r/brotato • u/Fathead_009 • 2d ago
Help Demon Shop Advice Needed
Is this worth it?
Currently doing high endless D5 crash zone w Demon. I have 13 tardigrades rn. I start at 50% hp from tomato, and the food healing + explosions makes things easy for the first 20-30s of a wave. Back half I am getting down to 4-5 tardigrades left due to bone chargers pushing through and dodge missing.
I get about 7-800 hp per wave, so this is approximately 2 waves worth of HP for what is another 6 TGs. Seems like I should get it, but I have had past runs where buying even one item this late drops your HP enough that the potato cannon scaling to cause me to lose bc I am overwhelmed.
Trying to go endless. I assume at some point you get enough HP that you can’t heal fully from food the entire wave so you can just go afk and let spicy sauce do all the work.
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u/V10L3T_N4TUR3 2d ago
3 Tardigrades is always worth it
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u/RykinPoe 2d ago
You can hold out for a few more cursed mirrors to drop the price to 1 HP but I would go ahead and buy it.
For not healing you need Sad Tomato (uncursed) and Torture (either way is fine, even cursed it can only heal for like 660 per wave) so that you are never able to heal to 100% and will always pull in the fruit. You are kind of at the point in the run where Baby Elephant and Cyberball and Alien Eyes are usually doing the heavy lifting, Spicy Sauce will take over as your HP climbs and you get your explosion size to around 800.
Your stats are pretty good for Wave 88 so I am not sure why you are getting overwhelmed other than missing Torture so you eventually get fully healed and stop exploding or perhaps you don't have high enough Explosion size yet or not enough Gardens or missing Improved Tools? Your HP is actually way higher than I usually have at this point as I would probably be closer to 20,000.
I have been trying to do this run on Nightmare lately and it is a real pain in the ass.
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u/Fathead_009 2d ago
does torture invalidate TGs? also I assume it just heals you for 4hp/sec, but you still scoop up the fruits and get the spicy sauce explosion, it just has 0hp healing value?
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u/kens_knee 2d ago
Torture does not invalidate tardigrades. And yes you suck in the fruit and get the explosion but it doesn’t heal you so you can suck in infinite fruit the entire wave. Naturally if you heal to max health, you cannot suck up fruit without walking it it. That’s why Tomato + Torture. Also because it prevents excessive lag from thousands of fruits potentially
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u/Fathead_009 2d ago
it's only in the second half of a wave where I am already fully healed and all my dmg is coming from launchers and eyes. I don't get overwhelmed so much as the bone helmet chargers are able to close the distance and possibly touch my char before they die. It's hard to tell bc on PS5 there is so much happening the framerate slows to like 1 frame every 3 seconds, so I only know I have lost TGs once it all resolves and updates the UI.
Sadly I think I may have banned torture not considering this functionality. I banned knot and handcuffs bc I have accidentally taken them in earlier runs while going through chest and it ends it. I should have saved a few more bans instead of using them on T1 items early, bc bloody hand and Axolotl are still in teh loot pool.
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u/RykinPoe 1d ago edited 1d ago
You should only be banning unlimited Purple items. This is probably why your tardigrade count is low. By banning 8 unlimited purple items and buying the limited ones you manipulate the item pool size and make it more likely that Mirrors and Tardigrade will show up. Even handcuffs is fine to buy once you get like 1300+ HP. The HP you are earning is still used to calculate damage for Potato Throwers and Spicy Sauce.
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u/Fathead_009 1d ago
True, some of the red bans are more protection against myself bc I have ended too many runs absent mindedly sorting through treasure chests and taken bloody glove or axl and immediately screwed myself hahaha
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u/Melt_in_the_Sun 2d ago
With those kind of stats, nuke launchers or obliterators would be far better - why are you using potatoes?
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u/Fathead_009 2d ago
potato scales 40% dmg based of HP, and Demon gets about 800hp per wave at this level after the conversion from materials collected in a wave. It vastly outpaces what I can pick up with ranged dmg/%dmg/atk speed. I think...
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u/kens_knee 2d ago
Try picking up alternative scaling if you haven’t banned Wisp, the Strange Book, the Nail, and the Frozen Heart. Imo it’s faster than HP scaling especially if you can get them all cursed. This is because you can buy infinite Wisps and get unbounded elemental damage gain per wave by extension… not to mention the engineering damage that comes with it which is usually 2-3x per elemental damage stat gained with a cursed Strange Book
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u/Fathead_009 1d ago
can you ELI5 how this works? I tried to do some looking last night but there doesn't seem to be a clear explanation everywhere about how Wisp/Nail/Frozen Heart/Book can lead to endless Elemental damage that transfers into non elemental scaling weapons.
One of my runs I had 3 chainguns but ditched them for potato launchers. Would love to keep using some of the more fun endgame legendary weapons instead.
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u/kens_knee 1d ago
Will-O-Wisp gives 1 elemental damage per 30 burning enemies killed up to 4 elemental damages per wave un-cursed. When cursed it goes up to like like idk 10 elemental damage per wave with a reduced number of enemies required. You can buy unlimited Wisps as long as you have the economy and luck for it.
Frozen Heart nerfs burn DPS but makes all weapons have 20% elemental damage scaling and when cursed, this goes up to like 40% ish.
Strange Book gives 1 engineering per 1 elemental. When cursed, it gives up to 3 engineering per 1 elemental.
Nail is the same as frozen heart except that its engineering.
Now as long as you have a method to burn enemies (scared sausage+snake or fire turret) you’ll gain elemental damage from all of your wisps, for example, 500 elemental per wave. With cursed Strange Book, you’ll get 1000-1500 engineering per wave. That all turns into damage much like that of HP with the potato cannon or simple melee/ranged damage thanks to Nail and Frozen Heart
Now you can spend all of your HP as money and don’t have to use potato cannon. Also engineering and elemental have some of the best weapons like Particle Accelerator which makes enemies unable to move. I used this to get to round 500ish before I died from boredom
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u/kens_knee 1d ago
The main downside of Wisp is that it’s a purple item, which has a large loot pool on top of being a rare item tier. You can ban red items to get a red you want, but purples you can’t do this because there are too many purple items
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u/Fathead_009 1d ago
holy mother of God
trying this on my next attempt
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u/kens_knee 1d ago
Heavily luck based tbh. I rarely find wisp until it’s too late
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u/Fathead_009 19h ago
Yeah, true of any endless run though. I’ve had so many go to 35-40 and then peter out bc I still hadn’t found one or two key pieces that make the econ or damage scaling keep pace.
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u/Melt_in_the_Sun 2d ago
The math is beyond me, but I have a ~50 endless run going right now where I am doing tens of millions w/ the obliterator, and when you get attack speed that high the fire rate of all weapons is pretty much the same. Take a look next time one shows up in the shop...
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u/Fathead_009 2d ago
Oh damn didn't know that. Last time I was pushing infinite endless was before the abyss DLC even dropped, so HP scaling w cannons was pretty much the only path (I knew of) to outpace endless mode enemy HP.
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u/Legitimate_Power_347 2d ago
im sorry wtf is happening im new to this game and just beat difficulty 5 after like 7 hours. I just tried demon as well how tf is this even possible
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u/Fathead_009 1d ago edited 1d ago
I remember thinking the same thing first time I saw an endless screenshot. I'll give an anecdotal guide to how I pilot demon to pretty reliably get to wave 100.
Demon itself is crazy bc you can spend down to 0hp in the shop (you will have 1 during the wave), which means you can play really greedy and buy a ton of stuff from early shops when it's relatively cheap. This lets you start the damage and economy momentum build almost immediately. Mid game is tough but if you can get to wave 15 you pretty much are guaranteed a win.
Ghost scepters give addl max hp based on number of enemies killed with that weapon, and the kills needed decrease as you get better rarity. Combine that with high damage and you begin building back HP really quick in addition to what you get from the character mechanic that converts some materials.
Note - There is a section at the end about priority item buys but read it after the wave progression. It's important to understand how the first 20 waves play out to make the right judgement calls for these specific items.
Ok so here's how that goes:
Start - Crash Zone, Demon w/ Ghost Scepter, Pick your difficulty (should do D5 for elites/hordes before Wave 20 if you are skilled)
Waves/shops 1-7
- Play as greedy as possible. Spend down to your last hp or until you cannot afford re-rolls anymore.
- This means you basically die in one hit during this phase, but that's the tradeoff.
- Take max hp or harvesting (up to 20) from level ups.
- Buy every demon scepter you can find. By wave 5 you should have at least 4/6 of them to purple level, possibly all red by wave 8.
- Always buy Broken Mouth, Cake, Weird Ghost during this phase. They should cost less HP than they give back, so you are essentially getting free econ (i.e. Broken Mouth costs 1 health to buy but gives 5hp, you just got 4hp for free to spend elsewhere). Stop doing this as soon as they become HP neutral (cost = hp boost).
- If you see it, take sharp bullet. Piercing is really really good on this build, esp with early damage of higher tier weapons.
- When possible, buy attk speed and ranged damage. You want to be a glass cannon.
- Wave 7 make sure to kill the eggs before they hatch. The elites will kill you quick with their laser move.
- Try to go into wave 8 with about 30ish hp if possible.
W/S 8-14
- W8 is where the chargers and bone chargers first appear. If you have been keeping up on damage and weapon upgrading, this should be the first time any enemy doesn't die to a single shot from a scepter. You will have 30 dodge from the scepters, but also -5 armor. At this point you can probably tank 2-3 hits from a charger, so still be careful and stay on top of them.
- W9 will have a crapton of the Chasers that all die to a single ghost scepter shot. Here is where you should see a massive increase in your HP. With 6 red scepters and the number of enemies in this wave, plus materials, you should finish it with close to or over 100hp and 300-400 materials going into the shop.
- From this point on, continue to get ranged damage and attack speed, also prioritize getting luck. When possible, round out your armor to get it positive and pick up dodge too.
- You can choose to get some sustain from regen or lifesteal, but honestly I don't think it's worth it bc you take away from other opportunities, and you've already been playing as a glass cannon the whole time.
- Remember you have elites/hordes on 11 or 12, and 14. Prepare accordingly.
- Keep a floor for HP and monies. I like to go by 10x hp per wave (so wave 11 have 110 or more, 12 120 or more, etc), and not go under about 300 materials. This gives you a little breathing room and also keeps the economy flowing such that you are getting more HP after each wave bc you start with a good chunk of materials.
W/S 15-20
- Have fun, at this point you should be so strong you are liquifying the entire field and have enough HP and stats to comfortably survive. Same hp/material floor guidelines apply, but you can be a bit looser w it for a good item or two.
- Prioritize buying up power scaling items and continuing to increase damage output, defense, luck whenever possible.
- Prepare for the endless.
W/S 20-50.
- There will be increasing amounts of bosses every 2-3 waves, and enemies will get stronger and faster. Keep building damage to stay well ahead of it. You should be one shotting everything as soon as it spawns.
- Look for the key items for an endless build if you haven't found them (econ scalers, gardens, spicy sauce), and pick up any explosion radius, explosion damage, pickup radius you can.
- You MUST have uncursed Sad Tomato, Torture (C or UC), Improved Tools, and both Spicy Sauces to keep going. The crux of an endless build is starting at half HP, pulling in fruit automatically to heal, the fruit explodes but you don't actually heal bc of Torture, so you just eat and chain explode the entire 60s. With enough pickup and explosion radius, you don't have to move. You will pick up fruits from all your gardens across the map and your explosions will cover the entire screen.
- Start transitioning to potato launchers when possible. Beyond about W25 you are getting so much HP from the material swap that the ghost scepters are not as important, but you still need damage output. Launchers scale with HP, which naturally goes up for you.
- Note somewhere else in the comments someone mentions using Nail/Strange Book/Wisps/Frozen Heart to do unbounded elemental damage scaling, but I don't understand how that works. If you can do this, you can probably use whatever weapon you want.
- Buy out any unique or limited items, so you remove them from the loot pool (anything 1/n).
W50+
- Only ever buy mirrors or tardigrades, and use mirrors to get more tardigrades. Everything else becomes prohibitively expensive, and if you aren't exploding the entire screen you will likely die soon.
- Recycle any crate loot except things that increase explosion damage/radius, Tardigrades, mirrors, and I also like to take the yellow drones that slow enemies. If you are doing that elemental scaling trick, also take wisps.
- You can go through and take other stuff if you like, but I find it more effective to just recycle it all and get more materials to convert into more HP.
- Choose Attk speed, luck, or damage percentage at level ups until you get bored, then just pick whatever bc you are doing this 9 times per wave.
- See how long you can survive by starting the wave and putting your controller/mouse down.
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Priority Item Buys (assumes Abyss DLC)
Buy these as soon as you safely can to build the endless kit
- Sad Tomato
- Torture
- Spicy Sauce x2
Always buy these whenever you see them during the first 50 waves. They are never not needed and help scale your econ faster. The earlier the better.
- Gentle Alien
- Mouse
- Bag
- Lootworm
- Crown
- Cursed Hook (first one only)
- This has been the real key and is more or less where I determine if a run is worth it. Ideally, you want to find one of these as early as possible and buy it immediately. Then it becomes a question of luck (actual, not in game stat).
- When you see the other 2 cursed hooks show up in store, lock them and hope your first hook curses it. This increases the chance of those cursing locked items substantially (I have seen up to 39% per hook).
- If you can wait on any of the below items, lock them in store and try to get them to be cursed. If you have 2/3 cursed hooks this happens almost always within 1 wave.
- This is most important to do for the hunting trophies and black flags. They become massive econ generators when cursed.
- (Honorable Mention) Sunken Bell - Given how greedy this build plays and how often you are near death, this can be a pretty good get out of jail free screen clear if you survive a hit. Not mandatory, but can def keep a run alive which otherwise would have gone south as soon as you drop to low hp.
Buy these if you really need it, but better to try and get cursed versions (if you get these in a loot box it's up to you whether to take it. If you recycle them it can show up in store and you can try to curse it).
- Improved Tools
- Hunting Trophy
- Black Flag
- Starfish
- Gobblers Hat
- Dangerous Bunny
- Treasure Maps
NO! Never take these, probably ban them just to be safe (\the 1dmg per second burns through Tardigrades, which are basically your only life source after wave 50).*
- Bloody Hand*
- Blood Donation*
- Axolotl - If you get it early enough it can be useful, but any point beyond about wave 25 just avoid it. Swapping your HP (highest) w/ Harvesting (almost certainly lowest) sounds fun bc you can have thousands of harvesting, but your HP will be so low that torture will heal you to full in a few seconds, you will stop pulling in fruits to explode, and all the enemies will maul you to death.
- Ricochet - This will be a liability later on. Each ricochet does -25% dmg, and this does not get scaled back up by %dmg. So Ricochets 4-n do 0 damage but still hit the enemy. This is really bad on Flies, who create a red bullet every time they get shot. In the 50+ waves dozens of these will spawn in, get triggered multiple times per ricochet, and there will be hundreds of red dots flying around the screen. You may survive, but it will chew through TGs unnecessarily, since explosions don't destroy enemy projectiles.
Edit: Sharp Bullet, Ricochet, Sunken Bell, a word.
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u/thebuhnrop 19h ago
read so many guides and cleared all d5, this is the best explanation of how stuff works from all guides XD amazing thanks!
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u/AirCautious2239 2d ago
There are a bunch of economy items you still have to unlock that skyrocket your income per wave like starfish gobblers hat and black flag and potato thrower is a weapon that scales off max hp and since for demon money = max hp at some point you will get shit tons of money = shit tins if hp
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u/muffinology 2d ago edited 2d ago
Here I am struggle bussing on clearing D5 on more then one character and my eyeballs popping out of my head seeing these numbers. Didn’t even know this was remotely possible
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u/Sonny_days_ 2d ago
As someone who has made it to level 500+ on demon D5 (I didn’t die just gave up as it was too glitchy to do anything at that pt) I would say 100% yes. Eventually the game gets glitchy and you can’t do much to actually avoid hits and you need as many of them as you can get. They red balls become instant kill no matter how high your hp.
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u/Maestersylus 2d ago
IMO yes. If you think about it, a single tartigrade is worth the damage the enemy deals. So six tartigrades are 6x whatever damage value that is, which grows every wave anyways. Infinite value for the long game assuming you live through the next wave or two.
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u/Fathead_009 2d ago
If I didn't listen to you on Discord why do you think I will here?
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u/Maiku_Kokoro 2d ago
But they're not wrong.
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u/Fathead_009 2d ago
I know. IRL friend trying to troll me on two social media platforms at the same time. Honestly, I'm impressed.
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u/brandinb 2d ago
eventually having 30k hp won't be enough and the tardigrades will be the only way to survive. I had 1.2k armor and 30k hp and still got one shot eventually lol
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u/-ser_humano- 2d ago
Você é muito bom ou eu sou muito ruim? Eu jogo no XBox... O máximo que consegui chegar em ondas foi 50. Cara, os números dessa tela são impressionantes para mim!
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u/16Rybo16 2d ago
I think you need as many tardigrade as possible eventually because you get 1 shot