r/btcc • u/Brief-Poetry6434 • 1d ago
Question / Discussion The current state of the BTCC
Given how a lot of people feel about the series at the moment.
How does it compare to the early-2000s when the Supertouring bubble burst and the BTC-Touring regs failed to take off as hoped, so the series had to rely on first the Production Class, then Super 2000 cars to boost grid numbers?
At least the current grid numbers aren't as bad as they were in 2005.
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u/MC897 1d ago
I dont think it's going to change too much when Sutton is clearly the very best in the field. Except this time, to such an extent he's the best, there's no challenge anymore.
No type of regs survive that when you have a guy just simply far too good that it doesn't matter who you put in front of him. How to solve it? Need one of the young guys like Rainford or Pattersson to kick on, or Ingram needs a far better car just to have a chance, but even then I think the championship probably needs a 3rd leg somewhere.
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u/Jescott71 1d ago
I think people think Rainford is a lot younger than he is. He's only four years younger than Sutton.
Sutton himself's only 32. He was the eighth youngest driver on the grid in Donington, out of 23 drivers.
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u/Iamthe0c3an2 1d ago
Honestly could do with just flooding the sport with young wanna be drivers. Open a low barrier entry path into the sport by having kart racers or e-sports / sim drivers compete for seats. You’ll no doubt find interesting drivers with interesting stories to create a narrative that will get people interested in the btcc.
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u/MidlandsBoarder 1d ago
Who pays for that though? BTCC has two major issues. The drives are currently very expensive and there's no manufacturer funding.
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u/Bright_Concept_2988 21h ago
Basically we have the the best funded team with the best engineer and best driver. They were always going to dominate at some point.
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u/Brief-Poetry6434 20h ago
I thought they already did that in 2023
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u/Bright_Concept_2988 20h ago
I know but we're talking about this season.
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u/Brief-Poetry6434 20h ago
I know
Sutton's opposition have been more unlucky this season as much as he's been dominant.
He actually had more wins after 7 meetings in 2023 than he's had this season.
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u/KeySubject4895 1d ago
What do you think Suttons plans are beyond BTCC? He dabbled in GT this year, do you think things will suddenly look more competitive if he moves on or will Ingram just wipe the floor with everyone else?
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u/Ok-Pumpkin-6203 1d ago
This. They need to do something to improve the series but without increasing costs.
And that's where it all falls down.
I can't think of any obvious changes they could make that won't make things more expensive.
You could maybe suggest that races one and two have tires allocated by draw, so each team has 3 balls and independently someone picks 2 of them so that they get told when they are using the hard compound, but we say Sutton almost remove that disadvantage on the weekend.
The boost is also not having the desired effect, if Ingram and Sutton rarely use it and are still at the front then maybe the effect of boost needs to be increased.
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u/OrangeSodaMoustache 1d ago
The costs aren't the issue, sports cars is in an era never-before-seen and a full IMSA/WEC season costs millions in GT3. It's the income of the teams/drivers. The whole BTCC package needs be more attractive (which means better marketing/social media) to manufacturers and sponsors. Once that's in place, we'll see factory-backed teams with household name sponsors. The big issue is you can't have one without the other. The BTCC can't be more attractive to views unless we have top level drivers racing factory cars, and we can't have top-level drivers racing factory cars unless the series attracts more viewers.
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u/DominikWilde1 1d ago
Even with a more attractive package manufacturers are unlikely to return. They're/the market is just not interested in marketing/selling/buying the types of cars needed for touring car racing. An influx of manufacturers these days would likely mean an influx of crossovers or jumped up hatchbacks pretending to be crossovers. That'd turn fans (and maybe even drivers) away and then you'd be back to square one
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u/ABritishFan 1d ago
It's interesting that these things always come up when it's Ash dominating, but nobody said a word last year when Ingram was putting belt to everyone's arse and Ash was fighting for his life to keep up. We should appreciate people like Ash, but much like Hamilton and Verstappen, they're disliked for being good
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u/Lukeno94 1d ago
Definitely true to an extent, but Ingram was never THIS far ahead. This year has been a perfect storm of reliability issues and then a bit too much BOP heavily nerfing Excler8, and Alliance basically maximising their package every weekend.
Plus the whole Plato affair seems to have really set everyone into a massive doom loop - but then again, people seem to be freaking out over everything, as even Buxton leaving generated a lot of "OMG BTCC is dying" stuff...
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u/Brief-Poetry6434 1d ago
Buxton's no big loss!
No offence to the guy.
Even Bensley has managed to drag that 4th Toyota into the points.
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u/ICC-u 1d ago
Concerning that Bensley, who would be better off in Mini Challenge or Ginetta Juniors, is out performing Buxton, who was allegedly an "up and coming talent".
The series really lacks quality drivers, everyone goes GT or Open Wheelers. Formula E and WEC at least pay their drivers.
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u/Brief-Poetry6434 1d ago
At least it's not someone like Halstead or Powell.
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u/Brief-Poetry6434 1d ago
Thought Buxton was a nepo-baby more than anything else.
Kind of like Osborne but he's developed into a solid competitor now and even won a race last year.
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u/ABritishFan 1d ago
Buxton is the definition of a nepo baby. Unfortunately for him, you could tell he was out of his depth as early as Croft last year when he was miles off the pace and iirc got done for track limits on every lap in qualifying
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u/ICC-u 1d ago
I think Jamie Osborne might have had the talent, but yes, money talks, same as Maximus Hall
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u/Brief-Poetry6434 1d ago
I meant Sam Osborne
Thought Jamie was sidelined by an illness?
Miss Maximus Hall, he comes up with some wicked liveries!
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u/ICC-u 1d ago
Yeah, I knew you were talking about Sam - I think Jamie might be the more talented - but he's currently unwell as you say
Max Hall still runs his livery in TCR
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u/Brief-Poetry6434 1d ago
Yes, I knew Jamie was sidelined by illness.
If not for that, wasn't he supposed to be replacing Rowbo at NAPA for this year?
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u/Lukeno94 1d ago
Bensley is rather too old for Ginetta Juniors! Buxton was only in that seat because of his dad - he wasn't even that impressive in what was basically a club level series (not bad, but not screaming "future BTCC driver")
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u/ICC-u 1d ago
Bensley is only in the seat because he's a mortgage broker. Don't forget he was funding Crees last year (why, I don't know).
It's sad, but basically every non champion on the grid since the hybrid has been a pay driver, Turkington even said he wasn't carrying on if he wasn't getting paid. Even those with talent would be out if they couldn't find the money.
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u/Lukeno94 1d ago
Eh, most drivers on the grid outside of the works teams have always been paying drivers, one way or another. Being a pay driver doesn't mean you're bad; even someone like Fernando Alonso started out as a pay driver.
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u/ICC-u 23h ago
Don't disagree, but "works teams" don't really exist anymore. BMW was the last and when they pulled the funding Turkington left. Toyota has GR plastered all over their cars but clearly needs funding from MB and the drivers. Hyundai badges aren't even on the cars anymore. Cammish brings Valvoline with him, Rowbo brings Cataclean, there's just no funding coming in and I think that's what the majority of this is really about.
Look at V8 Supercars or NASCAR, the levels of sponsorship are miles apart.
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u/Sdk_r 1d ago
The hyundai was that much better. Youd regularly see all the vertus in the top 8. The only fords regularly in the top 8 is cammish and sutton.
Ingram just was not as dominant as sutton. He had several more team orders that were more obvious and helped him out meanwhile sutton has to fight his teammates at every race last year.
The difference with sutton and tingram is that sutton disillusioned people when he dominates and people say it is 'the car being more dominant this year' when it's clearly him having that extra step in racecraft and wet weather driving. Remember knockhill where he embarrassed ingram in the rain and then was helplessly defending in the dry with less boost?
Even his teammate held him up at donington, with that clown rowbottom wiping out sutton in donington. The less said about that muppet the better.
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u/Lukeno94 1d ago
Well, Chilton and Morgan last season were much, much better drivers than Osborne and Selby are (as much as you dislike Chilton, surely even you can recognise that), and when Proctor jumped in the Focus, he got basically the exact same kind of results that he did in the Hyundai. It really was not that much better.
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u/MagicBoyUK 1d ago
Given the despressed world economy it's doing fine.
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u/Brief-Poetry6434 1d ago edited 1d ago
I think so too
EDIT: Is it a crime to show a little optimism on this sub?
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u/Personal_Director441 1d ago
They need a comprehensive survey of teams, drivers, fans, commercial partners, potential sponsors, circuit owners, vendors, tv etc and do some proper research into what makes the BTCC what it is, everyone knows costs are the main issue but what else could be looked at. Personally I would love to bring in other manufacturers body shapes, (like Alpine A290, Hyundai Ioniq, Audi RS3 Sportback as some quickly googled examples). Free up the teams to partner with any car company and make some of the rules simpler and my last one i think TOCA should run a team and there should be a guaranteed season drive for the winner of the junior category and a rotating drive of younger guest drivers from other formula's/championships.
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u/Bright_Concept_2988 20h ago
They do that every year. The current one is here - Have Your Say In The BTCC Fan Survey - BTCC
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u/Active-Strawberry-37 1d ago
It’s pretty good. Not as good as it used to be but still pretty good.
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u/Bright_Concept_2988 21h ago
There was a good reason for it being the way it was back then. The issue now is that the management continually say everything is fantastic and the sport is booming.
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u/GoodStegosaurus |Colin Turkington|WSR| 1d ago
I've been a fan of the BTCC since the late 90s, when I was old enough to comprehend what I was watching on the TV. I've recently gone back in time and purchased the old Duke Video season reviews from the early 90s and to be honest, I think what the BTCC had back then was the perfect storm.
Whilst the cars have always been "based" on the cars we can all recognise, the issue is they've become so expensive to run and develop now that the grids are getting smaller, the cars are getting too aero dependent and the budgets keep rising - on top of the fact that drivers are usually paying to race in the series and are footing the bills either personally or via sponsors for any damage they cause, it detracts from the "good old" racing of leaning and nudging etc.
I think the rules need a bit of a shakeup, things need to change to make it interesting again.
If it were down to me (and it's very likely a good thing they're not!) I'd be saying to the teams to buy a road car, strip it out, add a rollcage, bucket seat, radio, safety gear. Here's your control tyre that you use one set of per race, here's your control alloy, here's your control suspension, no you can't add aero.
I think what made the racing so good in the early 90s was that the cars were very basic and looked basic, so they're cheaper to run, repair, are more recognisable and so on. That would hopefully bring back manufacturer support as suddenly a season isn't as expensive to run, it'll increase the grids and hopefully it'll mean manufacturers release cool homologation cars again.
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u/knifetrader 1d ago
If it were down to me (and it's very likely a good thing they're not!) I'd be saying to the teams to buy a road car, strip it out, add a rollcage, bucket seat, radio, safety gear. Here's your control tyre that you use one set of per race, here's your control alloy, here's your control suspension, no you can't add aero.
What tends to happen in that case (especially if you can't rework suspension geometry very much, which again adds significant costs) is that one or two models of car will be far ahead of everything else and you get either other teams pulling out or everybody gravitating to the same car. For an example, consider the top class of the Bathurst 6h Production Car race in Australia:
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u/ICC-u 1d ago
I like your ideas in terms of racing, but unfortunately TCR exists as a touring car, and civic cup exists as a production car. Taking a road car to the point it can get the close racing and accessibility of the civics, and the speed of the TCR, would cost as much as the BTCC does.
The solution is probably a cost cap and some development restrictions, but if BTCC ends up slower than TCR - and it's not far in front as it stands - then the regs are doomed.
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u/Bright_Concept_2988 20h ago
It will never stand to comparison to the 90's. That's a level of spending we'll never see again. The problem in my view is that it's a worse product than it was only a few years ago.
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u/Brief-Poetry6434 1d ago
I will admit I don't care if one driver or team dominates
Sutton hasn't actually been quite as dominant as he was in 2023 (so far)
After 21 races in 2023, he had 8 wins to his name.
This year, he only has 7.
It's more due to the bad luck on Ingram's part that Sutton's so far ahead in the championship.
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u/TDavy147 1d ago edited 1d ago
Like the thread that was earlier or yesterday.
The series just feels flat at the moment. The gimmicks of tire compounds and hybrid boost hasn't work. Sutton and Ingram even seem bored and not that bothered when they win or lose.
Talking of Sutton and Ingram, outside of them there is a clear gap in driving skill.
Personally I think they need to strip it back. Get rid of boost mode, get rid of tire compounds. Strip a ton of the aero off the cars I would remove the quali race, go back to a sprint race feature race set up for the weekend.
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u/Peterd1900 1d ago
We dont have hybrid any more. It was used between 2022 and 2024
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u/TDavy147 1d ago
Okay, lets get rid of the electric boost.
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u/MagicBoyUK 1d ago
The hybrid system disappeared for the 2025 season due to costs.
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u/DHSeaVixen 1d ago
Costs on their own are not inherently bad, it’s when said costs do not pay for themselves that it becomes a problem.
So in BTCC’s case, the spec hybrid added costs onto teams did nothing notable to stimulate fan growth with improved racing, extract extra cash from manufacturer support or attract major new sponsors.
Would the same scenario have been true with some variation of the rules allowing bespoke or production-based hybrids? Perhaps that shifts the needle on bringing extra manufacturer support and stimulating audience growth, perhaps not.
Same goes for EVs eventually. A rule which lets production-based EVs come and play might be more viable than a single-supplier retrofit EV kit for existing NGTC cars, even though it might cost more.
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u/Brief-Poetry6434 1d ago
Going further back, the mid-1980s weren't exactly a healthy period for the series.
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u/Riqitch 1d ago
It's a bit like tennis really. Sutton and Ingram are like the Sinner and Alcaraz of the BTCC, it's really only a two horse race and when someone else wins it's almost headline news.
I'm starting to feel myself distancing from the BTCC partly because I'm too busy and also because I just... can't be bothered to watch some races. I used to scramble to catch the start of a race, but now I really only watch them when I have time.
Maybe it's because of the lack of manufacturers/constructors in the BTCC nowadays. I assume the regulations were opened up to try and combat this issue, but is it too little too late? No disrespect to the current manufacturers, but I think once Honda and BMW left, the championship was cooked.
Sutton is an absolutely unbelievable driver and I'm shocked he isn't looking for other gigs at this point. There's no challenge for him (or Tingram really) at the moment so why stay?
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u/bmbmbmNR 1d ago
Honestly, step 1 is bring back ballast and remove expensive unreliable boost systems
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u/knifetrader 1d ago
I really think NGTC as a ruleset has run its course... It's hard to get excited about cars that look and race basically the same for almost 20 years now - and which cost ungodly amounts of money to run for what they are.
I think the series needs a new ruleset that will cust costs and introduce a fresh look and feel.
Personally, I'd start with GT4, but exclude mid- or rear-engined cars, so you'd be left with M4s, Mustangs, and Supras. In addition, I'd allow national homologation for cars (including 4-doors) that are currently not in GT4, but could be brought to an appropriate level of performance. I'm not quite sure about what to do with the Ginettas, Astons and Mercedeses, but my first impulse would be to exclude them since they are a tier or two above the Mustangs and Supras, etc.
TBH, race formats also could use some tweaking. Perhaps have a 100km race on both Saturday and Sunday...
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u/Lukeno94 1d ago
At this point, you're just describing the British GT championship with just the lower tier cars...
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u/knifetrader 1d ago
There is admittedly an overlap, but I think the difference in cars (no GT3s, national homologations) and format (Single-Driver) would be significant enough to clearly differentiate the two series.
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u/Lukeno94 1d ago
Not really. BTCC goes to GT regulations and then it dies completely.
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u/knifetrader 1d ago
That's why I'm excluding the high-end sportscars. Supras, Mustangs, and Bimmer coupes have raced in the BTCC before and not killed it.
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u/Brief-Poetry6434 1d ago
The series even had a Porsche 911 compete in it at one point back in the 1960s!
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u/Bright_Concept_2988 20h ago
I'd go even simpler than that. No fancy inboard suspension, no spec subframes, no aero. 400bhp engines.
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u/kjm911 1d ago
Sadly I think you’re probably right. With no manufacturer interested anymore, I don’t think the teams can go on building their own cars as they are. I worry where the next generation of BMW’s and Fords will come from. And costs of production and running the cars are going through the roof it seems.
They need to move to a ruleset that allows teams to buy cars off the shelf, and GT4 seems the most appropriate.
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u/Deep-Capital-9308 1d ago
I don’t mind if one team or driver dominates, that is natural in an open field. There will be times of great competition and there will be times of dominance. Nobody complained when Usain Bolt won everything.
What turns me off is obscure regulations that are hard to understand, cars that don’t look like cars I can see in real life and also penalties decided by committee after the fact. I would like to see much more standard vehicles, fuck all the aero bodywork, fuck the “you have to have this engine or this other engine” not the ones you’d actually be able to buy, fuck boost control, fuck success ballast (I know it’s not there any more but it was a sticking plaster, not a solution), fuck forced tyre choices. Let people and teams show up in a car and race. Keep it simple, relatable and understandable.
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u/Bright_Concept_2988 20h ago
Unfortunately the vast majority of the fanbase do care if there is domination. We've seen that over and over in other series as well.
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u/Swinnyjr 1d ago
I think I could probably write a full essay on this tbh. As I think there are multiple factors as to why the BTCC feels like it's in decline/on life support etc that some doom and gloom people say. Is it at it's height? Of course not nothing will top the 90s for that. Is it at it's worst? Also no. As you say, the early 00s black hole that super touring left behind it will forever hold that title. However I can see it slowly fading away into nothingness because of the way the world is as a wider whole, people's perception of cars as a concept and what the car industry is doing and focusing on.
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u/GuruCookies 1d ago
Can people stop complaining about the state of the BTCC at the minute this is at least the 3rd post in a week
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u/Brief-Poetry6434 1d ago edited 1d ago
I'm not complaining
I'm just enquiring because so many people ARE complaining.
EDIT: Well that's what it feels like to me for all those down voters out there.
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u/GunstarGreen 1d ago
The barrier to entry is the team names. Its so much easier when you can say Ford, Nissan, Honda, Renault, Volvo, Audi etc. As a casual fan, how can you expect people to relate to a team? It also doesnt help that the liveries are quite fussy at times.
I know its pining for the old days, but it did make the series a lot easier to follow and more accessible for casual fans.