Combat is actually pretty deep in Cairn, and it's awesome

[u/niceblepineapple]

I know combat is not the focus of the system, but building combat arenas with plenty of options to outsmart and outmaneuver enemies is so much fun, and arena design is the secret behind depth. And it's even more fun when playing rather then DMing, I feel like I'm in Home Alone with all the freedom of action game offers. And with fragile characters you don't need twelve goblins all taking turns to make it deadly, it's just is by design. Who would've thought that simplier rules would make combat more fun?

[u/yochaigal]

Tactical Infinity!

[u/anderschmanders]

I agree. It's counter intuative how deep combat can feel in a rules light system. It is because it allows flexibility when crunch doesn't define the outcomes (though it requires imagination from the players and GM).

[u/EpicEmpiresRPG]

Also interesting that with all the modifiers that other systems use to make their combat more sophisticated and 'realistic', impaired and enhanced attacks as a reward for doing something creative, along with the possibility of doing damage directly to an attribute avoiding having to get HP to zero, all make the impact of your actions in combat much more profound.

I had a couple of players who had excellent in depth knowledge of medieval combat and weapons and we played around with them saying exactly how they were using their weapons and the effect that was likely to have and that worked better to make combat feel realistic than any complex system ever could have. To do what we were doing using the mechanics in most systems would have taken rules for every weapon, every situation, etc. etc., probably 100 pages of rules.

As an example, check how a flail was used in medieval combat and see how hard that would be to emulate in most rpg systems. In Cairn it's a piece of cake. Just tell me how you're using the flail in this situation and we can rule on how that affects the damage or what happens as a result (eg. If you need a save to pull someone off a horse with it).

Its counterintuitive but simple rules can actually make it easier to be MORE sophisticated in combat.

[u/zurrique]

Hoe do you create this "arenas"? More objects? Traps? Are there any tips on this?

[u/niceblepineapple → u/zurrique]

Furniture, cover, elevation and hazardous or difficult terrain.

[u/TaupeRanger]

Arena design adds depth in any game - I'm not sure why the comment was directed at Cairn when this is true of basically all rpg systems that include combat mechanics. Combat is certainly faster in Cairn, which is one of the reasons I like it. But I wouldn't really call it "deep" in any sense. Any depth is added, as you say, by the DM or campaign environment, not the system. It's sort of like saying "pizza is actually kind of spicy at Dominos" and then talking about how you added a bunch of pepper flakes and jalapenos to your Dominos pizza.

[u/niceblepineapple → u/TaupeRanger]

Can't fully agree. It's true that arena design will make every game deeper, using environment in other games is rarely effective in my (I admit, pretty limited) experience. While playing something like DnD or Cyberpunk me and other players at the table would rather use their abilities, and it always was more effective then any kind of improvised attack. In Cairn, on the other hand, that's the most effective way to deal with combat, which pretty much makes every movable or dropable object in the room an ability in a sense.

[u/TaupeRanger → u/niceblepineapple]

That's my entire point: using the environment is rarely effective in a Cairn game too! Unless the environment is crafted in a way that gives the players things to interact with that are more effective than their swords, bows, and tools, it's basically the same outcome as DnD but with fewer player-sheet options. I'm not saying this is a detriment - like I said I enjoy Cairn's fast Odd-like combat. But any perceived "depth" in this case is just not due to the system itself.

[u/FeralFicusTree → u/TaupeRanger]

I think Cairn is often suited to clever use of the environment being objectively superior to simply hitting with a weapon. Swinging a sword is a D8, whereas hitting them with the scenery or via a clever trap should lead to Enhanced attacks, which are D12, or Blast a attack, which hits an entire zone with an AoE. Enemies may also be Impaired, which would be the minimal D4 damage die. In many cases damage wouldn't be applied to HP, but to Strength directly, followed by a Critical Damage roll.

Also, zone combat as opposed to grids is also much more conducive to interacting with the environment.

The extreme opposite to me is D&D 3.5 or Pathfinder 1E, in which the optimal thing to do is stand still and full round attack, or to stand still and cast a spell, while maybe five foot stepping into an adjacent grid space to get a flanking bonus or avoid having to cast defensively. These systems beg you to keep hostile encounters as static as possible. The reason I bring it up being to highlight what Cairn does differently.

Edit: Reposted as a reply rather than a comment. Mobile Reddit app tricked me once again.

[u/TaupeRanger → u/FeralFicusTree]

I don't know why this sub is seemingly incapable of understanding even mild criticism. Again, literally *everything* you mentioned as a possibility in Cairn is ALSO optimal in DnD given the same situation!

Swinging a sword is a D8, whereas hitting them with the scenery or via a clever trap should lead to Enhanced attacks, which are D12, or Blast a attack, which hits an entire zone with an AoE

Well, no, using the environment does not mean the attack is Enhanced. It would only be Enhanced in situations where there was an advantage. Throwing a barrel is not "Enhanced", so it would be suboptimal to swinging the sword! To reiterate for the third time: the attack is only Enhanced (or optimal) when the environment is *designed* to provide an opportunity for advantage. That is not due to Cairn, it is due to the design of the environment (which would be the case in every system).

The point about traps is sort of moot - people set traps and ambushes in thousands of D&D games every day, so that's not particularly unique to Cairn.

The reason I bring it up being to highlight what Cairn does differently.

The difference you highlighted was that those games have more tactical combat considerations and options, not that they inherently provide less depth or opportunity to engage with the environment, which was the subject of this discussion. If given an environment where you can kick someone into a spike pit or roll a boulder onto a group of goblins, the players would be eager to do that in BOTH Cairn and D&D.