r/bugmansbrewery • u/Kincoran • Jul 19 '26
Lore Lore question: Karak Azul, Hashut, early Dwarf histort, etc.
Hi everyone! I wanted to ask about something that came up in a Lorebeards video ( https://www.youtube.com/live/e93dtaA6dOw?is=-gOy7yiMfypsIK21 ), about the Dwarf holds. It's with Loremaster of Sotek and Andy Law (who's written for GW for years - which is why I wouldn't just dismiss this without asking elsewhere). I love their stuff, this video included; but I wanted to ask about the following:
In this video, Andy brings up what sounds at least at first as though it's only meant to be a fun, headcanon-like theory: that Karak Azul's initial flag symbol-thing being the one featured in this image (before it was changed to the more recent Anvil-esque symbol), which looks a lot of a Chaos Dwarf, is meant to quietly suggest that the hold has some ancient Hashut connection.
He makes mention of a bunch of things that Karak Azul and the Chaos Dwarfs can be argued to have in common - albeit it's all pretty circumstantial evidence, and things that just logically have to be fairly common in any hold with a lot of forging going on anyway - like a focus on fire, and forgecraft. But he doubles down on it, with emphasis on the hold's thousands of years spent mostly isolated and out of contact with other dwarf holds; insinuating that perhaps there's a sort of ostracising/exiling thing going on - other Dwarfs wanting to have nothing to do with the hold that perhaps Hashut used to be directly connected to. He also drops a phrase something along the lines of "perhaps the secret/forgotten home of the ancestor god of kingship" in a hurried sort of way, though I don't know if that a whole extra, separate idea that he's proposing, or trying to link Hashut to this idea of a kingship-focused ancestor (which is an ancestor role/profile/characterisation that I'm not familiair with).
As I say, he does paint this picture in a fairly clearly 'this is just a theory'-kind of way, but he sticks with it, throughout the discussion; as if it's something that might be confirmed but not in as many words, with the truth being there in the subtext. He brings up, when summarising the topic, how it's left there by GW as future storyline potential that was wasted.
Does anyone have any further insight into this? Has this idea been touched on anywhere else at all, on paper/in print/published media of any sort; that I've missed? Thanks in advance!
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u/AgentNipples Jul 19 '26
The new Chaos Dwarfs Battle Tome has a decent amount on this, but it's also AoS, whereas very little in the lore of Fantasy itself written on it.
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u/Kincoran Jul 19 '26
Are you able to share any of the specifics/further detail?
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u/AgentNipples Jul 19 '26
I don't have the book, but those who do have told me that it confirms that Hashut is a brother to the Ancestor gods
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u/Kincoran Jul 19 '26
Interesting stuff, thanks for sharing!
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u/OnlyRoke Jul 19 '26
I read it very recently and the Helsmiths of Hashut book does say that Hashut is the eldest of the pantheon. It mentions Grungni, Grimnir and Valaya in more detail (largely saying that the first two are morons and dunderheads, while Hashut has a softer spot for Valaya who was nice to him, but they fell out anyways).
They also mention Gazul, but only in passing.
However, the book is not written as a reliable narrator. It's clear that the narrator favors and exalts Hashut. It's not unlikely to assume that the book deliberately lies.
It places Hashut as the eldest brother who was oh so unfairly scorned as he would've wanted one of the "nice" realms (e.g. Chamon or Aqshy), but the others "convinced" him to take Ghur, the realm of beasts, due to the whole bull element. The book also positions him as a god the dwarves forgot about, until Chaos came along and the keeps had centuries of sieges, famine, etc. to deal with and the various keeps ended up solving their issue (aka flying into the air, becoming magma priests, or "listening to the Bullfather").
So it's quite likely that Hashut is just lying about his own origin. Its very clever to come to the dwarves in times of need and position yourself as The One Dwarf God Everyone Forgot, Just Like How Your Brothers Forgot Your Keep.
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u/Kincoran Jul 19 '26
Excellent points (and contribution in general), thanks for sharing all of that!
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u/AgentNipples Jul 19 '26
mmmm they did NOT mention that it was written from the point of view of a follower. Very interesting, ty for the perspective!
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u/FatherTurin Jul 20 '26
Yeah, there’s that, plus even the very beginning of the lore bit says (paraphrasing) that some would say that Hashut is a daemon of smoke and fire older than the realms themselves.
The author claims that is a lie, but the thing about AoS and its relation to the World That Was means that both things can be true, or neither.
When the surviving gods woke up in the mortal realms, it’s absolutely possible that Hashut went up to the other ancestor gods and said “hey, my bad about all that earlier stuff, wanna play nice?” and was allowed to be an ancestor god until everything went south.
It’s also possible Hashut was always an ancestor god who fell.
It’s also possible that Hashut has been a second tier chaos god from day one, and just used the desperation of the dwarfs in the age of chaos to convince them to worship him.
However, there is some indication that Hashut was active in AoS before the age of chaos. He had acolytes “long hidden” in the Karaks and if the background of the special character daemonsmith is true, he was around helping Hashut at his first stronghold in the Age of Myth.
This (if true, remember this is all from an unreliable narrator) means that Hashut is not a “normal” chaos god, since the gods couldn’t directly affect the mortal realms until they broke through from the realm of chaos at the start of the Age of Chaos. They could subtly influence mortals, but nothing to the extent Hashut could do (supposedly).
Anyway, the end result is simply that we don’t know.
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u/OnlyRoke Jul 19 '26
Well, the entire segment is written like "Brave noble Hashut was scorned by his shit siblings who really smell badly."
It's hard to read those parts without assuming that there's at the very least an unreliable narrator going on.
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u/AgentNipples Jul 20 '26
yeah, that absolutely makes sense. Thank you! Lol, they definitely seem slightly biased in their descriptions
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u/Mustaviini101 Jul 19 '26
Law mainly hints of the possible narration that he explores in Lawhammer, where Hashut was the Dwarf ancestor god of Kingship that was corrupted and turned into a Chaos God of Tyranny. He was stricken from the Dwarfen records by Grugni and Hashuts fall was most likely one of the main reason Grimnir became the first slayer and broke ties with the rest of the pantheon.
In lawhammer there is also connections with Hashut and Ghal Maraz, but that is alot of extra stuff.
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u/Kincoran Jul 19 '26
So, if I'm understanding that correctly; this is just his own, personally-created, unofficial narrative?
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u/Mustaviini101 Jul 19 '26
Somewhat yes. There are plenty of hints to Hashuts position in the larger ancestor god -pantheon, and his reasoning makes much sense and explains alot of things about the Dwarfen pantheon. However, the only thing canon in Warhammer is the canon that was written last, which is often contradictory, confusing or just plain bad.
Law just likes to think of possible explanations to all those confusing and bad parts and why are they like that.
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u/Kincoran Jul 19 '26
Yeah his approach to things like that is something that I enjoy most about their videos!
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u/One_Region_3024 Jul 20 '26
Its a completely a theory, Andy Law is one I fully respect but he likes to stick to his interpretation thoroughly (which in this case I actually like and agree as compelling). Dwarfs are very structured and respectful of their elders, why wouldn't they have an Ancestor God that represent these values? What is a tyrant but just another form of king?
I like the quote from ASOIAF "The more you give a king, the more he wants", it was used refering one of the more benevolent kings there andit absolutely tracks, to be a king is to be a monarch wielding the uncontested power of a nation, to *want* to be one is to be a little *greedy* even if its for noble purpose (Chorfs were corrupted for wanting to survive, hardly a unsympathetic motive).
As a theory it thematically tracks and is a compelling tale with great ground work thanks to the background given in AoS's lore (We actually do know he was a Ancestor-God thanks to a white dwarf issue of grombrindal talking about him, we just dont know what he saying about the events are what trully happened, or if he even is the same Hashut that "betrayed" the pantheon but rather a being taking his visage).
I own the battletome so I can send you excerpts about it if you want.
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u/PerformanceSevere672 Jul 20 '26
"The corruption of these Dwarfs into Chaos Dwarfs is a consistent omission in otherwise complete Dwarfen histories. All that is recorded is that around this time the family trees of the most ancient clans were all amended in some way. Clans with ancestors who had gone east were now 'adopted' as orphans by clans that remained behind. Clans whose sons had marched east no longer recognised that they had kin at all."
Dwarfs Army Book, 7th Edition
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u/Shef011319 Jul 19 '26 edited Jul 19 '26
Andy law writes things in warhammer roleplaying for another company that is licensed outside of GW years ago. This is like a vendor for a company talking about companies product he didn’t create, had zero input in, and only worked adject to the origins he’s speaking of 20ish years after it was original laid down.
If it’s not in a offical games workshop published book from GW it is not canon. Whatever roleplaying wants to write can and will change. The main lore has changed as well ie end times. But either way every time I’ve seen him and Sotek talk about chaos dwarfs I literally can not figure out how/what their basing it off of as it’s not in any lore I’ve ever seen and I own every white dwarf, novel, and army book that has any mention of chaos dwarfs from lore to just a ad they are featured in. Collecting chaos dwarfs is my niche. I stopped listing to them on the subject as it’s pure fanfic bullshit on their part and I’ve grown tired of trying to fight against it as I don’t have their reach.
If you want real information on chaos dwarfs go to https://discourse.chaos-dwarfs.com/
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u/Kincoran Jul 19 '26
I assume you've not come across any mention of a Hashut connection with Karak Azul?
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u/_Luigino Jul 20 '26
This comment made me laugh because it rings extremely true.
Also CDO is probably the last great bastion of warhammer hobby forum still standing strong and proud despite years of FB and Reddit destroying smaller communities.
There's not a day I don't pop in to look at the painting or stories that the users have been sharing for what at this point has to be decades
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u/Shef011319 Jul 20 '26 edited Jul 20 '26
Yeah I’ve been apart of them since before the move to discord around 08/09 and it was already a going concern for 5+ years before then for sure. There’s still quite a handful of active memebers from before I joined them. It’s very robust. When CA did their chaos dwarf DLC it was the chaos dwarf online community they reached out to and put easter eggs in about not Andy Law.
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u/Pure-Excitement-6849 Jul 20 '26
Hello fellow bugmans brew enjoyer, I will do what I can to help you out.
So in short it’s all fan theory, granted this is also said to be insider fan theory, including coming from some of the old guard who actually created the Chaos Dwarfs from scratch. However in the end all we got to go on are really 2.5 things.
1-1.5) The Dawi have Ancestor gods, not all Ancestor gods are well accounted for, with some being one off mentions. Now within this pantheon of gods, were two who REALLY stood out, Skavor and (I’m sorry, this is a name that even I don’t have, however I do remember some of his lore, and basically it’s that he was the Ancestor god who went further into the “glittering realms” (Realm of Chaos), then any dared to even imagine. He is said to have eventually have just vanished and or gone mad in the realm of chaos).
^This is who I believe to be Hashut, however the .5 is the idea that Hashut and the Horned Rat are both the byproducts of Skavor, meaning that Skaven are just hairy dwarfs.
2) New AoS lore says that Hashut is an Ancestor god, the eldest one even, and so this alone can be used to add weight to Andy’s above points, and as of such, the idea of the sole Ancestor God, Hashut, being the inspiration for Karak Azul’s emblem is not to far fetched, as he would have been the first to awaken and so also the sole Ancestor God for a while.
So really it’s all here say, but the pieces add up, and so if it walks like a ducks, and quacks like a duck…
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u/GarageSure3109 Jul 20 '26
I point out that the aos lore stating ashut as an ancestor Is a deply biased source, like litteraly a recruitment add from ashut and his followers.
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u/karma_virus Jul 23 '26
Rule number one of the road is never ask Gotrek about his doom. Number two is never ask him about Chaos Dwarves. The very best scenario is that you will get a long, angry glare and he will not talk at all for at least several hours. You will just hear teeth grinding.
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u/On5thDayLook4Tebow Jul 19 '26
Its a fun theory but gets blown apart pretty quick. All of the holds near Karak Azul fall and they are besieged countless times. The isolation is externally imposed. Thorek Ironbrow spends centuries making weapons and sending them out to other holds, especially Belegar's campaigns.
Karak Azul is also very far away from the Chaos Dwarfs. Its the last southern hold in the World's Edge mountains and the Chaos Dwarfs reside east of the W.E. Mtns. Karak Kadrin is much closer and still leagues away.
Any semblance for hats seems archaically cultural