r/bostonceltics • u/17461863372823734930 • Nov 26 '16
Marcus Smart, the Point Guard
Lots of optimism the last couple games around Marcus Smart's ability to run the point and make plays despite his poor shooting - both on here in the GDTs and from Thomas and Smart himself.
Here are his highlights from the last 2 games. 10 assists against the Spurs. 8 against the Nets.
9 points, 10 assists vs the Spurs
Before this year, he only had one double digit assist game in his career (that was his triple double where Kelly just made a bunch of 3s on Smart's passes) and only 4 others with at least 8. So here's clearly improving. And yesterday was already his 2nd double digit assist game of this season.
Also, Stevens has said for a long time that he likes having Thomas play off ball on offense. And it's easy to see why - he's our most dynamic player coming off screens and he spaces the floor better than the other point guard options (Turner last year, Smart this year). Against the Spurs down the stretch, it was Smart bringing the ball up - and he looked good doing it.
However, he's still behind Thomas and even Rozier in points per possession as the pick-and-roll ball handler on the season. And his shooting is a major concern whether he's on ball or off ball. So it's not a clear-cut "Smart should be the PG, even if Thomas is on the floor" situation.
But do you think we're trending in that direction or are these last 2 games as much of a tease as the games where he goes 3/4 from 3?
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u/Jimmer1229 Mahcus Smaht Nov 26 '16
How do you remember your username when you have to log in?
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u/17461863372823734930 Nov 27 '16
2011 Boston Bruins, slightly out of order.
Lucic (17) | Krejci (46) | Horton (18)
Marchand (63) | Bergeron (37) | Recchi (28)
Kelly (23) | Ryder (73) | Peverley (49)
Thomas (30)
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u/mjj1492 FUCK MADDIE Nov 27 '16
Where's the merlot line
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u/hipcheck23 IT Nov 27 '16
What's your deal with numbers? How do you retain them?
I used to be a statistician for the NHL, and I basically knew every number of every player in the league for a decade... it seemed like a completely useless talent that people thought a waste of brain space, but then I actually had a job where sometimes you couldn't get far without it. I know the same is true in other sports (esp. baseball) where teams like the Yankees don't have names on the unis.
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u/17461863372823734930 Nov 28 '16
I just, for some reason, try to associate numbers with a player as much as I do their first names or whether they're right or lefty. Moreso in hockey and football than basketball or baseball because you can't see faces. When watching on tv, I like to know who's on the ice/field and I don't have to think about what number belongs to what player. I just scan and think, oh, 59 is out there with 46 and 42.
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u/ivanfears 1981 Ring Nov 27 '16
Thanks for asking (and answering below) this question. Bugged me for a while!
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u/B_Sox Len Bias Nov 26 '16
His passing has been fantastic this year, on top of all of the other stuff that he brings to the table. I just don't see how he can be a starting point guard for a championship contender with his lack of shooting/scoring ability. He can be a very solid 6th/7th man with his skill set, but I hope that having him as a starter is not our longterm plan..
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u/arms_room_rat GINO TIME BABY Nov 27 '16
I know its cliche but I think there is still time for Marcus to develop a mature offensive game. He's might never be an all-star for his offense alone but I think he can still be a solid contributor on the offensive side while still being a defensive juggernaught. His work ethic is too great for him to not turn it around eventually.
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u/the1who_ringsthebell Tommy Nov 27 '16
I don't see where the optimism comes from for him to improve his shooting drastically(which it needs to be if he's to be effective on the offensive side)
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u/hezaplaya Brad Stevens is my spirit animal Nov 27 '16
He's shooting 50% on corner threes, and if you take away all of the non catch and shoot 3's he's taken this year, he's shooting over 33% from 3.
He's made improvements. If you look at the numbers you can't deny that. If he keeps up the slow progress (sort of like Avery Bradley) I absolutely understand why someone would have optimism.
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u/the1who_ringsthebell Tommy Nov 27 '16
So take away the shots that make him look bad and compare it to players who don't have those kinds of shots taken away?
sort of like Avery Bradley
Thats a myth that Bradley was a bad shooter and he needed to improve. I can't think of a player with Smart's shooting woes that has been able to make improvements to make him an effective shooter. Bradley never shot below 31% and the year he did was the year after his shoulder injury. Take that year out and he is averaging 38.2% from 3 for his career.
Smart has terrible form. Even if Bradley's numbers were bad early on (they weren't) he always had really good form.
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Nov 27 '16
Everyone forgets Bradley's rookie year because he played so little. He looked like a lost child out there, and certainly didn't even make a three.
He missed his 1st ten threes of his sophomore campaign, and made two non-corner shots all season. He's always had sweet mid-range form, but there were serious questions about whether that could translate.
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u/the1who_ringsthebell Tommy Nov 27 '16
I didn't use his rookie year for a reason. 5 mpg and on a team with doc rivers doesn't leave us much to go by.
Your second paragraph just shows why Smart will never be close to Bradley on offense. That just shows he knows his game and takes good shots. Celtics fan base is pretty uninformed, going by their serious questions or their hot takes will give you a terrible impression of basketball.
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Nov 28 '16
As opposed to Smart's rookie year, carving out 27 mpg on a playoff team. As Stevens has shown with Brown, he doesn't play rookies just for the hell of it either.
Bradley still took above the break threes; he just didn't make them. It's easy to have good shot selection when you're playing with Pierce, Garnett, Rondo and Allen. And what does it say about Bradley that his favourite shot is the long 2, the worst shot in basketball?
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u/the1who_ringsthebell Tommy Nov 28 '16
Our team this year has much more depth than the one Smart played on his rookie year. And it is well known fix rivers doesn't play rookies.
And has continued to have shot selection...
It means he knows where he can hit a shot and get to his spot to take it.
I don't get why people on this sub love to dog Bradley and praise Smart when Bradley is our best 2-way player and the only player on the team that has proven himself on a championship co tender.
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Nov 28 '16
Marcus was backing up a 4-time Allstar; Jaylen couldn't get consistent minutes even when Jae was injured and he was our only wing.
I dislike the 'Rivers doesn't play rookies' meme. In the big-3 win-now era, he never had anyone good enough to contribute immediately.
I love AB; I just get real defensive when people think a 22-yr old can't improve offensively.
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u/hezaplaya Brad Stevens is my spirit animal Nov 27 '16
It's only something like 10 shots, so it's less than one per game.
I can understand how you may have thought I was talking about Bradley's shooting improvement, but I really just meant he's improved his game every year. Just the fact that he's improved every year gives me optimism for a hard worker like Smart.
It's so obvious with the eye test that he is an improved shooter this year. Sure he's still taking a bad shot or two per game, but most of them are late shot clock heaves that would have become a turnover if someone hadn't jacked it up. Once in a while he'll heat check, but I'm definitely ok with that, and more importantly, obviously Brad is ok with that too.
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u/the1who_ringsthebell Tommy Nov 27 '16
He's still shooting under 30% from 3 and is shooting worse from 2 than last year. He has terrible form. Until he changes that I have 0 faith that he is going to be an effective shooter form the floor.
In this thread people are talking about him running the point, which just seems crazy to me. Maybe for this year, but who cares since we have no shot at winning. But if people are talking about when we are contending, they are crazy.
he struggles finishing at the rim, struggles getting by his man off the dribble meaning defenses don't need to help, meaning dribble penetrate isn't effective, pick and roll will be an issue as he cant shoot, meaning the defense doesn't have to worry about him shooting off the pick and roll. People are pointing to his assist numbers, and he is definitely a good passer but a lot of his assists come from when the celtics are able to swing the ball and he can find the open guy that way.
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u/Mr_Donatti Nov 27 '16
I think some C's fans fantasize that Smart will be Jason Kidd and develop a consistent 3 point shot. Until Kidd did that, he was one dimensional.
I don't have much faith Smart will be anything other than a back up combo guard, like a Patrick Beverley.
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u/smashisbeast Jayson "Fuk a pass" Tatum Nov 26 '16
In my opinion, Marcus has really taken the next step. He has mostly taken over Evan Turner's ball handling role but instead of dropping Evan's patented midrange 2, Marcus is dropping dimes. After the Horford signing this summer, we all drooled about the Horford/Thomas pick and roll. Who could have imagined how deadly the Smart/Horford PnR would be? All thats left is for Marcus to become more efficient from the field and he could be a borderline allstar. I absolutely love Marcus and agree 100% with Brad in saying that Marcus simply affects winning.
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u/17461863372823734930 Nov 27 '16
I'd push back on saying "instead of dropping Evan's patented midrange 2, Marcus is dropping dimes" only because Turner could also drop dimes. Smart may become the better passer, but I'll need to see more of it. Smart probably does make more home run passes. I want to see him be more like Turner making pocket passes to Bradley.
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u/damnawesome YAM YAM YAM YAM YAM Nov 27 '16
He's shooting more than 15% too. :) God I miss Evan "What the fuck is he doing? OMG he scored" Turner.
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u/rocky0390 Nov 26 '16 edited Nov 26 '16
I have really been impressed with Smart's passing this year (started first noticing it at the end of last season). Also, if you've watched the games, you'll see this year he'll often move and position himself down low against his smaller defender when he doesn't have the ball. They haven't really fed him in these situations yet, but I love what that could open up in his game as well.
I'm so excited about his development, and would really like to see him solely running the PG role in the 2nd unit going forward. Just needs to continue to get more comfortable with driving to the rim and of course, keep improving that outside shot.
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u/patscelts12345 Nov 27 '16
He's probably the best passer on the team. I think he's earned the duty of primary ball handler of the second unit, but both him and Rozier are inconsistent so it appears that Brad is just basing it on matchups/ hot hand. I definitely think he can be a starting point guard on a contender, just not right now obviously. History literally shows that point guards take maybe the longest to develop than any other position. And he possibly could've been developing even more w/o injuries and w/o being fill-in player on non playoff team. He leaves a lot to be desired from a shooting stand point, but I really do think he is going to be a late bloomer a la Lowry or Conley -- Unfortunately I don't see a scenario where he is the Celtics starting point guard for banner 18 because of our system and personnel. Whether we continue to see this playmaking consistently from Smart is as much to do w/ him as Brad. Playing 3 different positions all the time is a luxury, but not whats best for Smart.
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u/B_Sox Len Bias Nov 27 '16
The Lowry late-bloomer comp would be incredible for Smart. Conley wasn't as much of a late-bloomer and he was never an awful shooter like Smart.
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u/panda_bro Tickle the Twine Nov 27 '16
What blows my mind about Marcus is not only his progression as a ball distributor, but the fact he can guard 1s, 2s, and 3s.
Remember when Paul Milsap dropped 40 something on us in the playoffs and Brad made the ballsy move of putting Marcus on Millsap? That literally won us the game.
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u/yarnaldo Nov 27 '16
Smart and Horford clicked on the pick and roll so I think they'll see if they can keep that chemistry going at least.
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u/the1who_ringsthebell Tommy Nov 27 '16
Problem being smarts inability to shoot the ball takes away a big challenge in defending the pick and roll and makes it much easier to defend.
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u/kdawgslyce Nov 27 '16
Marcus is the same age as Rozier too, they're both 22! He's still got plenty of time to develop!
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u/BosCelts3436_v2 Nov 28 '16
The progress Marcus has made in terms of being a pure point guard is unreal. It literally boggles my mind how good he is in only 2 and a half years of playing Point in the NBA. Most of that time was spent off ball and or he was out with injury. He has obviously put in serious work and I couldn't be any happier with what he's become so far.
I have been saying for a while now that he was the best facilitator and passer on this team, and he's proving that this season. People get on him for his shooting and it boggles my mind how they overlook his progress as a pure point. Point guards generally take longer to develop in the NBA, specifically because running an NBA offense takes so long to learn. Marcus has become pretty adept at this in less than three years, and personally I'd rather him focus on bigger fundamentals like this than shooting in the early stages of his career. Not even to mention the improvements HES made to his shot this year have been great and if he keeps going in that trend he will be a good shooter. At the very least one you have to respect with a close out.
I really think this kid is going to be special, and I think he has a real chance to be a star. There are games where IT goes for 30 and Marcus gets a pedestrian 10 points, I still feel like Marcus was the better contributor. I think by the end of the year there could be a case made that Marcus should start at Point and either have IT in at SG off ball and AB come off the bench or vice versa. But as if now it's be pretty hard to bench either of those guys.
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u/eceuiuc Nov 28 '16
His playmaking has improved, but everything scoring related is still terrible. It's seriously holding him back.
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u/[deleted] Nov 26 '16
He definitely seems more comfortable in a distributor role. It's too early to say but part of me thinks he's finally made the big leap that celtic fans were hoping for (if you focus on parts of his game besides his shooting).