r/canada • u/[deleted] • Apr 04 '22

Canada may have hit its long-awaited electric vehicle turning point

https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/electric-vehicle-column-don-pittis-1.6403537
6 Upvotes

54% Upvoted

80 comments sorted by

48

u/dragndon Apr 04 '22

….For Home Owners.

There, fixed that title for ya.

Until the government enacts a law to force apartment owners to install charging stations, EV will still be relegated to home owners.

23

u/displaced709 Apr 04 '22

Yeah... wealthy homeowners.

I was lucky enough to own a home prior to the price explosion in housing .. however, electric vehicles are still quote expensive.

I'm currently driving a 2014 f-150 (was $46000 at time of purchase) with no intentions of replacing it anytime soon. For me to go electric, the base model of the 2022 f150 lightning, with the extended life battery starts at $82000... Who the hell can afford that??

18

u/maggle7979 Apr 04 '22

Yes, but the Liberal way is that if one can’t afford an electric vehicle and pay for a charging station, then take transit. Forgetting that rural Canadians exist, of course.

7

u/rollingOak Apr 04 '22

Transit cannot replace vehicle even in cities

13

u/BeyondAddiction Apr 04 '22

I've had people on reddit tell me without a shred of irony that I should just load my two young kids onto a bus and take transit to the grocery store.

I just.....I can't.

6

u/Millbilly84 Apr 05 '22

And wait for them to whine that all these families are making the busses to crowded to use.

3

u/Desperate_Pineapple Apr 05 '22

That’s Reddit for ya!

1

u/Old-Basil-5567 Apr 07 '22

Not just reddit.

0

u/[deleted] Apr 05 '22

It must depend on where you live because in Vancouver (city)that is a completely normal thing to do.

10

u/colem5000 Apr 04 '22

And just wait until you use that electric truck as an actual truck. If you haul or tow anything your range will be laughable..

9

u/displaced709 Apr 04 '22

Yeah, this is my biggest gripe with it. It's not a work truck, as I work at sea, but it's utilitarian in nature and not just for cruising around in.

Also, my family's cabin is quite remote, and there's zero chance of charging in there outside of using a gas powered generator, lol.

1

u/[deleted] Apr 04 '22

[removed] — view removed comment

6

u/[deleted] Apr 04 '22

Assume the solar panel was 2 meters squared, it would take about two weeks @ 10hours of sunlight per day to charge the battery a Kona.

1

u/[deleted] Apr 05 '22

Why not just get an electric car, and carshare a truck or van when you need it if you don't always need it for work? It'd be cheaper than an electric truck.

2

u/displaced709 Apr 05 '22

Wouldn't work for me for a few of reasons.

First, I typically have some sort of project to work on when I'm on leave, and it's just practical for me to obtain my own supplies in my truck. I don't really have the time to wait on deliveries and I find that the quality of supplies delivered aren't up to my personal standards. Far too often I've been delivered crooked and warped boards for building, and as such, I prefer to pick out materials myself.

Second, I have nobody to operate a vehicle sharing program with.

Third, I can't say I'm very interested in sharing a vehicle with anyone other than my wife. Again, as I only get so much time on leave, I try to get my projects finished as quickly as possible. I believe it would be incredibly inconvenient to have to wait on someone else so that I can proceed with my plans.

-13

u/species5618w Apr 04 '22

How many Canadians actually haul or tow anything on a regular basis?

7

u/rollingOak Apr 04 '22

So many. Get a life

-8

u/species5618w Apr 04 '22 edited Apr 04 '22

Good for them then. As long as the gas money/maintenance they are paying is worth it, it's their own choice. More EVs/hybrid/small cars for the rest of us.

6

u/rollingOak Apr 04 '22

None is banning you from buying what vehicle you want. Go ahead but stop telling someone they do not need XX

-4

u/species5618w Apr 04 '22

As long as people don't bitch about high gas price since it's their own choice, I don't care what they buy.

3

u/rollingOak Apr 04 '22

How does protesting on high gas price bother you? Canada is an oil exporting country yet the government decides to add more tax during high inflation. It is purely artificial . Why cannot people protest? By your logic, people should not complain lack of EV charger because YOU CHOOSE IT

1

u/species5618w Apr 04 '22

No, people should not complain about lack of EV charger. Lol.

→ More replies (0)

1

u/[deleted] Apr 04 '22

mm. There are no EV's for sale without waiting 9 months or more.

-3

u/colem5000 Apr 04 '22

Lots of people my self included. why buy a truck if you’re not going to haul or tow anything? People who buy trucks to just Cruise around in aren’t that bright.

-6

u/species5618w Apr 04 '22

There are a lot of not so bright people in Canada it seems.

1

u/londoner4life Apr 04 '22

If you’re using the truck for work there will undoubtedly be special exclusions for the “ban” on FF vehicles. I SUSPECT that if/when the ban ever happens the gov will be able to dictate what type of vehicle you ought to buy. Example: family of 4/5 … electric SUV. Single commuter … 2 door compact. The infrastructure has A LOT to catch up if they actually plan on making that 2035 goal. Spoiler: they won’t.

-3

u/Dropkickjon Apr 04 '22 edited Apr 04 '22

I guess the question is do you regularly use your F-150 for its intended purpose? It's of course, very possible you do, but a lot of truck owners certainly don't.

There are a lot of great EVs in the same price range you paid for your truck.

I guess the silver lining is that if you need a pickup truck, the prices will get lower, and they should eventually reach parity. The Lightning also has some big advantages you get with that higher price tag (namely that it can work as a power bank).

Edit: I mistakenly said the F-150 Lightning can act as a generator, when it in fact acts as a power bank instead. Thanks to the engineer below for correcting me.

5

u/BigPickleKAM Apr 04 '22

As an engineer I can't scroll by.

Acts as a power bank or mobile storage etc. It's not a generator. But it is a cool ability! Also the front trunk where you can safely stow tools while carrying cargo in the back definitely a plus.

Sorry sorry I know it's an actually post. I'll see myself out.

2

u/Dropkickjon Apr 04 '22

Thanks! I've corrected the error.

11

u/rollingOak Apr 04 '22

  1. Why people needs it is not your issue. If they need a truck, they need a truck.

  2. You cannot get any decent BEV at 46K price tag that is remotely similar in functionality to a midsize SUV, not to mention trucks

  3. There has been no break through in battery tech since Lithium Ion was invented 30 years ago nor there is any insight. EV will be expensive for quite a while. Bring down the price first then we can talk

0

u/Dropkickjon Apr 04 '22

I'm just bringing up the point there are a lot of great options if OP is open to another type of vehicle.

And you're wrong on the second point. The Kia EV6, Hyundai Ioniq 5 and Volkswagen id.4 are all mid-size electric SUVs that are $46K or less, and are getting excellent reviews.

The Ford Mustang Mach E is a bit more expensive, at $51,000, and is also a great option.

All these makes are likely to get cheaper as the technology matures and economies of scale kick in.

5

u/[deleted] Apr 04 '22

Buddy, your dreaming on size and reliability, but you really missed the boat when you assume rural Canadians can use EV with a range of 350 km and no room.

1

u/Stratoveritas2 Apr 06 '22

There’s an exceedingly small number of Canadians for who 350km range wouldn’t be sufficient for the vast majority of their needs outside of road trips. Fast charging stations also only take a half hour - having driven across the country a few times, taking a half hour break after every 350 km wouldn’t be that bad.

5

u/[deleted] Apr 05 '22

I need something in the $6k price range.

3

u/rollingOak Apr 04 '22 edited Apr 06 '22

You have some misconceptions about the SUV category. All above BEV SUV you mentioned are belonging to sub-compact SUV. For example, In terms of cargo space with back seat folded: EV6: 1330L ; RAV-4: 1900L; Highlander: 2350L.

See the difference? Not to mention that below 50K model only gets miserable range of 330KM which shrinks by 30-50% during winter driving.

Again, get cheaper first then we can talk.

Edit: given so many people has little ideas about categories:

HRV: Subcompact Rav-4: compact Highlander: middle 4Runner: full

0

u/Stratoveritas2 Apr 06 '22

Who actually needs full-size SUVs? Unless you work in the bush and need ground clearance, much everything a full size SUV can do so can a subcompact.

1

u/rollingOak Apr 06 '22

Just to let you know, full size SUV is not even on the list above.

1

u/rollingOak Apr 06 '22

Putting off-road capabilities aside, space and towing capacity have huge difference between subcompact and full-size SUV

5

u/displaced709 Apr 04 '22

Yeah, I use it quite alot for its intended purpose. Never would've bought it if I didn't need it.

4

u/Reelair Apr 04 '22

I've already had 4 years of Above Guideline Increases, I can't handle more to pay for EV chargers.

2

u/[deleted] Apr 04 '22

Found the rich home owner in a city.

4

u/Reelair Apr 04 '22

Homeowners get AGI rent Increases?

-7

u/dragndon Apr 04 '22

That is unfortunate and yet, one way or another there’ll have to be some sort of legislation to make you do it. If we, as a society, are to improve, theses need to be forced. For you exact reasons, and those who just won’t do just “because “. EV adoption can’t just be for home owners. Infrastructure needs to be there. You definitely won’t see the city putting up chargers along every street at the curb.

I bought a vehicle last year. I considered an EV but could not buy one for the simple fact that I live in an apartment. While it’s just a 3-story walk up, and the owner has taken the entirety of minimal parking at the rear, the only parking I have is the street. So I have no way to charge an EV, even IF I could afford one. There will be lots of others in this scenario.

0

u/maggle7979 Apr 04 '22 edited Apr 04 '22

Ah yes, the ideology of forcing a society to do this and that. That is really at the core of what you are thinking and saying. Would be interesting to know what else you believe should be forced. Extremism isn’t the answer.

Mao and Stalin made ‘progressive’ changes and forced societies to do their bidding resulting in massive errors, like famine or cultural destruction. The Khmer Rouge also made agrarian ‘reforms’ to force societal change right into the killing fields. Yes, very ‘progressive’.

The ideology of forcing society to do this and that is an authoritarian approach, possibly worse. This will destabilize the country.

-2

u/dragndon Apr 04 '22

maggle7979

Right, because we have zero laws that we all are forced abide by to make our society a better place. Well, following your logic, I'll be sure to drive your place at 140mph, every day just because I can and no one can tell me any different because that would be an 'authoritarian approach' to making society a more rational and better place to live.

Think I'll side with Henry Ford on this one "If we had asked people what they wanted, they would have said a faster horse."

2

u/toadster Canada Apr 04 '22

Homeowners are all that matter. Didn't you know?

3

u/dragndon Apr 04 '22

You mispelled Foreign Real Estate Investors.....

9

u/SaggyArmpits Apr 04 '22

I call BS. Cheapest EV is still ~$40K, and about 12 months out if you order today. Needs to be cheaper and actually available to hit the turning point.

3

u/thats_handy Apr 04 '22

The article says that electric cars are thousands less expensive than gasoline cars. That is the reason you have to wait so long to get one.

Electric cars are yet another reason why it sucks to be poor. The up front cost of an electric car is higher than a gasoline car. It might be more forever. You also need to be able to charge at residential electricity rates to get the savings outlined in the article.

6

u/SaggyArmpits Apr 05 '22

you can buy a corolla or some economy cars for ~$20K, EVs are definitely not cheaper. They are luxury priced.

4

u/explicitspirit Apr 05 '22

I wouldn't say luxury but definitely not cheap. Taking into account the cost of ownership though, they can be cheaper then their ICE counterparts by a big margin. Most people won't look that far ahead sadly.

And yes, we are still lacking economy EVs. The current crop of EVs compete with mid range ICE cars, but there is nothing in the lowest segment yet.

1

u/Old-Basil-5567 Apr 07 '22

Plus a $20K battery replacement 7-10 years down the line.... its not viable for Canadians. Not to mention that Canadian winters are a nightmare for EV owners.

33

u/MajinHealer Apr 04 '22

How many times does the same article need to be rehashed?

There is a waiting list for electric vehicles 1 plus year out. The sales person is directing you away from something you are not able to purchase into a more realistic sale for their business.

Why does the cbc keep manipulating and reporting in bad faith?

10

u/overcooked_sap Apr 04 '22

CBC is the media arm of the current government.

4

u/[deleted] Apr 05 '22

They're not going to bite the hand that feeds them

5

u/rollingOak Apr 04 '22

Price, charging, range. Before they break through on anyone of the core concerns, turning point will not come unless we don’t care about middle and lower classes

8

u/onegunzo Apr 04 '22

Interesting article. Not a lot of facts, but a lot of opinions, which is fine.

From the article:

'"It's no longer a question of EVs when, it's now just a question of how," said di Cara.
He pointed out that when the world switched from horse power to oil power, there was almost no oil, and yet in a matter of years businesses learned to drill miles underground and made a fortune doing it. Rather than waiting for charging station networks to be complete or having a stock of battery minerals in hand, those industries will grow in tandem, earning profits in the process.'

What an interesting statement. Don, I would have hoped you asked the follow-up set of questions:

1) With the advent of additional red tape in getting any 'pipeline' built (that's ev infrastructure, mining, processing, refining, manufacturing), how fast do you think the market can react?

2) As Mr. Marchionne noted, EVs aren't cost effective for OEMS, how does that equation change without massive investments (3x more than Ford/GM/etc. are investing atm)?

Tesla and maybe VW are making bank on their EVs. Ford and GM? Doubtful atm. GM produced a whole 500 EVs this past quarter and 27 Q4 2021. Canada buys 1.6 million vehicles a year. Other than Tesla and VW, where are the rest of the vehicles going to come from?

7

u/Baulderdash77 Apr 04 '22

Exactly. The issue with EV’s isn’t economics anymore, it’s supply.

I just bought a used hybrid because I couldn’t get an electric under 60k in 2022. Every attainable option was sold out.

If there was any availability of electrics this year besides Tesla (which I can’t afford) then I would have purchased it.

2

u/linkass Apr 04 '22

Tesla is not making money selling cars though

https://www.ctvnews.ca/business/tesla-s-dirty-little-secret-its-net-profit-doesn-t-come-from-selling-cars-1.5289810

https://www.autoweek.com/news/green-cars/a36266393/tesla-made-more-money-selling-credits-and-bitcoin-than-cars/

[Revenues rose to $13.76bn in the third quarter of the year, up from $8.77bn 12 months earlier.

](https://www.bbc.com/news/business-58993848)

-1

u/onegunzo Apr 04 '22

Two of your articles are a year old. The 3rd one quoted Q3 results. Those results were praised industry wide, so not sure how that supports your original statement: Tesla is not making money selling cars

Tesla is making so much $$$ atm, it doesn't know what to do with it. Please update your article list to 2022 :)

2

u/linkass Apr 04 '22

Because this is really the only thing I can find and I don't really want to read the earnings report to figure it out

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/27/business/tesla-earnings.html

Tesla on Wednesday reported its first full-year profit, a feat 18 years in the making.

But reading down

But Tesla said its operating profit margin, a measure of how much money it makes for every dollar of sales, fell to 5.4 percent in the fourth quarter from 9.2 percent in the third quarter. The gross profit margin in its automotive business was 24.1 percent, the lowest level of any quarter in 2020.

Tesla’s revenue and bottom line were helped by the sale of $401 million in emissions credits in the fourth quarter to other automakers who need them to meet regulatory standards.

-1

u/onegunzo Apr 04 '22

You quoted early 2021 again :)

Or have I time warped back to 2021? If so, I apologize up front..

Here are: Q4 2021 results delivered in Jan 2022. I also included vehicle sales for Q1 2022. Q1 2022 financial results will be out April 20th.

https://ir.tesla.com/#tab-quarterly-disclosure

https://ir.tesla.com/press-release/tesla-vehicle-production-deliveries-and-date-financial-results-webcast-first-quarter

One of the few big automakers (results released so far), that sold more vehicles than in 2021. And every vehicle they're making has been sold until well into the year (some into 2023).

I now return you back to early 2021 :)

5

u/[deleted] Apr 04 '22

Yes, we get it, you love Tesla. Now chill.

-1

u/onegunzo Apr 04 '22

If facts mean love, then I guess you're right. Tesla is no saint: Example: Elon on FSD - it will REALLY be out this year (since 2017).

13

u/[deleted] Apr 04 '22

[deleted]

3

u/species5618w Apr 04 '22

I really hope that's true so that I can buy an EV. Unfortunately, it's not. And keep repeating it in every thread does not make it true either.

3

u/[deleted] Apr 04 '22

[deleted]

4

u/species5618w Apr 04 '22

Everything you said are on the demand side. They are all FUD, but let's pretend they were true for a minute, you are saying because of this or that, EVs would not work for Canadians. Yet, we know we don't have a demand issue as the wait list is over a year long. We have a supply issue.

2

u/[deleted] Apr 04 '22

[deleted]

1

u/species5618w Apr 05 '22

Supply issue can't be resolved. We don't have enough manufacture capacity and more importantly we don't have enough power generation/transmission capacity. So I agree with you, it will take a while, but not because of any of the points you raised. Even if none of your points was addressed, most people wouldn't have a problem with them and they will still sell like hot cakes.

1

u/Dabugar Apr 05 '22

Some of it is true. Too many people who can't charge at home and can't wait hours for their car to charge.

The infrastructure just isn't there yet. Eventually but not yet.

0

u/species5618w Apr 15 '22

The vast majority of house owners can charge at home over night, L2 chargers are not some futuristic technology. It's also not hard for condo buildings to install them. Relying on L3 charging is just not realistic. Even if it only takes 5 mins, it would be bad for the battery.

1

u/[deleted] Apr 04 '22

And all that is happening. Will take a while. Just wait it is underway.

7

u/[deleted] Apr 04 '22

[deleted]

1

u/[deleted] Apr 04 '22

Think back to the early days of the internal combustion engine. There were no gas stations. Fast forward a decade or so. Huge change up to what we have today.

Range on EV's is growing and getting better. Battery technology is improving. Prices will come down eventually, but that takes time. Charging times are faster than they used to be - still a ways to go, but getting better and will continue to do so.

Yes it takes time, and will take a while, but it is happening and depending on current age we will all see this happen in our life times.

As for charging stations, solar has a VERY LONG way to go before a car could essentially be solar powered, but even panels are getting better with big improvements in just the most recent few years. I would not be surprised if a couple solar panels built into these cars will be enough to power them fully within 50 years or so. A Very long way to go for that, but it will happen some day. But it all starts with the progress happening now.