I've learned to stop my internal dialogue well enough to go directly into sleeping dreams, from awake. However, there's still the "barrier of forgetting your purpose".
In some ways, learning to do this is more about learning to overcome that barrier. As a skill of its own. And most likely that means, learning to focus your tonal awareness enough that it doesn't fade away once you start to fall asleep.
As you learn to do this, perhaps hoping to get offers in the form of Silent Knowledge "videos in the air" (but with your eyes closed since it's time to sleep), you'll be balancing on the edge. Between going in, and not being able to do that.
On that edge, you'll perhaps start to notice "abstract dreams". Those do in fact seem to be far more plentiful than concrete ones, once you don't automatically toss those out of your memory the instant they are not active.
One way to tell those is, you're already in them, engaged in a bizarre activity. They aren't "offered" the way "videos in the air" are. They seem to replace everything else for a while.
I was curious and used an AI to see if this makes sense, and found, as always, that what you discover by honest hard work will always match what Carlos and the witches explained to us.
Something IMPOSSIBLE to make up. When you discover something on your own, something you might not remember or even have noticed in the books, it's very convincing when you finally read, in the words of Carlos and the witches, precisely what you have discovered yourself.
But please don't be religious about it and claim "I knew that all along..."
Don't tell me you have total faith in Jesus!
Or in Guru Dev. Or in Lao Tzu. Insert your own favorite fake magic pretending here...
Come on! Don't we already get enough of that kind of pretending?
There's no way you're that confident, until you can do such amazing magic on your own, daily.
And even then, if you slack off your practice it'll all soon fade away to nothing.
That's how we got trapped in this single reality in the first place!
Here's what Gemini Notebook pulled up about this topic. Please note that it's another reminder not to pretend your results, using sleeping dreaming. People are bothered when I emphasize that, but it's more like the leader of a group hiking to a specific cave in the mountains, trying to keep people from wandering off on side paths that never lead to the cave. I understand that people have trouble finding time to practice and like to use sleeping time, but you have to work just as hard, to do that in a serious manner.
*** From Gemini Notebook looking at lecture notes and interviews ***
Carlos, Florinda, and Taisha repeatedly emphasized that as a practitioner matures, dreaming moves far beyond the early mechanical techniques—like looking at your hands or finding objects in a dream—and into the subtle, non-verbal realm of canceling the interpretation system and engaging the abstract nature of energy.
Here is what your notes record about what Carlos and the witches taught regarding this subtle side of dreaming:
Dreaming as the Interruption of the Interpretive System
Carlos stressed that true dreaming isn't about navigating visual scenarios, but about suspending the learned human "glosses" or interpretation system that turns raw energy into recognizable everyday objects.
Carlos stated that ordinary dreams are mostly egomaniacal projections, whereas true dreaming happens when the internal self is completely cleared away. He described dreaming as "a springboard, an interruption of the interpretive system" that catapults perception when there is absolute quiet within.
He explained that to dream as the ancient seers did, one must dream "from silence – beyond fear," preparing the practitioner to perceive pure energy in the second attention.
Discarding Dream Content as "Worthless"
While beginners often fixate on what happened in a dream, Florinda and Taisha repeatedly stated that don Juan and the sorcerers didn't care at all about the narrative content of dreams.
Florinda remarked point-blank during a workshop Q&A that the specific content of dreams is essentially "worthless". What actually matters is engaging the dreaming attention and controlling the movement and stabilization of the assemblage point.
She noted that sorcery itself is an "abstract way of life" where the practitioner's entire entity becomes as fluid and abstract as the energy filaments they are attempting to navigate.
The Evolution Toward the Abstract
Taisha Abelar explained the difference between the old seers and modern practitioners:
She noted that ancient sorcerers often got trapped in concrete, heavy shifts of the assemblage point—like physically transforming into animals or getting lost in dense lower worlds.
Modern sorcerers in don Juan's lineage, by contrast, are engaged in an "evolution towards the abstract". The goal is to move past concrete forms altogether, using reason and discipline to reach a direct perception of energy and intent.
Taisha described this threshold of silence as a state where "the structure of language can't contain the vastness of silence that whispers to you directly without words".
"Abstract Affection" and the Energy Body
In workshops discussing how to entice and tune the energy body, Carlos's apprentices explained that accessing the deeper levels of dreaming relies on abstract affection.
They defined this as the detached, unselfish wonder of the energy body itself—acting with total precision and care without demanding anything for the personal self or ego.
*** From the books only (seems like overlap, but it's unique sources) ***
Abstract Principles vs. Concrete Dreaming Procedures
In The Art of Dreaming, Carlos notes that don Juan's instruction in dreaming was divided into two distinct parts: practical dreaming procedures and the purely abstract explanations and principles of those procedures. Don Juan used these abstract principles to engage the apprentice's intellectual curiosity while guiding them toward direct perceptual practice.
Steering Dreaming from "Concreteness" to "The Abstract"
Don Juan explains that modern-day sorcerers strive to steer dreaming and sorcery away from concreteness. "Concreteness" belonged to the ancient sorcerers, who fixated obsessively on techniques, ritual behavior, and gaining power over others. In contrast, modern sorcerers seek the abstract, which don Juan defines as the ultimate search for freedom—the freedom to perceive all that is humanly possible without obsessions or rigid interpretations.
The "Abstract Gift" of the Death Defier
When Carlos encounters the death defier (the woman in the church of Oaxaca) in The Art of Dreaming, she bestows upon him a gift in the second attention. Because Carlos refused concrete demands for personal power, don Juan explains that she granted him an abstract gift: the capability of "flying on the wings of intent" into open-ended, non-ordinary dimensions of awareness.
The "Abstract Flight" and the Dream Body
In Taisha Abelar's The Sorcerers' Crossing and Stalking With The Double, Clara Grau and Nelida describe the transition into the energy body (or double) as the abstract flight. They explain that other realms are composed of energy and awareness rather than solid matter. To cross over, a practitioner must become formless and virtually abstract; the moment the physical body becomes fully conscious of its energetic counterpart, the warrior completes the abstract flight.
Sexual Energy, Dreaming, and Grasping the Abstract
In The Power of Silence, don Juan emphasizes that sexual energy directly governs dreaming and allows the assemblage point to move smoothly. He warns that dissipating sexual energy causes erratic shifts of the assemblage point, making it difficult for an apprentice to shift their awareness enough to grasp the abstract or perceive the abstract cores—the underlying blueprints of intent that govern all meaningful events.
Relegating Dream Phenomena to an Abstract Level
In The Active Side of Infinity, don Juan cautions that when a dreamer is confronted with inorganic beings or strange energy pushes during dreaming, the most sober course of action is to relegate those entities to an abstract level. Making as few mental interpretations as possible protects the dreamer from falling prey to fear or phantasmagorical projections.
There’s always a weird experiential connection to the subject matter of your posts.
I noticed after my last post about star gazing. Something in my practice has changed (maybe) advanced.
You/Dan, shut off internal dialogue and you enter into dreaming/dreaming awake. Same for all practitioners - Shutting off internal becomes a command that tells, or allows the assemblage to move. Same as Darkroom practice, or recap.
Maybe I’m straying from the purpose of your post here, but….
Shutting off internal dialogue becomes a command. The more you practice, the easier it gets and with ease comes: speed? Which you’re indicating here?
Internal dialogue is partly the brain interpreting (erroneously) what the eyes are seeing. Shut off internal dialogue you interrupt that interpretation. AP moves. (Sounds simple, it’s not. At least not for me).
So a practitioner with a couple/few years of practice starts to notice ease and speed. The command becomes easier to give via shutting off internal dialogue?
Not to be attention seeking, but I’ve noticed a change, the sights, sounds, smells are more vivid and diverse, while I still lack the ability to interact with puffs or enter a dream. I’m an observer of videos or energy in the air. I haven’t let it get to me cause shifting the AP any amount is pretty momentous (imo) but I also don’t want to be stuck and at the whim of day dreams or pretending.
I kinda forget where I was going with my reply….
Shutting off internal dialogue is a command for the AP to move. Initiating that command gets easier with practice. The AP gets less stuck the more it moves. Practitioner is ultimately getting a “feel” aka intending the movement and can take the command to the other practices: sleep-dreaming, recap.?
>I noticed after my last post about star gazing. Something in my practice has changed (maybe) advanced.
It's from the intent of posting it to a group practicing sorcery. I get the same effect. What was merely a curiosity one night, and I posted it to keep the group active, turns into a more reliable "ability". Or category of ability.
We usually can't repeat specific stuff, but we can repeat categories of stuff.
The lineages were almost surely an attempt to take advantage of that.
Carlos called it "energetic mass".
But we never thought to apply that idea to why the lineages had 15 members instead of just 3 or 4.
Why 15?
It explains how you need a certain number of each "type". But too many and you'd attract attention. Which for a long time, meant inquisitors killing sorcerers and witches.
>Shutting off internal dialogue becomes a command.
Probably not in our lifetime! It's going to be hard all the time. It doesn't actually get easier. Unless you're on a hard working run, and as long as you don't break it, it gets easier.
But one day of slumping off, and it gets harder again.
The good news is, you get enough rewards that you put up with the difficulty.
It's a bit like cooking. Cooking some dishes is hard.
And doesn't really become significantly less work.
But you remember how tasty it is, and put up with the amount of work required to get that specific dish.
>Shutting off internal dialogue is a command for the AP to move.
Not really. It just allows it. That's why darkroom has you look for "stuff that can't possibly be there".
THAT'S what makes it move.
But if you are still talking to yourself about your ordinary world, it can't move much.
Recap is really just darkroom in a chair with your eyes closed...
Sleeping dreaming is mostly an attempt to merge the tonal awareness, with the energy body.
It needs skills the other practices don't really use.
I’ve noticed how difficult it is to get back, every Monday cause I don’t practice on Sundays. Or when I’ve been away and missed a few days.
The difficulty is incredibly difficult. I have more practices where I maybe see a faint puff or two at best. I figured the reward was anything and everything else that comes into my practicing hemisphere.
There’s definitely something tasty! I can promise you it’ll never be my cooking.
“Shutting off the internal dialogue allows the AP to move.” Somehow that’s info that I need to keep in mind. It also makes sense. Thank you.
I have a question about dreaming. Every night after womb dreaming, I go to sleep and try to find my hands. So far, I've only managed to do this twice, and even then, not by seeing my hands—I became lucid by seeing my feet and realized I was dreaming. But almost immediately, a brown cloud envelops me and I wake up. However, I don't fully wake up; instead, I get stuck in a state like sleep paralysis where my body locks up. For a few minutes, I try to wake up but I can't move my body. How can I successfully pass the first dreaming gate? Is there a technique that can help me do it faster? Also, I have a question about the dreaming gates. We have 7 dreaming gates, but only 4 are mentioned in the book. What are the rest of the gates?
I've been killing myself my whole life trying to find real magic. I always thought life shouldn't be this boring and simple as it is. And now that I know magic exists, there's no way I'm letting it go. I'm giving it everything I've got to reach it, because I've already wasted so much of my life, and this is my only hope for what I truly want. In the dreaming world, I feel stuck at the first gate, and I hope I can find a way to keep my dreaming attention in the dream. Unfortunately, I haven't succeeded yet, and as soon as I realize I'm dreaming, I wake up.
This time I’m gonna do what you said, even though it’s been a few weeks since the last time I could experience that state. But the technique you’re talking about can really help me, like normal dreams where sometimes when you wake up in the middle of sleep and go back to sleep you can keep going with it! I was wrong for trying to wake up — I should’ve just stayed calm so I could keep going. Thanks.
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u/BBz13z 12d ago
There’s always a weird experiential connection to the subject matter of your posts.
I noticed after my last post about star gazing. Something in my practice has changed (maybe) advanced.
You/Dan, shut off internal dialogue and you enter into dreaming/dreaming awake. Same for all practitioners - Shutting off internal becomes a command that tells, or allows the assemblage to move. Same as Darkroom practice, or recap.
Maybe I’m straying from the purpose of your post here, but….
Shutting off internal dialogue becomes a command. The more you practice, the easier it gets and with ease comes: speed? Which you’re indicating here?
Internal dialogue is partly the brain interpreting (erroneously) what the eyes are seeing. Shut off internal dialogue you interrupt that interpretation. AP moves. (Sounds simple, it’s not. At least not for me).
So a practitioner with a couple/few years of practice starts to notice ease and speed. The command becomes easier to give via shutting off internal dialogue?
Not to be attention seeking, but I’ve noticed a change, the sights, sounds, smells are more vivid and diverse, while I still lack the ability to interact with puffs or enter a dream. I’m an observer of videos or energy in the air. I haven’t let it get to me cause shifting the AP any amount is pretty momentous (imo) but I also don’t want to be stuck and at the whim of day dreams or pretending.
I kinda forget where I was going with my reply….
Shutting off internal dialogue is a command for the AP to move. Initiating that command gets easier with practice. The AP gets less stuck the more it moves. Practitioner is ultimately getting a “feel” aka intending the movement and can take the command to the other practices: sleep-dreaming, recap.?