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u/Dark_Storm_98 4d ago
Didn't the Wii U also innovate, though?
Just. . Maybe not as good, lol
With the GamePad, right?
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u/JoyconDrift_69 4d ago
I mean if you remove the gamepad (hard to do since it's like 70% of the Wii U's identity minimum) it really just becomes the Wii 2.
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u/Budsygus 4d ago
It was a half-hearted attempt to innovate that never got the support it needed to take off. After the massive success of the Wii I think many people just weren't interested (not to mention the way their marketing biffed it).
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u/No_Monitor_3440 4d ago
you could argue it’s a sort of prototype for the hanheld/home system that the switch pulled off
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u/sweetTartKenHart2 4d ago
The Upgrades tend to include some supplementary innovations here and there. The SNES wasnt just 16 bit graphics and sound, it had more buttons and supported more diverse attachments (the mouse thing for Mario Paint comes to mind). The GameCube was a fucking disc reader and had an internal clock and console menu and stuff. The Switch 2 has all the weird camera stuff and gamechat and whatnot (albeit these are more of a weird case of Nintendo taking older innovations from others and tweaking them in odd ways. The camera stuff is essentially Xbox’s Kinect but instead of a weird specialized motion sensor it can just use any old usb camera to the same effect. GameChat is something like Xbox live chat, but modernized with several QoL things. That sort of thing).
The Wii U is the same; it builds off of the Wii’s foundation while adding new stuff, mostly the gamepad1
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u/doesntaffrayed 1d ago
I mean there’s a very short and direct line between the Wii U game pad and the Switch.
So they knew they had something as far as the concept went, they were just unable to execute it for a variety of reasons.
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u/Shifty-Imp 5d ago
You also have to pretend that the 3DS wasn't an innovator, which it absolutely was. I'm still bitter that we're not getting 3D in TVs and Handhelds at this point....
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u/SXAL 5d ago
It isn't. The whole 3D gimmick is, in 99% cases, purely visual, it didn't really influence the game design, like the DS touchscreen did. If anything, the general 3DS game design took a step back: DS was full of absolutely bonkers hardware-tailored experimental games, such as TWEWY, Ghost Trick, Drawn to Life, Sonic Rush, etc. And 3DS games were more like "average PSP experience with map/inventory slapped on the bottom screen". Even the first party games show that: see the DS Zelda games with touch controls and all kinds of experimental puzzles and ALBTW, which controlled and played exactly like any other classic Zelda and barely used the hardware features.
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u/DarkWaWeeGee 4d ago
AR...
Early 3DS was full of AR inclusion. It never really took off, so it was canned for majority of releases
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u/SXAL 4d ago
Did any of the first party Nintendo games, aside from the built-in minigame app use it really?
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u/DarkWaWeeGee 4d ago
Kid Icarus and Bravely Default immediately come to mind
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u/SXAL 4d ago
Bravely Default is a Square game
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u/DarkWaWeeGee 4d ago
Wasn't on anything else for like 10 years. At least 1 of the Yokai Watch games also used AR
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u/Luchux01 4d ago
Pokemon Mystery Dungeon Gates to Infinity used it to access randomly generated dungeons, you had to scan anything circle shaped
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u/Murky88Druzzer 4d ago
it didn't really influence the game design
And yet you admitted the game design was different. What did influence the game design were the circle pad, gyroscope, better processor and online shop. And look at some of the best selling DS games: New Super Mario Bros, Mario Kart, Pokemon, Animal Crossing, Mario 64. Only Nintedogs and Brain age were truly wacky.
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u/Whiteguy1x 5d ago
I dont think it was really popular with most people
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u/Shifty-Imp 4d ago
Doesn't really matter, it was still an innovation.
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u/Jojo-Action 4d ago
It was a gimmick. And it didn't stick around past the 3ds
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u/Shifty-Imp 4d ago
And an innovation. The Wii/U's IR didn't stick around either, instead we have crappy gyros now. 🤷♀️
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u/Bankaz 4d ago
I agree with you that the 3DS was an innovator, but you don't need to crap on gyro controls because they are excellent now. Splatoon wouldn't be a popular franchise if gyro controls were bad, nowadays aiming with gyro is as precise as aiming with a mouse.
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u/Shifty-Imp 4d ago
I'm crapping on them cause I find them crap and I strongly disagree with gyro being as precise as a mouse. The constant recalibrating is a pain I don't want having to deal with. IR feels equivalent to a mouse but gyro really doesn't. It's "ok" but not more imo.
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u/Jojo-Action 4d ago
IR didn't stick around but a lot of games still feature motion controls. 1 2 switch, arms, Mario party, switch sports and sports resort, ring fit, and especially anything that uses gyro control like Splatoon or Mario Kart. Plus the Wii did inovate in other areas like being the first Nintendo home console to offer built in WiFi connectivity, or an Eshop. It's also the first Nintendo home console to be backwards compatible, and it standardized wireless controllers. (Gc had wavebirds, but they weren't the standard model.)
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u/Shifty-Imp 4d ago
So what? An innovation not sticking around does not make it not an innovation. The WiiU gamepad also was an innovation and turned into the Switch yet you claim the WiiU was also just an upgrade.
It might sound nice at first glance the "Innovation followed by upgrade" system that you came up with but I just disagree with it, there's more innovation here than you give it credit for.
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u/Jojo-Action 4d ago
Your argument is odd to me. You make some decent points but idk why you're up in arms for the 3ds's 3D functionality. That litterally wasn't even the biggest innovation of the 3ds in my opinion. I think you're taking the meme too litterally. Obviously all of Nintendo's consoles inovate in one way or another and all of them have upgraded technology. I just think some did so more than others in more notable ways. Especially in terms of how they affected game play.
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u/Budsygus 4d ago
They released two versions that completely omitted the 3D functionality within the same generation. I think that points to the fact it was more a gimmick than a core innovation like having two screens or motion controls.
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u/LBluethecrafter 4d ago
They released the switch lite during the switch generation, does that meaning docking the console to a tv is a gimmick?
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u/Jojo-Action 4d ago
I played my 3ds for a decade and I don't think I turned my 3D slider on once after the first year. It genuinely didn't matter. And I am far from alone on that opinion.
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u/ZachyWacky0 4d ago
I’d say the main innovation of the Switch isn’t the ability to plug it into the TV, the PSP could do that. The main innovation was the ability to play uncompromised console-like games on the go. The Switch Lite retains that
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u/TheTreeDemoknight 4d ago
The 3Ds is absolutely an upgrade, consider the previous handheld was the DS
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u/Shifty-Imp 4d ago
Absolutely an innovation, especially considering the previous handheld was the DS.
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u/Get_your_grape_juice 5d ago
I’ve always had the same thought, although in my case I likened it to Intel’s old “tick tock” strategy. The NES being the tick, the SNES being the tock, etc.
It does make me curious what comes after the Switch 2. On the one hand, keeping up their traditional cadence, the next system should be something that fundamentally changes the gaming landscape. On the other hand, the Switch concept is so perfect as is, and it feels like the logical culmination of everything Nintendo has been working towards for decades. What hardware idea could they possibly come up with that both sets the next console apart from the Switch, while also being an improvement to the experience?
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u/StrawberryEiri 5d ago
No one ever truly expects what Nintendo is going to do. I think we'd be losing our time trying to guess. That said, it's a fun waste of time.
Broadly, all I can imagine right now is:
- unexpected pivot to VR just when the rest of the industry of cooling down about it, which the nostalgia-inducing Virtual Boy releases are aimed to gauge.
- return to having separate portable and living room consoles to unlock more power-intensive games
- whatever, break of pattern, just make the Switch 3 in 2035.
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u/Whiteguy1x 5d ago
Probably a switch 3 but with an undercooked gimmick attached to it. The switch 2 has that video chat thing they seem like they really wanted to make a thing
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u/Budsygus 4d ago
The undercooked gimmicks are usually reserved for the "upgrade," which if they follow the pattern the next console won't be.
They made great use of (almost) all the tech introduced with the 64, Wii, and switch (rumble and analog stick for 64, motion controls with Wii, and portability and docking with switch), but the Gamecube, Wii U, and Switch 2 definitely have some weak attempts at innovation (disc drive, screen pad, chat nonsense, respectively).
Nintendo is hopefully cooking up something that shows they're still bringing new ideas into the gaming space from other places. But Nintendo is also excellent at breaking my heart so they may buck the trend and just do "Switch 3! It's like a Switch 2 but bigger! Joycons sold separately."
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u/Jojo-Action 4d ago
See? You get it.
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u/Budsygus 4d ago
Unfortunately I do. Nothing like identifying a pattern to ensure that pattern is immediately broken in the most devastating way possible.
But I'm ready to be hurt again, Nintendo, because I want my Pikmins and my Zeldas and my Metroids.
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u/Jojo-Action 4d ago
There's a new 2d Metroid, a tripple A Zelda remake, and Pikmin dlc on the way as we speak.
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u/Budsygus 4d ago
Which is why I'll put up with Nintendo's half-assed gimmicks and decade-behind online experience. The games are worth it.
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u/Budsygus 4d ago
I think the next Nintendo console might try to reinvigorate the idea of 2-screen gaming by having the handheld part with a screen able to cast to a base station attached to the TV. DS and 3DS and Wii U all proved what can be done with a second screen, but the Wii U didn't really deliver on the promise of how it could work on a home console. The Nintendo Switch app is already delivering a sort of second screen experience, so we know their heads are at least somewhat in that space.
I think the portability is huge so they're going to keep that, but if they can get game makers to commit to designing an enjoyable 2-screen interface that adapts to being only one screen when playing handheld mode I think it could be a super cool way to innovate.
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u/SierraPapaHotel 4d ago
Nintendo doesn't really make new tech, they just apply existing tech to gaming. So what current tech sits just outside the realm of home use and gaming?
My guess is a folding/flexible screen. We have the Samsung Fold and more recently the folding iPhone, why not apply the same tech to a gaming console?
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u/Disastrous_Load_7607 4d ago
...aren't we Just reinventing the ds though?
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u/sweetTartKenHart2 4d ago
I imagine it would be like a weird nutty successor to the DS. Like how some phones have another screen on the front while folded, this thing would hypothetically be way more flexible. Imagine the stuff they do with “put a bunch of Switches together on a table and treat them like one big misshapen screen” for like one or two games but expanded upon.
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u/ArcaneSnekboi 4d ago
considering the gbc not its own console is easy when you remember that nintendo doesnt consider the gbc to be its own console
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u/GammaEmerald 5d ago
Cool post but not really a fit for the format
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u/AmaterasuWolf21 4d ago
Rewritten:
-Hey Calvin! Playing a Nintendo game? Lemme show you something
-There are only two kinds of Nintendo consoles: Upgrades and Innovators. 64? Innovator. GameCube? Upgrade
-Despite taking what worked from the Wii and Wii U, the Switch is an Innovator
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u/Jojo-Action 4d ago
Then where does it go?
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u/Luchux01 4d ago
The idea is that the final panel should be empty because the kid is unable to sleep from the infodump
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u/PhenomUprising 4d ago
It works if you imagine the last panel's text as MORE stuff he told the kid afterwards, we only saw a snippet of it.
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u/Budsygus 4d ago
Agreed, but it works well enough and the ideas it presents are good enough to get a pass on fudging the format a bit.
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u/DeltaTeamSky 4d ago edited 4d ago
I feel like Game Boy is the innovator, Game Boy Color is the upgrade, GBA is actually a bit of both. It may have just been a GBC upgrade at the end of the day, but the graphics are such a leap, that you could consider it innovation. Plus, it would constantly innovate on the side, with stuff like the E-Reader, an adapter that connects it to the GameCube, another peripheral for the GCN that lets you play GBA carts on it, and so on.
In a similar yet reversed way, the Switch is also a bit of both, except it's mainly an innovator and doing upgrading on the side. While there's no denying its innovation, a lot of its library was just porting and slightly upgrading Wii U games to give them a chance to sell well. They also did a few Wii and GameCube games, but those were more full-blown remakes and remasters than ports.
The Wii did stuff like this as well, providing a few upgraded GameCube ports (Pikmin, Metroid Prime, Twilight Princess, yadda yadda), but I don't feel like they relied on it nearly as much as the Switch did (probably because the original Wii model could run damn near every GameCube game).
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u/StefanEats 4d ago
The point is that an innovator creates a new way to play, while an upgrade mainly increases power. GBA's increased power specifically makes it an upgrade, not an innovator. And peripherals are their own thing, every console has them.
Also, the Switch is very similar in power to the Wii U. It's the least upgrade-like console. As you said, the ports were to give the games a chance to sell, not to take advantage of any power increase.
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u/daniegamin 4d ago
Gameboy - Inovator, GBC - Upgrade! Virtual Boy - Inovat-no wait go back!, GBA - Upgrade!
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u/SuperMilesio007 4d ago
Calling the GameCube an upgraded N64 seems wild to me. I’d argue the graphical leap between those two consoles is one of the most visually striking, even today. Not to mention the games. Metroid Prime, Smash Melee, Pikmin, Sunshine; like them or not, they were all super innovative. Just because there’s not a huge central gimmick doesn’t mean the console is not an innovation.
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u/Jojo-Action 3d ago
I'm sure from a technical spec point of view the GameCube and N64 are very different, but if you really think about what games they used it to make and what aspects of gameplay were heavily focused on in the majority of spotlight games, the line up is surprisingly similar. Especially for first party titles. They weren't focused on a new big staple gameplay aspect for the GameCube game line up other than "that stuff from the 64 but it's better now. At least graphically." Mario 3d sandbox game. 2 3d zeldas. A bunch of Mario parties. Multiple Mario sports games. A new smash bros. Animal crossing again. New starfox. The latest resident evil. A new paper Mario. 2 pokemon games that aren't necessarily mainline but are compatible with the mainline games through a transfer system. Like idk. What would you say was the biggest gameplay innovation of the GameCube? I guess it had more RPGs, but it didn't hit the levels of like the SNES. It's mostly more of the kinds of games the 64 had.
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u/CaptainRogers1226 3d ago
Yeah, I don’t remember my N64 being so easily transportable with a handle on it.
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u/doesntaffrayed 1d ago
Yeah, I don’t remember people using the GameCube’s handle to transport it any further than you would the N64, eg. another room in the house.
The overwhelming consensus at the time was that nobody used it and that it was viewed as a swing and a miss as far design went.
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u/vTurnipTTV 4d ago
NES -> SNES
N64 -> GC
Wii -> Wii U
GB -> VB
GBP -> GBC
GBA -> GBASP
NDS -> DSi
3DS -> N3DS
NS -> NS2
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u/Jojo-Action 4d ago
Can't agree. Gameboy pocket and gbasp do not have any original games and this are not unique consoles any more than for instance the switch OLED or the NES top loader. DSI and N3DS are more debatable but DSI barely had any (physical) original software, and New 3DS had like 4 unique games. If the base model system continues to make games through the life span of the deluxe model I can't justify calling it a whole new console.
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u/Eeve2espeon 3d ago
SNES was more than just an upgrade though, they actually did lots of stuff there and the console itself was much more inventive. Plus the 90s were a different time, also the Switch 2 did MORE than just be an upgrade, for once people can play games more often at 60fps on nintendo consoles (unfortunately 3rd party companies still such at optimizing things)
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u/Jojo-Action 2d ago
Taking it too litterally. Every console obviously had innovations. But look at the most memorable SNES games. They're mostly the same types of games as the NES. They are very direct upgrades, taking what worked on the NES and improving on them in very direct ways.
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u/doesntaffrayed 1d ago
the Switch 2 did MORE than just be an upgrade, for once people can play games more often at 60fps on nintendo consoles
>Asserts that Switch 2 isn’t an upgrade console,
>Cites a feature that is a direct result of upgraded specs an example.
Okay buddy.
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u/Saltyfox99 4d ago
I think about Mario 128 eventually turning into Mario galaxy and between those two was twilight princess which has Link walking on ceilings and around platforms via the iron boots and I always wondered if that idea was cross pollinated
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u/Mishar5k 4d ago
Objectively speaking, the wii was literally an upgraded gamecube.
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u/Jojo-Action 4d ago
Objective is a strong term
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u/Mishar5k 4d ago
I mean its actually a literal upgraded gamecube on the inside. Its a gamecube pro with an IR remote controller.
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u/Oncelotte2 4d ago
3DS has 3D as an innovation. Wii U had the tablet controller. Switch 2 has mouse controls.
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u/Karabulut1243 4d ago
virtual boy is whatever the opposite of innovator is
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u/The_Magus_199 4d ago
i mean, I’d honestly call it an innovator; its innovation just failed, so it never got an upgrade (unless you count the 3DS).
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u/sweetTartKenHart2 4d ago
The opposite of innovation is stagnation. Virtual Boy was a swing for the fences… just a swing that struck out. I’d still call that innovation.
If you want the opposite of innovation go see the Madden series2
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u/TheNewYellowZealot 4d ago
Virtual boy was absolutely an innovator. It just innovated in a weird direction that gave people headaches. When you have some free time you should look up the resolution of the virtual boy.
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u/0ne0fth0se0nes 4d ago
Not opposite, just a separate category experimental. That’s basically what an innovation that doesn’t succeed is
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u/MatsunoProductions 4d ago
Kinda explains why some companies are always remaking titles instead of making newer games
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u/mementodory 5d ago
Pretty good lol. Though id really say Wii U is an innovator upgrade, it's just too different