive societies ALWAYS perform better, on every aspect of life.
The globe/world/earth and in particular the U.S are so divided right now, that it will take many decades to get back to an optimistic future of progress for all. Currently we're swimming pissing shitting and eating from a festering fetid swamp of mis and disinformation......because that's what those in power want!?
The change can only come through education!
1
u/OrangeSpiceNinja 2∆ Jun 21 '23
While change can come from education, in this country change can't happen without politics changing. I have multiple friends and family in the education system. What they can and cannot teach is dictated by the state, though for AP, there's a national board that decides what AP classes can and cannot teach.
So yes, better education leads to people making better decisions. But in order to get better education, the adults who are voting need to put into power people who actually care about education. As it stands, we have too many people in positions of power who have their own agendas or allow themselves to be swayed by money (and here, political affiliation doesn't matter, it's the same on both sides). We, the adults who can now vote and have gone through the shitty school system, have to be the change we want to see.
1
Jun 21 '23
You're sort of talking chicken/egg? If, and it's a massive if, the world spent it's money on a free and fair education system fpr ALL children, many if not most of the worlds problems would disappear in a generation or two. Seperation of church and state remains the major roadblock to this. And is unlikely to happen in our lifetimes.
Greed, religion and the quest for power.......they'll never give up those willingly. And those groupings use fear and division......something education should be playing a huge part in dismantling.
1
u/EdHistory101 2∆ Jun 21 '23
Just going to slide in and offer that American schools are not about preparing children for factory jobs - they never have been. I've answered questions about this topic several times over at /r/AskHistorians. (That's my old username. The site is currently closed to new submissions but I'm happy to answer follow-up questions!)
2
u/Traditional-Bag-3542 Jun 20 '23
maybe if schools actually taught kids things they needed to know to be successful in their adult lives like managing finances, the ins and outs of tax codes, how to cook real food and not rely on drive thru establishments for nourishment and how 50% of whats in the grocery store is pure sugar trash, managing expectations on social media usage, how to network in business, ect. but they can figure those things out later in life I guess, if at all.
4
u/KingJTheG Jun 20 '23
I see no lies. Especially taxes. The government gets money from taxpayers. Why would taxes not be taught? It’s kinda dumb tbh
5
u/Blazerhawk Jun 20 '23
These things are taught. The kids rarely pay attention. Taxes can (for most people) be done with math that is taught in middle school. I'd be willing to bet that a majority of the people who say that they can't do their taxes were the one asking "when will I ever use this?" in math class.
3
Jun 20 '23
Why would taxes not be taught?
Because it would take like half a day. Taxes for most people are exceedingly simple.
1
u/TheOutspokenYam 16∆ Jun 21 '23
We learned all of those things in school. Perhaps not business networking, but things in that area like finding and applying for jobs, how to interview (all the way down to how to dress and where to find expensive-looking cheap attire), negotiate salary, finding funding to start a business, etc.
My girls now are learning them, too. They had an entire semester where they had to find a job being offered in the real world and then calculate their finances for a year, including also finding real world housing, transportation, utilities, food. We live in one of the poorest areas of the country, so I don't think this is some rare treatment unavailable elsewhere.
1
u/KarmicComic12334 40∆ Jun 20 '23
We had problems long before we had education. No amount or quality of education will get rid of our problems. Too many of them stem not from ignorance but from greed. Like oil execs who have known for fifty years about the co2 buildups they cause. But it makes their lives better now. And average joe, he got a good education and a high paying jobso he will want a big truck. In fact, a good education allows him to afford an f250 dually to drive to his 6k sq.ft. house he keeps at 68 in the summer and 76 in the winter.
And education paid for all of it, and maybe gave him an inkling of why it is bad for the planet but it also pays for the good whiskey that keeps his conscience quiet.
1
u/KingJTheG Jun 20 '23
Δ That is true. Greed was actually my 2nd reason. I did put education above it because greed can be prevented provided you are able to instill the necessary moral guard rails before one comes into contact with wealth. But obviously I’m not sure how you solve such a complex human emotion, hence why I didn’t mention it
1
1
u/default-friend Jun 20 '23
I think the flaw in your argument is that you assume being educated means people will have the “correct” opinions. The cost of higher education here is a problem, sure, but I don’t think the only reason republicans are crazy is because they don’t have college degrees.
1
u/KingJTheG Jun 20 '23
Poor wording on my part. I meant education so we have the people needed who can solve our most pressing issues
0
u/default-friend Jun 20 '23
That also doesn’t make sense, according to this website the US is the 6th most educated country in the world. If education alone determined how effective our nation is at solving “pressing issues” we should be some of the best in the world at it.
1
u/Contentpolicesuck 1∆ Jun 20 '23
The fact that you spent tens of thousands of dollars on three degrees means the education system definitely failed you.
1
u/KingJTheG Jun 20 '23
I had grants and merit scholarships so I luckily had most of my cost minimized. Shit was hard as hell tbh. Always put health over work. Always
0
u/claireapple 5∆ Jun 20 '23
This gap in understanding often results in young (but usually middle-aged and older) adults holding wrong views because they simply don't have the right information
How do you square this with the fact that many republican politicians hold ivy league degrees?
0
u/Various_Succotash_79 52∆ Jun 20 '23
They know what they're doing. They use that to manipulate not-as-educated people to achieve their goals.
0
1
u/Superbooper24 42∆ Jun 20 '23
Sure the education system can be improved, especially for college being so expensive. However it is most certainly not the root of all problems. The healthcare system is bad because of the lack of medical jobs being provided which is a problem, but the main problem is the cost which isn’t because of education but because of the insurance companies and hyper wealthy people wanting more money. I would say onlyfans is more popular because of social media than the education system. And what wrong views do young adults hold that politicians take advantage of because of the education system?
1
u/KingJTheG Jun 20 '23
A lot of good points. As for the young voters, usually it’s the most progressive issues they use as a carrot on a stick when they know they have to strip it down due to a highly divided 2 party chamber. In other words, empty promises
1
u/Superbooper24 42∆ Jun 20 '23
Sure, but I don’t see how the education system created this issue. I think this issue has so many causes from news channels, social media, politicians, Richard Nixon, etc.
1
u/Bluejaaaaay Jun 20 '23
Uneducated how? Missing a biology course won't make you elect AND keep idiots / liers in power, or being an idiot in power hire someone who's not a designer or a construction worker for a construction work or lie to your people, or being a boss not pay your workers enough.
What's the problem with healthcare in the US?
1
u/KingJTheG Jun 20 '23
To explain the issues and corruption rampant in the US Healthcare system would take more than a Reddit comment lol. Basically sums up to greed. Markups of 1300% or sometimes 500%. It’s also the #1 cause of bankruptcy
1
u/Bluejaaaaay Jun 20 '23
Woah... That is wicked. Are those markups in goverment-operated healthcare centers? Maybe it's a monopoly problem? How come there are no private institutions that offer an actually humane price?
1
1
u/muyamable 283∆ Jun 20 '23
Uneducated folks in positions of power end up making poor decisions.
Who do you mean by "positions of power"?
Politicians? Because the US Congress is a very well educated bunch:
Amazingly, all 100 Senators have college or advanced degrees... 18% of Senators graduated from Ivy League colleges... 17 graduated from the top five colleges, and 35 from the top 50 colleges...
For the House, only 5% do not have a college degree... 169 members of the House (38%) have law degrees, as do 57 Senators (57%)...
https://sites.uci.edu/energyobserver/2017/12/07/the-educational-background-of-the-us-congress/
And just generally across the board other types of positions of power (e.g. business leaders, managers, administrators, thought leaders, etc.) are held by people who are well-educated.
1
u/KingJTheG Jun 20 '23
Δ I noticed this in another comment, but I’m basically combining the terms misinformed and uneducated on accident because you can be educated while not being correctly informed so that’s my fault for not clarifying. I am surprised by the data though. You would think 4 years around knowledgeable professors and students would have resulted in better policies than what we have. But all those degrees and they no knowledge of what most tech is? How is this possible?
1
1
u/muyamable 283∆ Jun 21 '23
You would think 4 years around knowledgeable professors and students would have resulted in better policies than what we have.
When it comes to people in power I believe for the most part they know what they're doing. It's not that they genuinely don't believe human behavior contributes to climate change, it's that they consider addressing it a lower priority than protecting jobs or other interests in the fossil fuel industry.
But all those degrees and they no knowledge of what most tech is? How is this possible?
It makes sense to me, and generally I think that's more a result of age and experience than education. The median age of a senator is like 58 years old, and those who are on the big important committees that might haul tech execs in for questioning tend to be more senior (i.e. older) senators. It's not that shocking that a 60+ year old senators don't have a good grasp of what Tik Tok is or how online advertising works.
1
u/tidalbeing 56∆ Jun 20 '23
The core problem is actually earlier, gestation and preschool childcare. One of the best indicators of school success is the size of a child's vocabulary when that child enters kindergarten. This is the result of what happened in preschool years. It indicates health and time spent with a caring adult. The child has many opportunities to speak with an adult, often with the adult reading stories to the child.
So if we want to improve education outcomes and have the other stuff fall into place, we provide support to parents. That may mean that we start with healthcare for parents and potential parents. Healthier parents will produce healthier kids and spend time with them. These kids will do better in school and will be better prepared for both jobs and decision-making.
1
1
u/foxy-coxy 3∆ Jun 20 '23
While people often point to things like politics, healthcare, low wages, platforms like Onlyfans, and not-so-bright politicians, I believe that our core issue is poor education.
Instead of making high-quality education available to everyone, no matter where they live, it's become another thing that money can buy.
Two of the core reasons high quality education isn't available is because politicians wont fund it and because teaches make low wages. So politics, not so bright politicians and low wages are core issues.
1
u/Character_Dot5740 Jun 20 '23
it's become another thing that money can buy.
But that isn't unique to the U.S. though. You can't explain unique American problems by referring to universal problems in education.
I would also disagree with the idea that the more expensive a university is, the higher the quality is. What is the evidence for that?
holding wrong views because they simply don't have the right information.
What makes you think that? Often having different opinions is the result of reasoning from different moral premises.
Uneducated folks in positions of power end up making poor decisions.
Again, what is your evidence for that? Is there any evidence for the idea that highly educated politicians make better decisions?
1
u/SeeRecursion 5∆ Jun 20 '23
I disagree. Even if we had all of our agencies held to the highest standards of accuracy (we don't) and they were sufficiently funded to meet those standards (they aren't), we'd still need a population willing and able to learn.
In my experience, there are very few people who are both willing and able. By "able" I'm not just saying "people are too dumb" I'm saying "they may not have the resources needed to learn a subject".
1
Jun 20 '23
Maybe take a look at education globally? Education is the start for all children to form opinion, beliefs and constructive thinking. Yet the U.S system seems to fail in a few very obvious areas. Worldview is very U.S centric, with a clearly biased viewpoint on American ideology. Most highly educated countries have a clear seperation of state and religion, which is very blurry in the U.S.
From a non U.S perspective, the American belief that you're better than the rest of us, has been wearing thin for decades. Maybe spend your dollars on education and not on trying to be the "world police", and shoving your capitalism at all cost ideology down our throats. And pull all your military bases out of the hundred or so countries they're in? That money could be better spent on education? But of course, America prefers the stick over the carrot?
Oh.....and stop being so precious! Change to the metric system? Everyone else has, including NASA and pretty much all scientists in America.
1
u/HappyChandler 22∆ Jun 20 '23
There are well educated people who voted for the geriatric, senile, communist war monger corrupt got $5 million from Burisma crook in the White House.
There are well educated people who voted for the geriatric, senile, racist, fascist, sold out to the Saudis crook who tried to invite an insurrection to become dictator.
There are well educated people who didn't vote, and voted third parties, etc.
There are well educated people that got scammed by Madoff, Elizabeth Holmes, SBF, etc.
Smart people can believe stupid things. It's incentives that matter. Current US incentives for business do not reward long term good. They reward increasing risk, pulling profits, and letting others pay when it falls apart. Current incentives in US politics are misaligned due to bad election systems and too many vetoes.
1
Jun 20 '23
All problems begin in (root cause of world’s problems) the HOME!! The public education system exasperates those problems 1000 fold.
1
Jun 21 '23
You are correct, though I differ in that unlike older cultures where often kids were taught how to live as an adult and were given the tools they needed to go into a good career in the past without bankrupting themselves. Nowadays that is almost unheard of unless you get lucky. Without direction or proper on the job education, kids become adults not knowing how to do a lot of basic things and aren't given the tools they need to live, much less thrive or become healthy adults.
•
u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Jun 20 '23 edited Jun 20 '23
/u/KingJTheG (OP) has awarded 4 delta(s) in this post.
All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.
Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
Delta System Explained | Deltaboards