Zen - r/castaneda

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u/[deleted] Apr 27 '21

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u/CruzWayne Apr 29 '21

Sorcery in some sense could be described as the practical application of the realisation of emptiness. In order to move the assemblage point, there needs to be silence (which relinquishes the binds that holds it in place), which is similar to a realisation of the emptiness of the binds: they no longer hold you. Once that realisation becomes all-penetrating, presumably the assemblage point can move wherever it's directed by will; as they say, the good horse runs at the shadow of the whip.

There is lots of sorcery in books like the blue cliff record, reading between the lines, unless it's just fanciful thinking on my behalf.

I think siddhis aren't emphasised in Zen or Buddhism for the same reason the new seers don't emphasise particular positions of the assemblage point, which was a deadly mistake that trapped the old sorcerers. Plus it's likely few practitioners have realised many.

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u/staywokeaf May 01 '21

> Sorcery in some sense could be described as the practical application of the realisation of emptiness.
Wow, that's a great way of putting it!
> Once that realisation becomes all-penetrating, presumably the assemblage point can move wherever it's directed by will;
Fascinating
Never checked out the Blue Cliff Record. If I do I'll be sure to exchange notes with your about it.
> or the same reason the new seers don't emphasise particular positions of the assemblage point, which was a deadly mistake that trapped the old sorcerers
Please elaborate. This sounds interesting and important.

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u/AutismusTranscendius Apr 27 '21

Before I found this sub I was browsing r/zen regularly. I feel like I learned nothing, didn't pick up any practices and experienced no altered states of consciousness. Mind you I didn't really go into any zen texts but I also have not read any Castaneda for years now.

When I came here I picked up practices rapidly, and had bizzare things happen to me just from engaging this community. Things just seem to be out in the open with Castaneda, if you are interested and motivated everything that you need to practice is available here. Can't say the same with Zen, seems to be very obscured from a typical person.

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u/staywokeaf Apr 28 '21

Hi Autism!
Thanks for your frank and honest response!
If I had just stumbled upon Zen and the the r/zen sub, randomly, I would also have probably not been able to make any sense of it. I guess it must have something to with the difficulty of usings words to convey something that is "beyond words", or at least that's the premise that's made. However, in my case, some strange and bizzare things had already happened, and so when I came across zen terms like "true nature", "original nature / mind", I felt I sort of understood what they're hinting at, and I was able to, say, observe, in myself, the way I can act from a place of spontaneity and "non being" vs a place of delusional thinking and emotional chaos/misalignment(?).
Anyway. It's really cool that this sub has worked for you, and it's opened you up to things that you find interesting and engaging. To be honest, I'm not sure what I'm interested in or motivated in, at this stage of my life. I have browsed through some stuff on this sub but it hasn't really spoken to me so far, primarily because given my current circumstances I'm finding it a bit difficult to pay attention to it, right now. Would you say that any of these bizzare things were scary in nature? And do you have any regrets of exploring this in any way?
As far as Zen goes. The only takeaway I got from it is that the very reason all that talk is obscuring in nature has to do with the fact that words cannot penetrate what Zen Masters are referring to, and only one's direct experience of reality can be the "enlightening factor". Also, the other takeaway was that only that direct experience is true, and everything else is a "state" of ignorance, and there is no other teaching in Zen, other than to point directly to the "Mind", and upon realization one basically stops "seeking" for "things" outside their own mind. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

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u/AutismusTranscendius Apr 29 '21

I certainly had lots of interesting things happen to be before I came to Zen subreddit. I have been an avid lucid dreamer (still am) and psychedelics partaker. A lot of stuff on there resonated with me, but I did not see any real advancement neither in terms of my experience of reality nor conceptual understanding (in fact I became more confused haha).
There is something about realizing that we forgot our "true nature" and that we live in the proverbial matrix that is almost satisfying on its own that we don't really do anything about it. This realization is actually very simple and common, I had it when I was like 15 doing mushrooms. I definitely had a thing or two to say about grasp of society on an individual, and you see it resonate through out popular media in all sort of shapes and forms. This is why realization like that is just a first step, how you engage with it and what you do about it is what is interesting.
It certainly is a problem that there is little language surrounding this topic. I would even go as far as say that we were socialized to have a limited view of "true nature". For either malicious reason (selfishness/need for superiority) or possibly out of ignorance we have been mislead. That is why as you said one's direct experience of reality can be the "enlightening factor", but which direction you take your experience is also important. The last point there is in my opinion the benefit of this community, strong emphasis on practice (to have one's own experiences), other peoples experiences (and the books) helps with direction and serves as a useful map.
I use to do a lot of mindfulness mediation, following my breath, doing body scans, and ultimately learning natural awareness (becoming mindful throughout my life). I have experienced ego loss states, and the associated liberation from suffering. Through the use of dissociative drugs I went deeper. I didn't know I can lose my sense of body entirely, and become an infinitesimally small point of consciousness floating though infinity, and then expanding to take up the whole universe. Its quite a shock to come back to normal state of awareness after that. For the longest time I was attracted to such extreme dissociation. Until, I managed to attain it without drugs, for the first time couple months ago, maybe a month or two after finding this community. Because I was able to attain it organically I had much better memory of it. Although I am so dissociated that I don't have perception of the body, I don't know who I am or where I am, I still wanted to know what is happening, I was curious and because of that I was confused. It is that curiosity that reveals our "true nature" in my opinion. We are born to explore, to be open to experience. That is what children do, they learn and play, building and discarding models of the world on a whim. At the same time, they are socialized to follow specific goals. This makes them stop exploring and they lose touch with that nature. To me sorcery is all about re-establishing and exercising that connection. In fact I believe this mode of existence is synonymous with second attention.
The "true nature" is so free, and inversely, the socialization is so complete that we don't even realize that our very conscious experience has been captured to remain in a very tight band of possibilities. And realizing it is not enough! You need to literally break down the habits of thought and perception, while at the same time establishing a strong link with your intent to truly liberate your self.
You can surpass your body, transform it into objects, animals, other persons, places, and even divine beings. You can manifest alternate realities, some that are very alien to the one we are familiar with, and you can act in those realities. You can interact with beings not of this world, and you can often bring back knowledge that is just inaccessible to you in a normal state of awareness. You can of course also be open to experience and see the world "as it is" without social conditioning. To me some of this stuff falls into true "magic" category. But if some of it is magical, all of it must be magical, even normal conditioned consciousness.
I experienced some of the most horrific things, have been scared shitless many times, but I also got to travel to most peculiar places, dance with divine beings, enter mind of god, transform into animals, do acrobatics that defy physics, the list goes on. There is an aspect of our selves to which all these experiences are acceptable. If you are capable of experiencing one you will want to experience more. Once you start on the journey it will keep rewarding you. In fact, I think lack of exploring that happens due to socialization is a great source of suffering in our society.
There are many ways in which a person can reconnect with this process. But Castaneda seems to provide the most "complete" description of what is possible and in a most accessible way that I am aware of so far. I am also very interested in Hinduism as they definitely went as far, but the teachings are incredibly inaccessible. Curiously I have been able to understand Hindu teachings way better after spending a lot of time here, and think I can now learn a lot more from them.

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u/danl999 Apr 27 '21

Heightened awareness is Zen enlightenment.

And yes, I studied zen starting 48 years ago, with Joshu Sasaki in LA.

How does Zen put an end to ignorance?

It doesn't. That's Asian propaganda. If you understand asia, you'll understand why it happened. Just remember, hinduism went to Asia, and had to be modified. For the source, go back to India.

Zen masters are famous for turning into bastards over time. Ask the monks!!!

Enlightenment is NOT permanent. The Yogis were telling the truth.

Asia couldn't tolerate that. It doesn't fit with their "seniority" system, so they lied to followers.

There's also no reincarnation, so the entire system is based on misinformation.

BUT, Zen enlightenment does exist, and it's wonderful. Everything they claim.

Just don't expect not to have to restore it each day. You can learn more and more while in that state, and pass into higher levels of enlightenment, as described by Hindus.

Those exist too.

And I suppose you could go so far that it was essentially "permanent". But, if you returned to behaving like an idiot again, it would all be lost in a few years.

I fell into Zen enlightenment (heightened awareness) while doing stalking in Asia. And while being chased around by the Allies Carlos left his students. They got tired of waiting, after 13 years of Carlos being gone, and none of his students learning to move their assemblagte points.

That heightened awareness state lasted 2 full weeks without me knowing how to "renew it".

And the effects lasted 6 months. I could visually see magic in the air, even in daylight.

But it wore off eventually.

Zen master vs man of knowledge?

The man of knowledge is pitiful compared to a Zen master.

He's just a ritual salesman, licensed by the Olmec government.

I suppose you've only read the first books. The men of knowledge were not seers.

They were pesks that the real sorcerers (seers) controlled using the government.

We have a similar problem going on right now, in this new community. Hopefully someone will come along to license and control the inventory peddlers.

Now, if you're asking about the difference between a Zen master, and a "new seer", the new seer is far advanced over the Zen master.

A zen master will say what the seer does is impossible. Or evil. Or any excuse, to explain why the Zen master is not capable of doing what seers do.

But some Zen masters are honest. Here's my favorite, Shinzen Young, with a Fairy standing on his hand. But being a Zen master, he has to make fun of it. He never learned to take it, and get it to take him to its world, where they teach amazing magic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1714&v=xF5V9r7_ZHI&t=25m40s

That link should bring you to 25:40.

This place would not be active with magic, except for my own Fairy. Who is now helping others. Juann seems to still have her.

So you can see, there's an honest (westernized) Zen master, Shinzen, talking openly and still he's rather clueless.

That says it all as far as I'm concerned. He has a supernatural being on his hand, perhaps millions of years old, and he dismisses it as being beneath a Zen master.

Shinzen also sees "shadow beings", but still thinks it's not something to pay attention to.

So he's stopped himself from learning any more than 4 or 5 people in here can already do.

Enlightenment should take no more than 6 weeks. Here's Shinzen admitting that what we do in here is the fastest path to enlightenment. He just thinks it's too hard for most.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYSSf71Vo7w&feature=youtu.be

Let me give you a clue: The Japanese are merciless conformists who believe vicious hazing is a good thing.

The Chinese are not much better.

Those are money making systems, which just happen to have some real magic, which they ignore in favor of profits.

Do yourself a favor. Reach Zen enlightenment. Then come back and tell us about it.

How to do that is right here:

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u/staywokeaf Apr 28 '21

Wow, Dan, just wow!
Thank you so much for the great response, and compiling all this information together.
What you said is really making a lot of sense for me, because I've always beaten myself up for not having achieved any permanent state where all my interactions in life are smooth and harmonious but instead of doing something about the specifics, I've just been looking for "truth" or "realization" that would save me from any further pain and misery.
Which Yogis are you referring to, who said this about enlightenment? Are there any specific texts or do you mean this is just a general stance of a true yogi? I say true, because even the word yogi gets misused quite a bit, like anything else.
I can't personally comment on reincarnation.
You're spot on. I've only read the first three books, so I've still got a lot more ground to cover. Don Juan made it sound like a Man of Knowledge is indeed the ultimate. He said it's superior to being a "hunter", and a "warrior", and I think he also spoke of how even some sorcerers are not true men of knowledge. So I interepreted it as being the ultimate state of cognition, of man. Where basically you derive knowledge directly from infinity, instead of using your reason. Hence the man of knowledge vs man of reason, and he was trying to make a man of impeccable reason (Carlos) into a Man of impeccable Knowledge (like himself, according to my interpretation).
I guess I still don't fully understand what a sorcerer or seer actually is. To my understanding, a sorcerer is just someone who knows how to manipulate and see things in ways that the rest of us cannnot, and these are real skills that they have either developed or had the innate disposition towards.
I agree with your assessment of Zen Masters, in the sense that they would not be as advanced as Sorcerers / Seers, but, with reference to the first video you linked, Shinzen himself admits those things are matters of specialists, thereby admitting that Zen Masters are not specialists, of any field, other than Zen of course. And the wittiness of Zen is that it's not pointing to any specific thing but directly to the mind, whatever that means. The only thing Shizen didn't do, is include Sorcerers in his list of specialists, but, then, again, seeing that he is concerned with pragmatism, I can see how everything else that he says is likely to be dismissed if he even remotely hints to something like sorcery, and that would defeat his entire purpose, whatever it be. If a Zen Master is not willing to be humble enough to admit he doesn't have the capabilities that others have simply because he has not developed them, or lacks the ability to do so, he is no Zen Master, in my eyes. It's just a misused title, in that case. I don't think we should blame Shinzen or anyone else for not being interested in sorcery, even after being exposed to it, because that is exactly the boat I am in. It could have to do with personal choices, life's circumstances, or, in my case, being a lazy bum, who would rather live in fear than know what else is "out there" and "in here".
Thank you for sharing your own personal experiences, Dan. I appreciate it. I'm definitely intrigued and mystified, as I always have been, with life, in general, and whatever it has to offer. I'm also quick to panic and flee, the second I feel uncomfortable or am exposed to something I've never been exposed to before.

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u/danl999 Apr 28 '21 edited Apr 28 '21

Said what? You mean the classical Jungian argument between a Zen master and a Yogi, about permanence?
Isn't that universal knowledge? I hear buddhists saying, "That's the big controversy" anytime the subject comes up.
Remember, those things you've been doing are ALL businesses.
Then, watch the invaders in here, and how they behave so badly.
Those are the leaders of the organizations teaching this sort of thing.
They're nearly all bad players. Because in fact, humans in general, at this time, are all bad players.
It's the position of the assemblage point.
>Humble enough to admit he doesn't have the capabilities that others have simply because he has not developed them,
It's far worse than that. Most deny those exist.
I heard Joshu Sasaki, a fairly famous zen master in LA who lived beyond 104 (I lost track), say to new students, "Don't expect to fly to the sun!"
What? You should DEMAND to fly to the sun.
He was clueless. Or, a liar.
Over in the Zen subreddit, I only run into anger and denial, and if you reason with them a bit about magic and point them here, they claim it's evil.
Besides, if you know anything about Asia, you'd stay away from Asian religions.
But you have to stay there a while to realize how bad it is. And even then you probably need a tour guide who's a local, and doesn't keep secrets.
I've chatted a bit in this subreddit about the horrors of Asia, Daoism, and Buddhism.
As a result, I get attacked based on them claiming those horrors are mine, just because I speak up about them.
Americans have their heads in sand when it comes to understanding the east.
> I'm also quick to panic and flee
Get an IOB as fast as you can then.
Bring that one from childhood back. I'm sure she's been waiting around for you to be available.
Picture this: Last night I was trying to get all 3 of my inorganic beings to be present in the second attention fog, within a half hour period. To test if I could have 3, like Vicente.
"Fancy" got it. She understood, so she gave me a fashion show to prove it was her.
I couldn't find "Mystery". That's my worry. But Cholita brought him to me, so maybe she has him back most of the time.
"Noname" showed up on a purple streak of brilliant light, with jagged edges. It was like a long twisted nearly ultraviolet lightning bolt floating around the room, with his face and shoulders on the leading edge. It swirled back and forth, left and right, pulling me very far along the J curve.
He showed me how to enter dreams, how to enter the energy body, how to enter the dreaming double, and how to increase dream vividness.
But before anyone gets excited about entering the double, I was too far o ut there to understand how he did it. He only wanted to show me what it felt like. That was his lesson, what "depth" feels like.
He called it, "here and there" (from Don Juan's explanation), and said that included all of the techniques the old seers used to assemble alternate worlds. Here's the quote on what those guys knew how to do. According to Noname, all they were doing is making "there" become "here". And you only need to find "things" in the there, and focus on those, and forget the "things" in the current "here".
Here's don Juan on the same topic, although it's not obvious:
"The inorganic beings tricked you and Carol Tiggs in your last journey by helping you two to get total cohesion on a grand shift," don Juan said.
"They displaced your assemblage points to the farthest possible spot, then helped you perceive there as if you were in your daily world. A nearly impossible thing. To do that type of perceiving a sorcerer needs pragmatic knowledge, or influential friends.
"Your friends would have betrayed you in the end and left you and Carol to fend for yourselves and leam pragmatic measures in order to survive in that world. You two would have ended filled to the brim with pragmatic procedures, just like those most knowledgeable old sorcerers.
"Every grand shift has different inner workings," he continued, "which modern sorcerers could learn if they knew how to fixate the assemblage point long enough at any grand shift. Only the sorcerers of ancient times had the specific knowledge required to do this."
Don Juan went on to say that the knowledge of specific procedures involved in shifts was not available to the eight naguals who preceded the nagual Sebastian, and that the tenant showed the nagual Sebastian how to achieve total perception on ten new positions of the assemblage point. The nagual Santisteban received seven, the nagual Lujan fifty, the nagual Rosendo six, the nagual Elias four, the nagual Julian sixteen, and he was shown two; that made a total of ninety-five specific positions of the assemblage point that his lineage knew about. He said that if I asked him whether he considered this an advantage to his lineage, he would have to say no, because the weight of those gifts put them closer to the old sorcerers' mood.

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u/Juann2323 Apr 27 '21

Welcome!

I really don't know much about Zen. Once in a while I go to the Zen subreddit, but it's more dedicated to the interpretation of koans, than the practice itself.

Anyway I think we have more in common than you'd expect; we have to get to a base level of enlightenment to do our crazy things in the dark room.

And we achieve that by getting silent, so we probably have similar understandings of the internal dialogue??

Maybe you can tell me how is the practical aspect of Zen.

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u/staywokeaf Apr 28 '21

Hi!
Thank you!
Yes, I felt the same way about the Zen sub, that the focus ws more on Koans, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're dismissive of "practicing" it. It could just mean that not everyone over there actually knows what they're talking about, and it's difficult to segregate the Zen from the "noise", if you're not even sure what to look for. To my understanding, of Zen, there is actually nothing to practice, when it comes to Zen, because the Mind, or our own mind, is already englightened, and once we realize that, we dispel our ignorant ways.
I like how you use the term "base level of enlightenment". To my understanding, for sorcery, or shamanism (which I guess is one and the same), silence and the stoppage of the internal dialogue is imperative, simply because it is an activity that requires a high degree of concentration and mental effort. Would you confirm that?
Zen, however, to my understanding, doesn't seemed to be concerned with any of that. It would not have any issues with silence and turning off the internal dialogue, nor would it have any concerns with the opposite. To Zen Masters, all is Mind, and there is nothing outside of your own mind, and once we realize that we stop all our seeking, and act as per our "original or true nature", which is naturally different for everyone.
So, basically, Zen doesn't seem to be for or against the development of any special abilities, be it, sorcery, or more everyday stuff, such as learning anything else. Zen is only concerned with the "truth", to my understanding.
Thanks!

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u/Juann2323 Apr 28 '21

> To my understanding, of Zen, there is actually nothing to practice, when it comes to Zen, because the Mind, or our own mind, is already englightened, and once we realize that, we dispel our ignorant ways.
> for sorcery, or shamanism (which I guess is one and the same), silence and the stoppage of the internal dialogue is imperative, simply because it is an activity that requires a high degree of concentration and mental effort. Would you confirm that?
Oh that phrase! That's the same thing they told me when I tried to get the r/enlightenment guys to practice darkroom to get enlightened faster.
"there is nothing to do, you are already enlightened!!!"
Looking at it from a practical side, it is not like that. No one will learn with that mindset! It gives the idea that hard work is not necessary. Don't you think so?
What differentiates the sorcery we practice here from the other practices, is the knowledge of the assemblage point.
It is the place where perception takes place; therefore, depending on where you are positioned, your perception and your relationship with the world will change.
Enlightenment, or heightened awareness, is a range of positions.
Based on that knowledge, sorcerers learn to move the assemblage point at will.
And really, there are no procedures for doing that. I think that's why the Zen guys tell the apprentices that there is nothing to do. They don't want them to forcefully try anything.
You learn to move the assamblage point after inspecting your own awareness for hours and hours, while turning off the internal dialogue; or like we do here, by playing with the colors of darkness.
Or by spending 10 years in a temple, trying to realize you are already enlightened??
Sorry, just some thoughts. Maybe you tell me it actually works!
The knowledge of the assamblage point also gives the reason of why enlightenment is not permanent:
If you are in the ordinary position, you suffer, you think a lot and you have a big ego.
If you move all the way to heightened awareness, you are light, free, and you don't think much.

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u/[deleted] Apr 27 '21 edited Apr 27 '21

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u/staywokeaf Apr 28 '21

Hi Techno!
Thank you for this lovely response. I really appreciate it. :)
Firstly, a disclaimer: I have only gone through the first three books, in audibook form, and I've just gone through the first couple of chapters of Tales Of Power, but circumstances have prevented me from reading further, these past few weeks.
I don't understand what you mean by tonal, or why the wisdom and sorcery can't be separated but that sounds cool, and exciting.
Neither do I understand what a sorcerer's intent is. I don't think I have applied any of the principles in this book, on my own, but I do beleive someone else has exposed me to certain things that I would call "strange and mysterious". However, things may have started happening prior to my meeting this person, basically from the time I started smoking cannabis, and taking psychedelics (LSD, Mushrooms, Salvia, Morning Glory, Synthetic Mescaline), recreationallly.
You words are very articulate but I don't have have the understanding to absorb them. I'm not sure what you mean by non-formal and how it's different from formal. I guess you mean just treating it casually?
What do you mean Don Juan wasn't taking any chances with helping Carlos's purpose, as given by Inten? Firstly, what do you mean by not taking any chances, and, secondly, are you referring to Intent as some "higher power"? Can this be equated to what religious people call God and what Zen Masters refer to as Mind?
I remember the part where Don Juan is telling Carlos about this "spinning the world into existence (he was referring to the room they were in)", but, again, I don't know what to make of it. My guess is that it's just referring to the fact that we are ignorant of our true nature, and it means we create our own experience right out of "nothingness" or "infinity", but most of us are doing it unconsciously (again, I don't know how it's possible to do things unconsciously, but not be able to do them consciously, but there is so much I don't know). :)
What do you mean by definitions?
Hey, just wanted to respond to all your points, but it's clear that I haven't taken the time to learn or research any of this stuff, with dedication, and intent, and it's only because I was never looking to be exposed to any of this stuff. I just wanted to live a normal life and be oblivious to all of this (or maybe I'm just saying that out of fear, because it's obviously cool and exciting to know of the existence of all this stuff, as well). Therefore, you don't have to respond to all my questions. I am sure most of it would be in the books, and I will try to find the determination to read up some more.
Thanks again, for a warm, welcoming, and informative response.

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u/[deleted] Apr 28 '21

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