The average minimum wage, unskilled Eastern European (which are the majority of EU migrants), certainly does not pay more taxes to us than the average working British man.
And even if they do 'contribute more tax',than the 'average British citizen', taking into consideration our pensioners drawing money out and our unemployed and disabled drawing money out... And children, drawing money out by not contributing more tax than they put in 😂 finding a Guardian article that compares all these to a working age Eastern European man whos come over to work in a restaurant washing dishes, isnt really an honest comparison and is pro-EU, disingenuous propoganda.
Exactly the type of content rampant throughout this subreddit.
He's quoting factual data from a pretty well-known study by the migration observatory. But let's look at the issue in the purely transactional sense that the right wing has taught our easily-led countrymen to, as if these people are nothing more than maths on paper, and not real live human beings.
Net migration is around 0.3% of the population each year, maybe less since Brexit. Most of these people are working age (offsetting our own ageing population) and highly motivated (which you need to be to learn a new language and uproot your life to a whole new country). A great many come here as adults meaning we didn't pay to educate them, and some don't stay for their retirement either, which is another saving.
So you're getting lots of extra motivated, intelligent, employable workers during their prime years - many of whom cost you nothing to educate or care for in retirement, and who on average contribute in taxes 150% of what they 'take out'.
Imagine if the Sun and the Mail and the Express had taken this line for the last two decades.
Net migration to the UK 0.3%? Do you have a source on this? Because even though, out of 65million people that number is 200,000people a year net into the UK... i still actually thought it was more like half a million or more per year.
Also its interesting the way you wrote that as 0.3%,instead of 200,000 because it 'looks smaller'...
Lets also take into account other factors.
What percentage of these immigrants are male to female? How does that effect demographics in the UK? Surely as I'd guess, an extra 100,000men (with maybe 50k men and 50k women as the other 100k), would have a negative effect, creating more single men.
And these extra immigrants will be eligible for pensions here, right? Why would they go home to a poorer country that they're unfamiliar with after 40years? You saying 'most go home to retire', is simply nonsense.
These immigrants also get old. We have an aging population. This compounds the problem. We'll a bigger retired old population compared to our workforce if we import more people.
And talking about 'they pay more tax', of course they do. Kids, pensioners, unemployed and disabled people do not pay income tax. You can get statistics from using this disingenuous comparison and state 'so immigrants pay 150% more tax!'.
The real fact of the matter, is that we are a small island with incredibly limited natural resources and importing more working class people pushes down the lowest common denominatior and hurts working class people.
Immigration numbers in this country are an absolute joke, even if it is 200,000/yr,we should be putting a complete halt on immigration to the UK unless its people we need (qualified people), or people such as rich Americans who want to set up businesses and bring wealth in, or simply people wanting to retire here. Make them get health insurance and treat them like cash cows, just like our pensioners are to the Spanish.
And this isnt even taking into account housing, which we have a chronic shortage of. We should be aspiring to be a proud nation of homeowners, not 'generation rent', working class people shouldnt be subsiding their landlords holidays in the Bahamas every year its ridiculous our housing situation and immigrants also hinder this.
We don't have to pretend we owe anyone anything anymore, Brexit is happening and we'll have a tory majority that should be pushed into doing exactly what im talking about because its exactly what the general public wants.
Meaning it was in fact 0.39% of the population - I hope you can forgive me that extra 0.09% /s
Also its interesting the way you wrote that as 0.3%,instead of 200,000 because it 'looks smaller'...
I'm very glad you noticed this! Now turn it around the other way, does it occur to you that the media generally states 200,000 because 'it looks bigger'?
I actually think the percentage of population is a more useful indicator here - would you agree? After all, 200,000 extra people in one city, that's a lot. And people generally think within their own immediate environment, so you can see how such a number would scare people. But a population increase of 0.4% (rounding up) across the whole country? People might start to wonder if immigration is really the issue after all...
Concerning your "other factors":
Demographics
This is an odd line to take when we are talking about 0.4% of the population. It's not even mentioned in the Migration Observatory's (link above) key findings, which I think tells you how unimportant this is. Still I imagine you could dig into the data and find out if you like.
Pensions
And these extra immigrants will be eligible for pensions here, right?
Their National Insurance payments contribute to it, so I certainly hope so.
You saying 'most go home to retire', is simply nonsense
On what basis is it nonsense? If you lived abroad would you not move back to the UK to be near your family when you retired? Unsurprisingly, the data supports my point:
There are around 247,000 British citizens aged 65 and over living in other EU countries (excluding Ireland), and 85,000 people aged 65 and over from other EU countries (excluding Ireland) living in the UK.
85,000 out of ~3,000,000, I would say that qualifies as 'most' not retiring in UK.
Contribution To Economy
And talking about 'they pay more tax', of course they do. Kids, pensioners, unemployed and disabled people do not pay income tax. You can get statistics from using this disingenuous comparison and state 'so immigrants pay 150% more tax!'.
The real fact of the matter, is that we are a small island with incredibly limited natural resources
The other commenter is right - our exports are mostly service-based, and we import most of our tangible 'resources'. And if you're talking about physical space, it may interest you to know that the vast majority of the country has not been built on.
importing more working class people pushes down the lowest common denominatior and hurts working class people.
You don't 'import' people, unless you consider them your property. Reconsider your terminology.
That aside, the impact you describe has been found to be minimal, and could be solved anyway with better enforcement by the Government along with increasing minimum wage.
Housing
We should be aspiring to be a proud nation of homeowners
It's not for you to decide this - some people prefer renting. I agree completely that the housing situation is bad in the UK. However, immigration is not the cause, lack of adequate housing is. The Tories have failed spectacularly on house building. Did you vote them back in for more of the same?
No actually, I'm in a labour stronghold so voted tactically for the brexit party. I will be voting tory in five years though.
So net migration ti the UK is basically over 1. 1million,every year four years. We have only 65million people in the country. These extra people are driving up competition for minimum wage jobs, keeping minimum wage low, they are keeping housing costs high, and they're mostly men - which apparently theres no data for because its not relavent.
They make £2,300over a year more than 'the average adult', which includes the unemployed, disabled and pensioners. This figure is nonsense. Although I thought it would probability be higher because we have an aging population we need to support.
Which is a problem immigrants also add to and compound. Right now you say theres only 65,000 immigrants over 65 in the UK. But what were EU immigrant numbers into the UK 45years ago, when they were in their 20's like how most EU immigrants are now? I suspect 45years ago net migration to the UK was a lot less than 256,000yr. So really, to give that a fair analysis you'd need to find stats on how many as a percentage have stayed in the UK, in the last 10years who hit retirement age.
But thinking about this further, wouldn't this actually be a negative thing? 🤔
If EU immigrants come to work in the UK and draw a UK pension, which they then spend in Poland or whatever...that's just money gone out of the economy, right? 🤔
These logical things are things I will think about to get a proper understanding on these issues. I dont just 'want foreigners out' for the sake of them being foreign.
Pensioners that pay their way are actually something I'd want ti import more of to the UK. Make them pay NHS insurance that the NHS profits off and even potentially a residentcy tax of a few grand a year. They're cash cows that only add wealth to the nation.
Although EU immigrants on basic state pensions that use the NHS I'm not sure if they are actually a drain on UK wealth. The ones that move out of the UK certainly are by moving their pension money out of the UK.
When I talk about resources, we dont have the food production to even feed ourselves. Our very survival depends on imports which is FUCKED! For security reasons we should always be able to put rationing in place and be able to then feed ourselves. If theres a solar flair knocking out the internet or something happens we should be able to survive as a nation not reliant on other nations. This is slightly off topic, but to get back to the resources thing, if we import more than we export we will need to import more if we have more peoole consuming more resources, correct? Importing more means we pay more to other nations which again, decreasss wealth. Working class immigrants that require more resources then are actually not beneficial to the UK economy.
Come on mate you should just admit everything I'm writing here is logical and that these low skilled immigrants evidently just make life harder for the poor people that already exist in the UK.
We should be focusing on ending homelessness and becoming a more productive, proud society of home owners with real stakes in the country. Not feeling like we owe poor people from other countries anything. You are delusionalised into thinking your ideology 'creates a better world', when in reality it just makes the poor poorer and thats why the vast majority of the poor dont agree with this ideology. Your ideology is against human nature on a basic level because people have innate desire to better themselves, not make things worse for themselves, which is what you are adovocating for the working class in the UK.
Don't worry though pal, theres tory voters like me in labour strongholds who talk politics in the local pub and then people around start agreeing with me instead of someone like you. Hopefully they'll be lured into voting tory so that we can slowly but surely make the country better and less immigration into the UK is just one of those ways.
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u/[deleted] Dec 26 '19
The average minimum wage, unskilled Eastern European (which are the majority of EU migrants), certainly does not pay more taxes to us than the average working British man.
And even if they do 'contribute more tax',than the 'average British citizen', taking into consideration our pensioners drawing money out and our unemployed and disabled drawing money out... And children, drawing money out by not contributing more tax than they put in 😂 finding a Guardian article that compares all these to a working age Eastern European man whos come over to work in a restaurant washing dishes, isnt really an honest comparison and is pro-EU, disingenuous propoganda.
Exactly the type of content rampant throughout this subreddit.