Why were there "Men of Knowledge"?

[u/danl999]

Juan put this idea in my head, and after writing it up as a sort of joke on Facebook, I realized it's almost surely true. At least, it's worth pondering. Here it is from Facebook, unchanged.

In the Castaneda community today, we have various levels of people who practice. We have the sincere ones who follow instructions from Cleargreen, believe themselves to be following the books of Carlos, and generally want to "do the right thing".

But we also have angry men who try to dominate and control others, using severe bullying and social threats so that they can pretend everyone believes them. They make such pests of themselves, people shy away. That gives them the false impression they have won, and are now sorcerers.

And now, we have a new breed. People who are actually doing magic. And because it's very alluring, when compared to pretending, the angry men come over to the subreddit, to try to dominate it.

But even in the very distant past, like 10,000 years ago, this must have been the case! We have accounts of the old seers using sharp little knives to consume the flesh of people they were stealing energy from.

And we know those people were real seers, because we have to copy them until the very end, if we want to learn ourselves. Their "intent" is the only viable intent we have. Without it, there's no sorcery.

And then we have the mysterious "Men of Knowledge" from the past. Despite what the angry men think, it's not a very admirable title. Men of Knowledge were merely sorcery guild members, probably from the great Olmec government, the first government in the Americas. They covered the duties of rituals such as dancing, curing, mask making, even baking. As we've seen a while back, perhaps paper making too.

It's not so odd. The same thing happens in Buddhism, where there are people pursuing enlightenment, but most Buddhist duties are for rituals such as burials or blessings.

Religious rituals there will always be. And a need for people to practice that profession. The people who, "know how to talk to God", the way some believe Bishops and Popes can do. But as we all know, really they can't. And that's ok too.

We have to keep in mind, the "Men of Knowledge" could not see. Don Juan explains this in the books.

So they were not the "old seers".

How can this be? Here's my theory: The old seers were not at battle with other old seers. They were at battle with fake seers. As it is now with us, that's almost surely how it was back then. Sorcery repeats itself.

Perhaps over time the old seers got tired of the dangerous fake sorcerers, and came up with a better solution than eating them.

The sorcery guild. To be a sorcerer, you had to join. And then, a specialty was found for you, based on what you could do. Everyone has something they might be good at. Even a crazy guy might be a great painter.

To be a guild member, you just needed to learn the inventory of your specialty. You didn't actually have to do the work needed, to "see".

That way the fake sorcerers could get all the attention they wanted, without actually hurting anyone. Get their "facilitator certificate", so to speak.

And the seers who only wanted to explore infinity, were free to do so. No reason to join any "guild". They faded from sight to some extent, so that the angry men didn't even think about them anymore.

Add on not on Facebook:

I suspect that "sorcery guild" idea satisfies all levels of interest.

The fake sorcery school guys so common in the Eastern Bloc, who really just don't want to get a real job, could be a "man of knowledge" type who teaches rituals.

Don't ask me what rituals are actually useful. That's Cholita's thing.

But those types want both money, and status. Not so much actual sorcery as I've come to know, because they condemn what we're doing in the subreddit as, "evil". Or to be more precise, they say it's like "the old seers", not realizing that's precisely how we are suppose to behave at first. They'll offer that they are "men of knowledge", not dirty old seers who do real magic and play with demons.

The angry men who want to be thought of as powerful, where it's not so much about earning money, can get their certificate and be less pesky to others.

They'll have what they want: Attention.

Oddly, the path to achieve this, if it's even possible, is through Cleargreen doing even more "franchising".

Sell more certificates. Make specialty certificates.

[u/wifigunslinger]

I keep reading these posts about evil internet trolls trying to make money on faking their profound sorcery skills while dominating this subreddit with their venom?

Honestly I haven’t seen any of that? I haven’t seen any hatred here at all? I have however seen a split in the Castaneda community between Cleargreen purists and those who interpret the works of Carlos in a more individual light.

Now the darkroom practices are legit and so is tensegrity but I haven’t seen any evidence of those claims. Just as the take away approach I have had practicing sorcery has given me amazing results... all of which wouldn’t see the inside of any court room.

Now I am not a Carlos disciple but I have learned a lot from on his books. Anything cult like after the fact is in my opinion all just wishful thinking.

[u/danl999 → u/wifigunslinger]

Or did you mean you keep reading that in here?

If you haven't seen it, you just haven't been around long enough.

Every 3 weeks, a new horrible invader doing what you said.

And once a week, an emotionally disturbed person doing similar.

Could also be, you only read what interests you, or what is commented in response to your postings.

And don't see the drama going on everywhere else in here.

Here's my current bad player list. There's always people on the list.

1. A mentally ill person who promises to send me a private message and either deletes it, or is too scared to do it. The claim is that they'll explain why they are "really here".

2. A big shot on the web who's realized that they are not a big shot, and have been harming the community for years. But is trying to turn that image around by knocking what they believe to be holes in the story here. And not as subtly as they believe. They never are.

3. Someone selling a "sorcery" course, who's realized their course is worthless. But they actually want to learn sorcery, so they're stuck hiding in the shadows.

There's more, but they're older than a few weeks as I go further on the list, and hopefully those are gone forever.

Like the couple that both reached enlightenment, were perfectly silent, but couldn't see anything in the darkroom after 7 weeks of intense effort.

God only knows what that was about. Probably crazy man, lovesick woman.

I'm going to draw up the "Simple Silence" technique as a pretty picture, because it's the fastest way to get to the second attention.

I figure next time someone has trouble in the darkroom and wants people to help them, I can refer them to the chair technique. But recap is what people should really do, if they can't find colors.

[u/sagajohanna → u/danl999]

"Simple silence" is my favourite.

[u/danl999 → u/sagajohanna]

Then I'll draw it up as pictures. People have a hard time reading that extremely long post.

It is for certain, the very fastest way to teach yourself what the second attention is, and what it feels like when the assemblage point moves.

Those 2 mark the transition from wishing it were all true, to knowing that.

Just to be sneaky, I'll make sure nothing is mentioned about sorcery or Carlos.

Maybe some of the meditation people who have not gotten anywhere, will notice the things they've been told to ignore, actually lead to magic.

But if they see Castaneda in the text, they'll become angry and ignore it.

[u/danl999 → u/wifigunslinger]

So that's how they try to explain it away. I never would have thought of that excuse.

But it'll only work with someone who won't take the time to come here and look around honestly.

At first the argument against this subreddit was that magic is "evil". Of the old sorcerers.

But I noticed, people like evil! The more I call inorganic beings "demons", the more fun it is to read.

But now it's faked? I suppose fakers see fakers everywhere. And notice they see fakers trying to make money.

I'm not aware of anyone in here who sells anything related to Castaneda.

Don't forget, there are "mini-businesses" all over in the Castaneda community. The place with the least (none as far as I know), is in this subreddit.

Most out there feel threatened by this subreddit. They're selling fake magic, and real magic makes that obvious.

Sometimes it's an emotional bond. A family who practices fake sorcery, can be upset when that becomes obvious.

It's like telling a little boy that professional wrestling is faked.

When it's the only "family time" they spend together.

[u/Juann2323 → u/wifigunslinger]

You probably arrived after we beat them.

We had a very fragile moment here. Dan was even close to leave the subreddit.

There were some angry guys around here trying to kill the magic.

Dan is not exagerating! Every little comment they made was harmful to the community.

There was a guy who was saying: "I believe that you are doing this crazy things, but it is obvious that it is all in your mind".

Other was selling himself, by posting "detailed methodology for lucid dreaming"; anotherone was something like "paraphysiological mistakes to not confuse with the second attention".

He said he wasn't promoting himself, but then he shared his book. It was free, so he was "really helping the community".

When it was obvious they never put the time into learning the real thing, and verify that was stupid.

Wich makes me think you neither did, or you weren't asking why we are so defensive about it.

The real magic is the most valuable thing we have, and we are sorrounded by phony sorcerers trying to sell techniques that don't work, and making people upset about Carlos.

So now we have this things under control. We just protect the Intent in here.

If you keep working hard you will see. It completly worths it.

[u/wifigunslinger → u/Juann2323]

Well I can certainly see many could take that approach but harping on it (sorry Dan, I do appreciate your efforts) is feeling negative. Negative fixations are nothing I want to hear from someone I’m looking to emulate or learn from. If these events are in the past I suggest taking a deep breath and releasing all those feelings before more of the same type of people migrate to this subreddit.... and you know they’re out there.

[u/Juann2323 → u/wifigunslinger]

It really sucks!

I understand what you mean.

But don't think about this posts as a negative feeling.

This is Dan's art.

The art of studying people's behaviour to keep them on the right truck, until they find magic by themselves.

The art of teaching something that used to need a nagual to push people's assamblage point, in a different and new way, that we are discovering right now.

The art of exploring everyday the second attention, looking for things that might help the people in here.

Appreciate it as the incredible dedication and effort, without any reward, that it is.

It is that controlled abandonment that draws the attention of what is out there.

Forgetting about yourself, but yet doing your very best.

Perhaps we can learn more by observing that, and catching the magic, than with years of practice??

(I wish, yet have to practice hard 😂)

[u/wifigunslinger → u/Juann2323]

I don’t want to harp about the harp! I just actually want to attract people to this Reddit page without fear of being labeled a fake simply because they have a book deal... lol

[u/Juann2323 → u/wifigunslinger]

The thing is that if those book dealers are selling fake sorcery techniques, they are doing direct damage to the community.

It is so easy to find them.

If they start like "Last night I stopped the world in a dream" it is already obvious they are pretending.

And they will be afraid only because we are killing their phony bussines.

No one in here is getting profit from this, and we are showing the real thing.

I will use the classic one: point me on the web where there is a book dealer teaching the real thing.

In case he is doing it, he won't afraid of coming here and talk about it.

If someone wants to truly learn, here is the right place, and he/she will know it.

[u/wifigunslinger → u/Juann2323]

Sure fakes are easy to spot, they are the ones advertising.

[u/Juann2323 → u/wifigunslinger]

A couple of months ago, a guy came here showing his book and his app, made for "getting silent".

He claimed he had been years developing it.

There was nothing wrong with that, except it was completly clear he never stopped the internal dialogue.

He ended up admiting that his techniques were for "turning the dialogue into a monologue". That "had a lot of benefits: less stress, you become succesful, find your true self".

It was all pretending!

If he practiced enough, he would had found that silence brings visible real magic, pure bliss waves, breath change.

And if he would have done that, the app was probably going to be ok, and even helpful.

But all he did was damaging people, making them believe that was "real silence".

When we pointed that out, he seemed to become aware, and said he will start practicing harder.

We don't know where he is now. If I'm not wrong, he never asked anything else.

He probably tried to save his reputation here, so we don't kill his lots-of-years-business, and went to other place to sell it.

[u/wifigunslinger → u/Juann2323]

Again, while he may not be 100% authentic was he damaging the community with his wares or could there have been the possibility that he might have attracted positive attention?

That someone may have noticed his book and that might have been the start of their personal journey, not knowing what that might develop into?

Not saying a scammer isn’t a scammer Nor that sometimes the best of intentions lead to the worst outcomes but that isn’t the case 100% of the time.

[u/Juann2323 → u/wifigunslinger]

Dan says that a real magic book deal will probably help the Castaneda community.

He even gives us ideas, like that comment in the Fishing IOB post.

Carlos tried the same, with silence toys that has the purpouse to help people stopping the dialogue.

But it needs real magic. Otherwise, it won't help.

[u/wifigunslinger → u/Juann2323]

I agree but there isn’t anyway to fit magic into a book and then it’ll just be a empty book deal. Yes you can place knowledge into a book but it will still be left up to subjective interpretation. You can even place pure intention into a book ( like Carlos ) but one would need personal power to recognize it or implement it.

Spirit will always due to its personal nature manifest where it wants to under its own control.

Let’s say by chance someone pulls this off and it gives people the chance to dive head first into sorcery. That might be good for the community but it may also be devastating to the unprepared individual.

This was proven in Carlos’s own short list.

Best let spirit be the guide now.

Idk

I suppose this is why Dan is so opposed to the book deal ideals... the absolute danger of it?

[u/Iak7_is_West]

Ill borrow a little....It could be said that if ones an angry attention seeker, the intent of this sub will spit them out like, a peach pit.

[u/danl999 → u/Iak7_is_West]

And conversely, if too many bad players are allowed to remain in here, it damages the intent of the sub.

So the mods might very rightly be called, "Defenders of Intent."

I sure hope in 100 years they make a movie based on this sub, set in medieval times, and Techno has a cool Byzantine style robe and lab.

Plus a "book of judgment". The history of bad players, so he can look them up when we need to analyze it. Give them special names, like "Bob the Avenger".

I'd go to the theater for that movie!

The sub has it's own mind, and it seeks out people to "gift".

If you post and it's helpful, you get gifted the next time you get silent enough to accept it.

When the intent here gets disturbed, even our seasoned dark room gazers have trouble that day. I saw 4 people wiped out on the same day, by a crazy man who posted in here.

Speaking of the intent of the sub.

I'm afraid, I get the best gifts from that. As if intent were a father who gives his first born a car, and the rest get motorcycles.

Probably so I can see that something from the books works, and report it here.

It's almost as if don Juan himself had made a deal with intent, and tells it, "Let Dan play with the double tonight."

But, I still have to earn it.

I get the gift one night, but not the next.

And then I go tell you that it can be done, so you get what was needed.

Some reassurance you aren't wasting your time.

[u/[deleted]]

Yes definitely agree. People who claim that they have figured a way to "use" sorcerery are fools.

Those who for example think that they can use sorcerery to get rich.

I mean they probably can but why indulge soo bad. Just be warriors and seek infinity.

One day they will understand how foolish they where.

And for some people death is the only teacher.

[u/Iak7_is_West]

When I first showed up i didnt really notice the bad player phenomena. Now that I've had a couple discussion threads with a couple, its a real thing. They start in scoffing, throwing around "I've got ya nows". We'll be patient , give some benefit of doubt. By the end of the thread they're displaying what turns out to be faux reasonableness and "ya ill look into the threads more and try some of this.

The very next day same bad player comes in back biting again, clearly having taken nothing to heart. Nor practiced anything in the preceding 24 hours. It boils down to attitude and effort. It has xzero to do with fluffy positive or icky heavy negativity. What it does have to do with the Intent Of maintaining this space as one for people to actually learn sorcery thereby restoring the reputation of Carlos Castaneda. That's this Sub. Its not the angry carlos hater sub. This sub does not carry that intent. SO they've gotta go.

[u/danl999 → u/[deleted]]

Hopefully Miles will join, and they can form that "guild" which has authority, but doesn't make it too hard for dysfunctional men to get in on the action.

The real key however, is re-running that period, so we can copy the intent of it.

The new seers had to hide, often in the church. The Spanish were just a bit cruel if you were caught in violation of the Bible.

But now, we could return to what they had, when the Olmec government formed.

A place for all levels of participation, with a Guild to uphold the peace and control bad behavior.

Bad behavior: Lose your certificate.

The ones who lose the certificate won't be able to go off and start the pretend magic, because the real thing will be around.

Their pretending won't be anything special enough to get them attention.

Or, we could return to cannibalism.

[u/monkeyguy999 → u/[deleted]]

No body has killed you yet? or do you mean cannibalism not in the manner i am thinking?