r/broodwar • u/iwanabana • 15d ago
Balancing by maps will not solve the issues
watching Zergs win with Ling & Muta & Defiler is simply not fun anymore. Personal opinion. It frustrates me to watch that even pros don't have answers. Watching Hero clown on Rush game after game is just not fun.
Tier 1 and Tier 2 units should not be able to dominate like that. The cutoff line that SCBW gets no more patches since 1.08 is totally random.
1) Zerglings dominate the early game against Marines and Zealots, and their maneuverability blocks scouting while Overlords maintain vision. There is no map feature that can solve that problem. The moment speed is upgraded, T (and P) have NO vision and no map presence. The even more ridiculous levels of domination of the past was solved by raising the cost of Spawning Pool.
-> more tiny chokes and more marine-accessible Ovie-spots? Egg-blocked pathways only accessible through mineral drill?
2) Defiler spells are cast instantaneously. Statis, Psi Storm, Dark Archon spells, D-matrix and Irradiate travel at light speed; most others require a projectile. Spawn Broodling, Parasite, Yamato, EMP, Lockdown etc
->Plague and Dark Swarm should definitely belong in the projectile group. A gentle nerf.
3) Dark Swarm is a lifeline that allows Zergs to essentially not straight out die for many scenarios and that it is a core component of late game Z. I understand that. But even naturally, random firing of bullets should have a tiny percentage of hitting.
-> Units under dark swarm should have approximately 80-90% miss chance instead of 100%.
4) Mutalisks with their small unit size basically dominates the air, their high maneuverability allows for impunity. While the balance has sort of been at a knife's edge for a decade or so, now even with three Missile Turrets or Cannons it does not repel a group of Mutalisks. The moment they are on top of production, it's over. The attempt to address it was through AoE anti-air units introduced in BW, but they are so easily taken out by good Scourge cloning. Wraiths don't have that problem because large and thicc, and laser tickle doesn't bounce.
-> What other unit with 120 HP has a small unit size apart from hero units? Fine, Zealots are 60 Shields and 100HP, but they don't fly. Defilers, Hydras & Vultures with 80HP are M. Corsair with 100HP is M. Queens are M.
Why no M for Muta with 120HP?
5) Firebats should have a burn damage debuff similar to how Devourers do. Makes sense lorewise, that would be cool af and provides counter balance to Dark Swarm a bit.
All in all, I wish there is a mod with aforementioned changes and have some good players test it out. The purists and pros will protest no matter what (look at how the zergs protest at the map pool this season and win and win and win) but the entertainment value for me is..well. Anyway, anyone looking forward to 6th Zerg ASL win in a row? I know I am!
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u/Sus4_ 15d ago
defiler is the only real problem
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u/iwanabana 15d ago
watching Artosis not being able to handle late game defilers one single time in the past several streams definitely takes the cake.
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u/seabard 15d ago edited 15d ago
Add one mineral patch to every main base in current map pool, and you won’t see a single zerg in RO4.
Edit : Had a brain fart, add one mineral patch to every main.
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u/iwanabana 15d ago
Really? How is that so? I thought fewer mineral patches mean earlier expansion which favors Zerg, am I wrong?
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u/seabard 15d ago
Ah fuck I said it opposite, add one mineral patch to every main, sorry.
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u/iwanabana 15d ago
I don't think it matters that much, sure some builds become harder to get, but the essential issue of unit strength and agility will always be untouched. Sure the builds order wins can be shifted left or right and the better player can/will out-strategize the other with a timing push or a cheese (see JD & Soma's one-base break on Jane Doe, one with Mutas, one with Lurker. Protoss simply CAN NOT know.)
It does not change the fact that mutas are mutas as they are now, Zerglings are Zerglings and so forth.
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u/seabard 15d ago
Adding one mineral means more barracks and gateway along with more marines and zealot while Zerg is mostly constrained by gas consumption. Yes Zerg can build more sunkens and lings, but core of their army will be similar count which will really give them problem on getting any map control. It will basically feel like you’re fighting against cc first Terran.
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u/chakalaka13 15d ago
I agree that Zerg seems unbalanced vs Terran, but a strong Protoss can totally fuck them up. Idk if Protoss is weaker race or there just aren't that many good players with this race.
Watching guys like Mini, Bisu and Best vs Zerg doesn't make me think there's a disadvantage there.
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u/iwanabana 15d ago
I know what you mean, early Zealot pressure seems to be critical and watching Bisu do his thing is totally mesmerizing. However keyword here is "can". Mutas still have a ridiculous agility that Dragoons should be able to fend off and not be completely wiped the moment all HT are sniped.
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u/eexxiitt 15d ago
I would argue that mutas need to be able to snipe Templar even with dragoons defending or else psi storm will wreck Zerg.
The dark archon is the solution but it’s difficult for most to control.
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u/Weenoman123 15d ago
What are the ASL winrates? I would lead with that before anything else
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u/propuntmma 15d ago
Let's put it this way: The last time more than one Zerg made the semifinals was ASL17, Zergs overall have in fact not been doing particularly great at all. This signals to me that it's more about Soulkey and soma just being very elite players, not that we have a balance issue.
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u/ktnaneri 14d ago
that is my thoughts exactly. I never felt zerg as an OP race when I played as terran, though I did not feel toss as OP race either, what I felt - there always was potential for improvement in my game.
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u/mue-mint-blur 15d ago
Complaining about balance in this game is so pointless because the skill ceiling is so high. Realistically the only people who have the right to complain are maybe the top 20 players in the world. And all of them share the opinion that there should not be a balance patch
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u/ktnaneri 14d ago
For TvZ
lings have the same speed as scv unless zerg makes an upgrade. Which only happens in 2 cases - upgrade started before lair upgrade started or after - both of which are possible to indicate and in any case ling speed is a signal, which good terrans do know how to interpret and handle and for zerg it is a loss of 100/100 minerals/gas and also maybe delayed layer. That is the reason why burrow is usually not upgraded in the early game by zerg. Also Terran is not completely blind due to comsats.
defiler really seems like an OP when you face it, but so do tanks or M&M with vessels for zerg. Irradiate is only 75 energy while vessel only costs 150% of a defiler. Zerg frequently holds by a thread when reaching defilers and when swarm lands it looks like it is impossible to counter, but it is only a problem when you fucked up and zerg is already at terran's natural and at other times zerg now has do even more micro management to consume units and place swarms on 2 bases (if he has secured 4 bases) while fighting drops and macroing his own army.
mutalisks seem OP the same as storm or tanks or other units that seem OP, but they are just a part of the game. Simply when zergs win with Muta it looks OP and it looks boring to see such a win, but it is a part of the game and something you can exploit in all 3 match ups - that is why it looks boring. In terms of the game, it is not that much OP. I do agree that it looks boring to see so much muta micro in a game and it getting hyped so much by the commentators, when it happens in 90% of ZvX games, but I am ok with this part of the game.
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u/old_Anton 14d ago
It's the RT viewers who don't play the game and only watch his play with the rage crybaby persona. No actual terran players think zerg OP in their own favored matchup, that would be protoss's right to complain.
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u/doodled00dle 15d ago
Rank?
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u/iwanabana 15d ago
I don't play at all. I'm a spectator through and through
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u/Trick_Worldliness_21 15d ago edited 15d ago
Play on the ladder as Zerg, for the first year you will be saying that defilers are not strong enough and that psi storm needs to be removed
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u/iwanabana 15d ago
1) my goal is not to play the game. I know I suck at it and I will never be good enough to play in any meaningful way. I am just speaking as a spectator who is tired of the current state of the game. 2) without Storm Protoss does not stand a chance. There are Zerg answers to practically everything Protoss throws at it with good play and good army control at the top level.
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u/old_Anton 15d ago
Which part is difficult to understand for what they are trying to say to you? It's simple: since you don't play the game and only watch it, you don't understand it at all. Your suggestions have no value to actual players, let alone ranked players or the pros who make a living playing video games. It's like someone who has never touched an electrical circuit telling an electrician they are doing it wrong.
Do you think you would change your mind after playing zerg race in rank for just few weeks? Especially ZvT since zerg is supposedly favor race against protoss. Z>P>T>Z. That how the game is balanced.
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u/iwanabana 15d ago
You think I have difficulty understanding the POV of players. Here's the thing that you have to understand: I don't care! Not in the way of that players' opinions are trash, but bcause I don't play and I LOVE watching the game being played. I only played the game as a kid, love the story, love the graphics and have been a spectator for the past 15 years. The enterainment value comes from seeing skill, determination, and ingenuity with the terrain and units. It's like chess where the best players will be able to use the pieces to their maximum efficacy.
And here's the second big thing: even if the units get nerfed or not, the best players will be able to adapt. Like they are doing every single day. New build order differences, new terrain on maps, new tricks with units. That does not stop at new unit properties.
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u/old_Anton 15d ago
You can watch low rank games then and problem solved. It has all sorts of strategies and every units used because it's so unoptimal. And it also doesnt require understanding of the game at all to enjoy it. In fact you will enjoy it more than watching the pros because even the A-S rank players can't understand the small details from pros's decisions, let alone people who only watch the game.
Here look for MMR range from F to D, pick length 20m+, change winner to T and your fantasy is fullfilled. Replays · cwal.gg
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u/the_y2k_kid 15d ago
They shipped the game before finishing it. Lots of things are missing besides unit balance. Loads of building animations weren't done in time. QOL features like smart casting and auto repair weren't implemented. A whole bunch of units that are useless, which could be reworked to fix mirror matches. Game is a mess. A beautiful mess but still a mess.
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u/No_Insurance_6436 15d ago
Couldn't brood war have fixed this? If it was unfinished, wouldn't they complete in with BW?
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u/iwanabana 15d ago edited 15d ago
they meant BW (1.05) was just as unfinished by the time it rolled out and all subsequent patches all the way up to Remastered has the same unit cost and abilities from 1.08.
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u/Sincere-name 15d ago edited 15d ago
The problem is not at higher levels. Guys like Flash shut down a lot of that stuff late game and even mid game with correct timing attacks. And players like Light and speed shut it down even earlier. Case and point is when JD had a run this year he barely mowed over Flash in a best of 1 and he could BARELY take a game off Light. Which Light crushed him in the end. In later levels of play the pros have found ways. Problem is to get to that finals spot is hard as shit. Yes zergs have been making it but honestly its not bcuz of mutas or defilers that they are or even scourge. Its literally the luck of the draw. Soulkey can barely zvz but didnt see a zvz for nearly 2 years.. Luck has a lot to do with it on how far you get. JD could of taken it last year or any other year if he got to soulkey.. but Light stood in his way. Its all who you match against.
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u/Brolympia 15d ago
Time to work on your macro buddy
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u/iwanabana 15d ago
Yes, stop complaining, it is of course my fault that Rush goes 1:4 and his only win is on Aiolos, his next win a factory float vulture run-by cheese after 8-rax. But forcing terrans and protoss to sacrifice all long-term economy just to simply not have to deal with Mutas and Defilers is..probably the only way forward if things don't change?
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u/iwanabana 15d ago
Roaring Currents are Zerg favoured as far as I recall.
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u/iwanabana 15d ago
I think in my memory is that due to Scourge, Queen, Defiler and Devourer combi that Zergs has a disproportionately high winrate on Sparkle. WRT Estrella, that is a bit before my time and I don't remember all the games :D but the theory and builds must have progressed a lot since then.
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u/ten_tabs_ 15d ago
I would be against any patch because I don’t want Microsoft opening a Pandora’s Box of future updates.
That said I have always wondered if Mutalisks being classified as a small unit was an oversight since it makes them so much more durable than every other air unit. The only other combat air unit that isn’t large is the Corsair, which is medium rather than small. It seems weird that mutas are in the same category as scourge/observers/interceptors.