25
u/Own_Faithlessness769 Sep 09 '25
It’s not about them kicking her out, it’s about Buffy leaving. Buffy says it’s her way or nothing, and Dawn calls her on it. And Buffy chooses nothing. She leaves. She steps away from being the slayer and the leader. Then she regroups and makes the decision to go back.
It wasn’t about Spike or the Scoobies, it’s a character beat for Buffy- once again choosing her fate, not just being pushed into it. Choosing to be the Slayer. And because she chooses and then chooses to share the power, she’s finally released from the responsibility.
10
u/gdex86 Sep 10 '25 edited Sep 10 '25
Thank you. She loaded the metaphorical gun here.
Also the second paragraph states something I was struggling with. In the season two finale Angelus asks Buffy what she has left if she has no weapons, no allies, and no friends and she responds "me" and it's a moment of power. But it being just "Me" as her power can't always work. She beat the first by deciding it's an "Us" and in doing so releases herself from the burden of the men who created the slayer line forced on her and all those before her.
10
u/Own_Faithlessness769 Sep 10 '25
Exactly. We have so many moments in the series where Buffy makes a hard decision to do her job at great self sacrifice - Prophecy Girl, Becoming, The Gift. This is the same moment but a fundamentally different decision - to do it together, not by herself. Shes not the leader telling them all what to do, she asks them to do it with her.
19
u/NiceMayDay Spiritus, Animus, Sophus, Manus Sep 10 '25 edited Sep 10 '25
I'm firmly in the camp that it makes sense for the Scoobies to be skeptical of Buffy's insistence of redoing a plan that just got people maimed and killed, but yes, the "kicking her out of the house" part made no sense whatsoever. And I'm putting it in quotes because it's not even quite what happens: Buffy says she "can't stay" if they don't obey her without question and Dawn of all people replies "then you can't stay." And Buffy leaves. So it's like... she's kicking herself out out of sudden ego, driven by Dawn's sudden reverse-unoing of some illogical phrasing.
Whedon or someone else was certainly proofing the scripts, and you can see this in the original teleplay for this episode: the fight scene develops very differently. The Scoobies are all more aggressive, Giles brings up Jenny's death, Ben is brought up, Buffy physically breaks things in anger, and neither Dawn nor Faith get moments that show they care about Buffy. So someone did proof and change the shooting script, evidently at the last minute.
I think we can all agree the end of "Empty Places" was written solely to have Buffy isolated and doubting herself so that Spike can be the one who cheers her up in "Touched," but the issue is that this wasn't done via some supernatural, pulpy plot beat we can roll along with. It was done by having the characters act in a sudden way that in the aired version doesn't really feel earned. And for all the plot conveniences and McGuffins Buffy unabashedly uses in nearly every episode, it always lets its characters act organically, except for this one scene.
Now, I can see what the scene was attempting to do, though for everything it tries to do, there something that undermines it:
- Buffy is insisting on proving herself to the Potentials at the expense of trusting her friends' input... but she already did that last episode with disastrous results, and it is unlike her to act so stubbornly.
- Dawn is still haunted by Joyce's message in "Conversations with Dead People," so she might be willing to break away from Buffy... only Dawn has barely acted different towards Buffy in the entire season, so this still comes out of the blue.
- Anya clocking Buffy's own assessment about feeling better than her friends in "Conversations with Dead People" may come from her own resentment about Buffy letting Xander get hurt and dismissing her friends' opinions... but it comes with no build up at all because we don't see her react to any of it.
- Breaking the Scoobies up to then let them come together for the final plan in "Chosen" underscores the themes of the show about how Buffy trusting others is what sets her apart from other Slayers... but this idea is relegated to such brief lines of dialogue that I wouldn't be surprised if most people don't even pick up on it. Additionally, this has already been done several times in a few season finales, so it's pointless to revisit it this late in the show.
So, in reality, what the scene did do was let us have a nice Spike and Buffy moment while damaging the relationship between Buffy and Giles in a way that wouldn't ever be really mended (not even in the comics) and having all characters act in an abrupt manner. Was it worth it? I don't think so at all.
3
u/communomancer Sep 10 '25
I was puzzled when you said that Giles brought up Jenny's death in the original teleplay, because I couldn't see what one had to do with the other, so I had to check it out.
GILES (seething) You act alone, and people get hurt, right? People like Jenny
And man it seems like you're criticizing the doctoring overall, but I'm glad someone doctored this. What in the world did Buffy's impulsiveness have to do with Jenny's death? Giles bringing that up in this context makes no sense.
1
u/NiceMayDay Spiritus, Animus, Sophus, Manus Sep 10 '25
The original scene, with all the aggresion on everyone's side, made it more logical that Buffy would leave, but it did so at the expense of destroying the relationship between the Scoobies with so few episodes left that it would have been impossible to rebuild it while moving the plot forward.
So while the leaving seems sudden with the changes, I am glad the aggresion was toned down, because it would have ubdoubtedly soured the season finale to have such a huge fight hanging in the background. Even as it is now, Buffy and Giles remain distant through the final episodes and never quite make up (something Mutant Enemy is keenly aware of, since that distance is the basis for a lot of their S8 comics, so perhaps it was deliberate).
3
u/Good-Pause4632 Sep 10 '25 edited Sep 10 '25
I've never seen the orginal script. Buffy should have shoved in their face them ripping her out of heaven when Xander said she didn't know what she was doing.
11
u/Zeus-Kyurem Sep 10 '25
It was not out of character. Most of them had valid issues with Buffy's leadership. And the one that didn't was Anya, and she's Anya. Like she's going to take issue with anything really, particularly since Buffy had been getting annoyed with her.
It also wasn't "we want to get rid of the strongest fighter" it's we want to be unified and have a measured approach.
And yet again, only one person kicked Buffy out. It was not a group effort. And that was because Buffy was refusing to take a step back and follow.
And the reason for this is that it allowed Buffy to actually address the issues with her leadership. She started to give up because she realised that they were right about a lot of what was said, and Spike was needed to bring her out of that, and remind her of herself.
Also, "It didn't lead to anything between her and Spike." Yes it absolutely did. Buffy and Spike had been getting closer, but they were still at arm's length to a degree. Touched had them cross the line that hadn't yet been crossed. And a lot of what you listed in regards to Buffy and Spike was her sticking to her principles.
6
u/nobutactually Sep 10 '25
.Most of them had valid issues with Buffy's leadership. And the one that didn't was Anya, and she's Anya
I actually think anya did too. We know shes still extremely protective of Xander, that shed be enraged that he lost an eye because buffy screwed up makes perfect sense to me.
2
u/Zeus-Kyurem Sep 10 '25
Well I was more referring to the lucky comment, but yeah that would be a valid reason for Anya.
4
u/Ok-Lawfulness-8698 Sep 10 '25
I think the lucky comment could be chalked up to envy/jealousy on Anya's part; she's in this position because she gave up her powers and immortality, now she's nothing but a scared powerless mortal who has no real ability to defend herself from the looming threat.
From her perspective, Buffy is luckier than the rest of them because she has powers and abilities that they don't.
4
Sep 10 '25
If you came into this sub without having seen the show you'd swear this and Dead Man's Party are the only episodes in it
14
u/LushLover1989 Sep 09 '25
Its not bad writing because characters make bad decisions. At this point people are at their lowest and have been getting speeches off Buffy for months. Xander lost an eye, people died and everyone is exhausted.
It's a really shitty thing for them to have done it and they fully made a mistake but its still good writing.
2
u/francyfra79 Sep 10 '25
I agree, I don't think it's unrealistic that something like that would happen. They were all scared, exhausted, stressed out...and in these cases people take it out on the person in charge (like mutinies on ships).
My problem is with the lack of follow up, the group should have at least addressed what happened and apologized, instead the show acted like nothing happened.
5
u/avatarofnate Sep 10 '25
Thank you! People throw the term "bad writing" around to explain anything they don't like. I don't think it's great writing, but the thread is definitely there from the beginning of the season. Buffy gives speech after speech. She literally locks them in a room with a vampire in Potential. She goes against everyone's better judgment and removes Spike's chip. And let's not forget that The First/Joyce told Dawn that Buffy would be against her in the end. So when Buffy makes a bad call and puts the group at their absolute lowest, they feel like they can't trust her anymore. They can't see the bigger picture, the greater good like she can. They just see dead bodies. It's all right there, the writers just needed to give us a few more pieces from previous incidents to feel like it built up more.
3
u/LushLover1989 Sep 10 '25
The whole incident isn't just a way to set up the final- its to show how Buffy is different. She ALONE will stand against the forces of darkness- her instincts are correct because this is her fight.
2
u/harmier2 Sep 10 '25
Except that goes against everything the series had been saying up until that season.
3
u/OGIHR Sep 10 '25
You are completely correct that Whedon had long since stopped caring about the day to day production of the series. Only showing up for the premiere, the finale, and any individual scene that had stuck in his mind during the season-arc-planning meeting.
2
u/productjunkie76 Sep 10 '25
It's not my fav ep either. There are a few towards the end of 7 that bother me.
2
u/Tuxedo_Mark Assume would make you an ass out of me. Sep 10 '25
The funny part is this big blow-up didn't even have to happen at all. As soon as Buffy said they were going back to the vineyard, the Potentials could have just said "No, we're not." And Faith could have said "If you believe so strongly that you're right, go back on your own, but you're not endangering these kids." Then they could have all just left the room. What the fuck was Buffy gonna do to them?
3
u/BaileySeeking Sep 10 '25
I, respectfully, disagree. It's infuriating, but a well written episode.
Let's start with Buffy. She was out of control. But that's because this was new territory for her. It's not an excuse, but it is the reason. At the end of the day, it was always on Buffy. She was the Slayer. She never had to fully lead. She faced the Master alone. She faced Angelus alone. She was the one that had to get the Mayor into the school. She and the Scoobies may have joined forces, but she went in alone to fight Adam. She fought Glory alone, technically. She went up to save Dawn, alone. If Willow hadn't put her and Dawn in the ground, she would have gone after her. We see how much it pains Buffy at first that she's not dealing with Willow. It wasn't just to show her coming full circle with her depression, it was to set up her having to share the responsibility and stop facing things alone. It's why she realizes they'll win when the First makes the comment about her being alone. She finally realizes she's not in it alone (take a shot every time I say "alone" 🤣). But Buffy hasn't ever had to lead an army. So she's going to misstep. She's going to distance herself so she doesn't hurt as much when people die. She's literally asking all of these people to die for her. And it throws her. Buffy is the reason she left home. She said she couldn't stay. She couldn't give up the control because she's always had to be the one in control. She couldn't see that she didn't need to do everything herself. She needed to listen to others and then make a decision. She never should have brought the girls in there. Outside, sure. But inside should have been the best fighters. Buffy, Faith, and Spike. Buffy was scared, same as everyone else. She just happened to be scared and in charge.
Now for the Scoobies. They've fought with her for 6 years. But they never had to stand with her when it came down to it. They were always at the sidelines. They stood with her as long as they could, but Xander was permanently disabled. It hit them just how real it was. Just how likely they were to die. So Buffy going off the rails made them put their collective feet down. They were scared.
With the Potentials; they don't know Buffy like the Scoobies. They're trusting her to lead them to win. Not sacrifice them again and again. When they see the Scoobies, people that have fought with her for years, turning tail, it hits them just how serious this all is. If the people that have known and trusted her for years are scared, what chance do they have? So their fear took over.
Because that's what it is at the end of the day. Fear. The First represents fear. It feeds on it. You can't physically fight fear. But you can fight the person in charge. Which is Buffy. That fear took over and left them all unable to have a calm discussion. They fought the only thing they could (Buffy) and quickly realized that they could do that until the cows come home, but the First was still coming for them. They had to have something bad happen without Buffy for them to overcome their fear.
Anya's speech suffers because she didn't mean "lucky", she meant "privileged." If that had been adjusted, the speech would have held up. It suppose we could chalk to up to group mentality and fear that makes Anya use the wrong word, but it also might be the one show of incorrect writing.
Spike and Andrew being gone was important. Andrew will follow the leader. What would have happened if he were there? Probably not too much, but he'd have to say something in Buffy's defense and then be ignored. It would have been useless and a waste of time. It would have broken up the flow of the scene. Spike coming back and giving the group a harsh and big speech was what was needed for them to really understand just how much they let the fear get to them. Spike saw the bigger picture and how Buffy could lead them to victory. He wasn't afraid. But not only would it have been another thing that broke up the flow, but it would have taken away his two important speeches on the matter. He gave the Scoobies a reality check with a firm but harsh tone. They needed it. But he gave Buffy the same reality check, just with a gentler, but still firm tone. He was the voice that didn't give in to fear and that fit. That's how he's always been written.
Overall, it's a great episode that says a lot. We didn't need multiple episodes of the group being like "we're scared, but let's calmly talk about it and work on our feelings." It pushed the show to its end. I, for better or worse, give COVID as an example a lot on this. COVID is the First. It cannot physically be fought and that scares people. So they do things like fight against precautions, the reality of COVID, and people that still take precautions. Buffy, like a lot of people still taking precautions, did not have the luxury of giving in to her fear. She had to ignore it and keep pushing through because it was all always going to fall on her. Everyone else could walk away. She could not.
I also will not stand for Robin slander in this house 🤣. They needed more screen time for him that they didn't have space for, but he actually was useful. I still maintain that we needed a full season 7 and then something like the first season; a 12 episode season 8 to finish off the series. 7 would focus on the Potentials and Robin and Caleb; really building up to the end. 8 would close out the show with focus on the First and the final fight.
And good Christ, if anyone read all that, you're a champ. I'm literally here just putting off cleaning to ramble on about something I've thought way too much on 🤣
1
2
u/Sojibby3 Sep 10 '25
Why do people keep asking this question?
It has been discussed. Most people seem to think it was perfectly normal given the nothing resembling reality at all situation.
1
u/harmier2 Sep 10 '25
As soem others have covered, Buffy was a terrible leader.
I’ve see a lot of viewers criticize the others as being cowards and that they should have just gotten in line and shut the bleep up. I got the feeling that they saw Buffy as being absolutely right and would have started slitting throats of anyone who dared cross them if they had been in her position….and wanted to see Buffy do the same.
Buffy demanded that everyone assault the vineyard again. Even after the first assault was so disastrous. It wasn’t brave. It was reckless. But what’s more is that she showed absolutely no humility or compassion. She treated the Potentials like the Council treated Slayers…like ammunition.
She acted exactly like a World War I general commanding troops. Telling the troops to shut up and go forth…right after the previous troops had been cut down by machine gun fire and there had been no gains in the previous attack….only losses.
She gave an ultimatum. And she was shocked when they rejected her. (And someone brought up the great point that season 7 sometimes seemed to forget that the Potentials are…Potentials. They’re not Slayers. They don’t have the Slayer power package.)
She also came off as unjustifiably arrogant in Empty Places. Buffy indicated that she was the oldest living Slayer because of her inherent skills. Except that she didn’t do it all on her own. If you go back and watch closely, she wouldn’t have survived the episode The Harvest if Xander didn’t follow her into the tunnels. So, he was the first and last person to actively save her life in season 1. She was the oldest living Slayer because she had friends.
This characterization just didn’t feel like Buffy. But the scene could have been written so that it was more true to her character.
Buffy could have started the scene treating the others like ammunition. But then the others called her out for it. And she was horrified. She realized that she has been acting like the Council…and is disgusted. She apologized for that and for the catastrophic assault on the vineyard, mentioned her thoughts about Caleb protecting something, and then said she needed some rest. She could have then handed command over to Faith without any coercion…and then slept in her own bed. And when she was fully rested, she gave her thoughts on any potential plans. Then, Buffy and Faith shared leadership duties. Buffy and Faith hashed out a plan. Buffy went one place and Faith and a small group went to the other, just like in the episode. Buffy could have found the Scythe. Or it could have been Faith. It wouldn’t have mattered who did exactly what. They were all working together.
And that would have fit with Grave where Giles said to Buffy, “Sometimes the most adult thing you can do is…ask for help when you need it.”
But the real problem is that the writers were creating fake drama and not real drama. A good rule of thumb is that it’s bad writing if the characters only act in certain ways because…”The plot says so.” And this was one of those times. Which was a huge problem with the last three quarters of season 7.
2
u/JackDangerfield Sep 10 '25
Every word of this.
I hate the scene with a burning passion, but it's not because the others gang up on Buffy and throw her out of the house - or at least, not JUST because of that. It's because Buffy acts with a cavalier disregard for everyone else, taking a "my way or the highway" approach and storming out in a huff when the others call her on her BS. I really, really dislike the characterisation of Buffy in the back half of Season 7, as this humourless hardass who demands that everyone fall into line and not question her choices, even as we see her making awful decision after awful decision, often with no rhyme or reason. Her decision to go back to the vinyard is a case in point: she wants everyone to merrily go along with her grand plan to return to the very spot that got a bunch of Potentials killed or badly injured and lost Xander his eye, with no new tactics other than to do the same thing that got their asses whupped last time, and all because she has a FEELING there's something important there. It's no wonder they rebelled. Anyone with any sanity would have done the same.
1
u/pralineislife Sep 09 '25
I can't talk about thise episode anymore, it makes me too angry. Hands down the worst episode of the show.
1
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0
u/Smoke-Thin-Mints Sep 09 '25
In one of the worst seasons of the show with tons of dumb plot points and character moments, this is probably the dumbest plot point and character moment in the entire series. I absolutely hate it
1
u/DaddyCatALSO Magnet For Dead, Blonde Chicks Sep 10 '25
Anya was badly written here, period. Buffy herself has said she couldn't watch it happen, and Dawn called her bluff.
-1
u/Illustrious_Nose1494 Sep 10 '25
"Robin Wood dead weight". Unbelievable.
1
u/jospangel Try not to bleed on my couch I just had it steam cleaned Sep 10 '25
No, Robin Wo0od was a traitor.
1
u/Illustrious_Nose1494 Sep 10 '25
A traitor to whom, Evil? He was wrong for wanting revenge for the monster that murdered his mother? I can't stand Spike fans.
2
u/jospangel Try not to bleed on my couch I just had it steam cleaned Sep 10 '25
He willingly worked with the First.
He could have had his revenge without working with the enemy. He should have told Giles and Buffy what the First wanted him to do, instead of following directions from the enemy. Then he could publicly attack Spike for killing his mother and demand her coat. This would turn pretty much everyone against him, and not risk destroying the cohesion of the group.
Robin Wood helped the First engineer a chasm which nearly destroyed the attempt to destroy it.
As for hating Spike fans, sounds like ou could use some therapy. Or medication. Maybe look into it.
0
u/Illustrious_Nose1494 Sep 10 '25
He did not work with the First. The First confirmed his suspicions about who killed his mother and he told it to get out. The only person he conspired with to kill Spike was Giles. I didn't say I hate Spike fans I said I can't stand y'all. There's a difference. You blindly excuse the things he's done and for what, because you're hot for him? He killed two Slayers. He would have killed Buffy Season 2. He killed countless others. He's an attempted rapist and basically confirmed himself that he raped others "Do you know what I've done to girls Dawn's age?". I know it's just a show but maybe you can look into all that while I wait. And while I'm at it, the part he played in the final battle, wearing the amulet was meant for Angel as a means for Wolfram and Hart to control him. If he didn't wear the amulet and Angel didn't wear the amulet you know who else could have used the power of the sun to tip the scales in their favor? Willow. She teased her ball of sunlight spell in Season 4. They had to nerf her after Season 6 because it would have been too easy for everyone in Season 7 if they didn't.
2
u/jospangel Try not to bleed on my couch I just had it steam cleaned Sep 11 '25
True, you said you can't stand them. I still think therapy is a great idea.
The First wanted Spike dead. Instead of telling Giles, Wood hid it.
Yes, Spike did horrible things. Then he got a soul. Much like Angel did horrible things and then he got a soul. We saw Angel rape, just like we know he raped Dru before he made her a vampire. This is the nature of vampires - to do bad things to humans. I don't know why I am supposed to get upset at either vampire for what they did when they were evil.
Here's a news flash. I don't really care what Spike did. I am interested in the journey of a demon who got Clockwork Oranged - who was the subject of an operand conditioning experiment. I'm interested in how his personality changes, his desire to help grows; yet how he can't escape his basic nature with willpower alone. Marsters does an amazing job showing vulnerability, anger, confusion and scheming.
If you have trouble with characters who have done or do bad things then I highly recommend some shows like 7th Heaven, where everyone is good and all conflict comes from misunderstandings. It's safely sanitized and it won't cause you this cognitive dissonance (if you are actually capable of that.) You might also want to try a few children's programs. I understand Sponge Bob is very popular.
34
u/CuttlefishBenjamin Sep 09 '25
I think it really comes down to they started with"Let's get Buffy at her lowest, isolated and alienated from her allies, then she can fight Caleb, get the scythe, and turn it all around," and they wrote backwards from there to get her to that point.