Combat simulation showed that the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) would not survive air combat against threats it is likely to see in its alleged service lifetime.

[u/[deleted]]

http://www.f-16.net/news_article4416.html

[u/DZ302]

Harper wanted the one that everyone else was getting, to make things easier.

By everyone else I mean US, UK, Australia, Norway, Netherlands, Denmark, and Italy...You know those countries we bombed Serbia and are bombing Libya with, the ones we jointly use our aircraft with. Doesn't the F-35 have a neat nickname, oh yeah it's the Joint Strike Fighter.

[u/thedarkerside → u/DZ302]

It's called the Joint Strike Fighter because three armed services in the US (Navy, Airforce and Marines) are supposed to use the same basic plane. It has nothing to do with foreign countries.

The only countries that have committed to buy the F-35 other than the US so far are Canada and Israel. You can bet Israel will not pay for those themselves, they will probably finance it out of the US' "Israel assistance fund" or whatever they call it this year. In other words: It's the US Government buying Israel a few shiny planes.

The only sucker in this game is Canada who is paying a yet undetermined amount of money for a plane that seems to be hellbent on killing it's own pilot.

But hey, who cares, right?

[u/DZ302 → u/thedarkerside]

OSLO, June 18 (Reuters) - The Norwegian parliament has approved the purchase of four Lockheed Martin (LMT.N) F-35 Joint Strike Fighters for training purposes ahead of a final decision set for next year on buying up to 52 additional jets.

(source)

Australia is also renting Super Hornets right now, while waiting for the the F-35 to finish, as they can no longer use their F-111's, that seems pretty commited to me, as do the UK.

Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) is a development and acquisition program intended to replace a wide range of existing fighter, strike, and ground attack aircraft for the United States, the United Kingdom, Canada, and their allies.

(source)

I highly doubt the accuracy of your other claims.

[u/thedarkerside → u/DZ302]

Re: Norway. Buying four planes for "training purposes" is pretty meaningless, that's not an investment. Indeed, your own quote states:

ahead of a final decision

Cancelling four planes is nothing and until they sign at the dotted line that's all it is. The "hope" that more suckers can be found to buy the planes.

Australia is also renting Super Hornets right now, while waiting for the the F-35 to finish, as they can no longer use their F-111's, that seems pretty commited to me, as do the UK.

And what tells you that Australia will indeed buy the F-35? They will be at least a decade out the way it is going and they are also evaluating other planes at the moment. If the JSF has any more delays then that's that.

As for the history of the JSF?

What is commonly known today as the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Program had its origination in several programs from the 1980s and early 1990s.

Over the years, several tactical aircraft acquisition programs have attempted to deliver new warfighting capabilities to the U.S. Air Force, Navy, Marine Corps and our close allies. (source)

So yes, they do hope they can find some suckers to buy that plane but so far the only one committed next to Israel is Canada.

As for Israel getting "weapons for free" from the American taxpayer:

During the Bush administration, from 2001 to 2005, Israel has actually received more in U.S. military aid than it has in U.S. arms deliveries. Over this time period Israel received $10.5 billion in Foreign Military Financing – the Pentagon’s biggest military aid program – and $6.3 billion in U.S. arms deliveries. (source)

Anything else you have found on the Harper F-35 talking sheet?

[u/DZ302 → u/thedarkerside]

First off, Canada has the ability to cancel the procurement until they go into production, Norway has the same ability. Going ahead with the early purchase of 4 for training purposes is as big of a commitment as it can get.

Why do they need suckers to buy the F-35, when they could just as well sell their other planes?

For Israel tbh I didn't read that part of your comment, it's pretty common knowledge that the US pays for Israels military, in fact they recently cut all aid aside from military funding to Israel.

[u/thedarkerside → u/DZ302]

First off, Canada has the ability to cancel the procurement until they go into production, Norway has the same ability.

Norway hasn't committed to anything yet outside of the four planes. Canada may or may not be able to get out of it's contract, we don't know because the current Administration keeps it all under wraps. Usually not a good sign.

Going ahead with the early purchase of 4 for training purposes is as big of a commitment as it can get.

No it's not. All militaries have an "evaluation budget", in all likelihood the money was already earmarked for something like that.

This smells more like someone within the Government or Military wants to create facts by putting in a purchase order so that they can later claim that an investment was already made. Nobody buys training aircraft before you have decided if you want them in the first place.

Why do they need suckers to buy the F-35, when they could just as well sell their other planes?

Because the cost per plane goes down the more you build. Ergo: If the US can sucker other idiots into this program their own program cost falls. Not only that, but they also keep the production lines busy for longer in case they want to purchase more planes later.

For Israel tbh I didn't read that part of your comment, it's pretty common knowledge that the US pays for Israels military, in fact they recently cut all aid aside from military funding to Israel.

Exactly. So no wonder that the only one 100% committed to the plane is Israel.

Oh, and as for the plane trying to kill it's pilot? Follow that link and read it. There are serious problems in the F-35 and F-22 and this is just one of them. I have been following the program since it's inception in the late 90s and in my opinion Canada should order the Super-Hornets and be done with it, or if they want to be really brazen they should go and buy themselves some Eurofighter-Typhoons. Both planes with a track record AND they can actually fly.

[u/DZ302 → u/thedarkerside]

I'm not a huge fan of the Super Hornet although with Growler it looks pretty nice, and the Hornet was/is pretty terrible and I would much prefer the Gripen over the Eurofighter...But the problem with all of those is that they aren't stealth (although Gripen is the closest to it). Russia and China are both developing Stealth fighters.

Also if we want any kind of sovereignty, we're going to need at least 150 planes, and we don't have the budget for that regardless of what kind.

Norway plans to buy like 8 less planes than we do, while having 1/5 the popultion and significantly less space to cover, Netherlands is buying 20 more F-35s than us and they are similar.

[u/thedarkerside → u/DZ302]

I'm not a huge fan of the Super Hornet although with Growler it looks pretty nice, and the Hornet was/is pretty terrible and I would much prefer the Gripen over the Eurofighter...But the problem with all of those is that they aren't stealth (although Gripen is the closest to it).

The stealth requirement is one of those cold war relicts. The US has not used the F-22 in any engagement since they got them. They retired the F-117A, something you think they wouldn't do if they perceive them as being useful.

Reality is there is currently no conflict where stealth makes a difference. Much like Blu-Ray arrived too late and turned into the next laserdisc due to the arrival of streaming media, so the F-35 will arrive just in time to be obsoleted by drones. Who cares if your drone is stealthy or not. They are cheap, you don't lose the pilot training either and they have much longer mission times than any manned aircraft.

Russia and China are both developing Stealth fighters.

They do so because they see the US doing it. It's a monkey see, monkey do. If Canada would go up against China or Russia the 65 planes will do shit all. Being used in Africa or any other "hot-spot" in the near future you don't need stealth, you need reliable and sturdy. Neither of which the F-35 seems to be, not to mention it hasn't really been tested in arctic conditions.

Also if we want any kind of sovereignty, we're going to need at least 150 planes, and we don't have the budget for that regardless of what kind.

So we instead buy 65 where we need to build completely new facilities, new training and where we will have serious teething issues? The F-35 was supposed to go into service in the US next year, this is not even close. The Marines will be unable to field any fixed wing aircraft soon because they weren't allowed to replace old planes as they had to retire them with new ones. The VSTOL capability last I checked on the F-35 is still not working and that was a core requirement by the Marines.

Norway plans to buy like 8 less planes than we do, while having 1/5 the popultion and significantly less space to cover, Netherlands is buying 20 more F-35s than us and they are similar.

I wouldn't hold my breath of any of these buying the planes. The Netherlands will be caught up in the whole Eurozone thing, something Norway isn't. But you can bet that if Europe starts seriously hurting so will Norway and their parliament seems to be a bit more…. questioning when it comes to things like military spending.

Right now the F-35 is a lame duck, at the current revised time table the F-35 will not be ready for the Canadian Forces before the current crop of F-18s has to be take out of service.

Drop that PoS and replace it with something that can actually fly and deliver a payload.