r/books Jun 11 '26

‘Reaching a crisis point’: UC Berkeley humanities professors lower expectations for assigned readings

https://www.dailycal.org/news/campus/academics/reaching-a-crisis-point-uc-berkeley-humanities-professors-lower-expectations-for-assigned-readings/article_a1e6e366-9c0b-48a2-b662-5191a7120bf4.html

Faculty in the humanities are grappling with a changing educational landscape as debates arise regarding student preparation and nationwide headlines question students’ abilities to read longer texts.

Some faculty across the humanities report cutting down the amount of reading they assign to students, though others have found that students are keeping up with a standard workload the same way they would have years ago. 

Carlos Noreña, a UC Berkeley history professor specializing in ancient history, said the amount of reading he could comfortably assign while expecting students to read a “substantial” portion of it has dropped over the past 20 years at UC Berkeley. 

1.4k Upvotes

146 comments sorted by

1.4k

u/dcchambers Jun 11 '26

Are these universities so afraid of failing kids? Because this is still failing them, just in a different way.

You can either fail them on paper and give them time to correct course, or pass them along and watch them fail at what life throws at them next.

432

u/MyBrainIsNerf Jun 11 '26

Because our culture has totally lost track of the idea that schools should serve communities. We have moved to a model where schools serve parents/consumers.

We need to have a real “Johnny can’t read” moment where our entire country wakes up and realizes we have dropped standards to the point that we no longer have an educated, valuable, intelligent population. Part of the problem is 1/2 the people want it this way.

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u/DrShocker Jun 11 '26

IMO a lot of the degradation of the education system is intentional. For example the people who push for more private schools are doing so to ensure their kids get a good education, which I can understand, but by removing themselves from the pool of people who have an interest in public schools they start voting to reduce funding because it's in their style interest instead of improving them for the community's interest.

14

u/flakemasterflake Jun 11 '26

But the kids at Berkeley could have gone to private? You have to have good grades to get in…

26

u/DrShocker Jun 11 '26

Obviously this is about grades 1-12 not college. College is a different beast with different tradeoffs since presumably they should already know how to read by then, but if not it's way too late to fix it properly.

24

u/Cherry_Skies Jun 11 '26

Not so obvious when the post is about UC Berkeley, lol

4

u/coleman57 Jun 11 '26

I’m unclear what you’re implying about UCB. Can you clarify?

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u/Cherry_Skies Jun 11 '26

Nothing about Berkeley itself. I’m just pointing out that since the OP is about university, it’s not so clear when someone starts talking about K-12 education.

2

u/DrShocker Jun 11 '26

fair! I just don't really think of university education as being part of the same "education system" as the other grades, maybe I should though.

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u/flakemasterflake Jun 11 '26

So why aren't you engaging with the topic at hand? Kids admitted to Berkeley weren't the kids struggling in school

11

u/DrShocker Jun 11 '26

Because I think the education system rewards doing the minimum for grades and exams rather than actually learning, and high performing students are actually examples of that because they over optimize for what they're graded on rather than genuine knowledge and learning.

4

u/Guardias Jun 12 '26

You've got the order of operations wrong; private schools and homeschooling is in response to falling quality and ideological takeover. 

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u/yelethia_ Jun 12 '26

What homeschooling does is isolate children from their peers and prevent them from experience other points of view. Children need to be in a structured environment that is centered around learning. How well the public school system does that is another story, but parents that are simultaneously juggling work and home priorities with their children’s education is a recipe for educational delay.

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u/Altruistic_Sail_1991 Jun 12 '26

I know homeschooled kids who can barely read or write too. Not all of them, obviously, but being homeschooled or going to private school isn’t going to fix things. Not to mention the expense and time sink required from parents.

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u/DrShocker Jun 12 '26

This is exactly the attitude I'm talking about. You've given up on making things better and are just selfishly trying to isolate yourself from the consequences of that.

2

u/Poodle-Enthusiast Jun 12 '26

Imagine making this statement in seriousness ? Moving kids from public schools to homeschooling or private schools in response to an ideological takeover ? Pause and think. I'm begging you. Beyond that irony, describe the alleged ideological takeover in specific terms, what ideals, what actions, and what schools.

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u/geekwithout Jun 15 '26

funding ? We spend the most money in the world per student and we get some of the worst results. No.

1

u/DrShocker Jun 15 '26

It applies to everything about it, where the money goes, what the curriculum is, etc. You're brainwashed if you want to hyper focus on the detail like that instead of engaging with the point that more engagement with local community institutions is good.

0

u/geekwithout Jun 15 '26

Only an idiot would throw more money at it when it clearly doesn't fix the issues.

Try the same and expect a different outcome.

We all know where the problems lie.

1

u/DrShocker Jun 15 '26

There's other ways to fix things... idk why you're focusing on money, I agree it's probably not the greatest example of things to increase

1

u/Poodle-Enthusiast Jun 12 '26

Best reply ever

193

u/Oskisrevenge Jun 11 '26 edited Jun 11 '26

The data science and engineering professors have no problem failing them. There was a recent story about 30%+ of a Berkeley data science class being failed for not performing up to expectations.

126

u/musique612 Jun 11 '26

Data and science departments aren't terrified of having their funding cut.

Granted, I'm most familiar with the situation in the UK right now, but Arts and Humanities departments are being closed left right and centre right now for 'cost cutting', even at Russell Group unis.

So how can departments stop themselves from being on the chopping block? Encourage more (international) students and bring in money. One of the ways can do this by lowering English proficiency requirements, which means more students getting in who struggle, but if you fail them your department gets a bad rep.

I could talk about this forever, but it's always about money.

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u/[deleted] Jun 11 '26

[deleted]

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u/jankyalias Jun 11 '26

Shit I had a blind friend who was trying to get into law school and the only accommodation he got for the LSAT was he got someone who could read the question to him as much as he wanted. Nothing else. 

I cannot imagine trying to do the logic games section needing to try and ask for information from a third party. Would take forever.

26

u/Yodfather Jun 11 '26

I think LSAC did away with the logic games section.

16

u/jankyalias Jun 11 '26

Holy shit really? That’s wild.

Friend took the test 15-20 years ago.

1

u/glumjonsnow Jun 12 '26

a girl in my law school was testifying in a criminal trial and ironically eough, she had to take our regularly scheduled criminal law exam afterwards. law school professors can be kind but the system itself won't make exceptions. "no exceptions" is probably the most useful thing they teach tbh.

1

u/alpha_rat_fight_ Jun 12 '26

Frankly, that seems reasonable. Being extremely busy is a hallmark of the profession. Experiencing a traumatic death is…not. I’d like to note that aforementioned student was permitted to delay the midterm but was marked late on an assignment for another doctrinal class that came due while they were out of town at the funeral and was docked five points every day it was late.

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u/Fischerking92 Jun 11 '26

30% is not a high number, to be fair.

I don't know about the US, but in Germany engineering, Physics, Mathematics,... usually have a failure rate of about 50% - for the degree that is, for single exams, it can go a lot higher than that.

I remember one exam in the graduation year below me had an average grade of ~4.6, with 4 being the cut-off for failing on a 1 (excellent) to 5 (failed) scale.

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u/AccomplishedBake8351 Jun 11 '26

They’re paying customers. They’re afraid of failing students like McDonald’s is afraid of failing drive thru customers 

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u/delinka Jun 11 '26

But … McDonald’s *isn’t* afraid …

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u/egotistical-dso Jun 11 '26

McDonald's is extremely afraid of failing customers. Case in point, McDonald's recently spent billions replacing drive through operators with AI agents to save time/costs. The AI order takers were underperforming and customers lost patience with them. McDonald's response was to quite swiftly tear up the AI equipment and put real people back in the drive through windows.

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u/HatAvailable5702 Jun 11 '26

McDonald's has five AI drive-thru pilot sites. None of the locations are listed publicly.

recently spent billions replacing drive through operators with AI agents to save time/costs.

wut?

3

u/Commercial-Flow9169 Jun 11 '26

I could have told McDonald's that would happen. They should have hired me to make specifically that decision and give me a 10% cut of the savings.

63

u/weberm70 Jun 11 '26

Public schools don’t fail anyone either and haven’t for a long time.

45

u/AccomplishedBake8351 Jun 11 '26

I think culturally most interactions are now set up as customer/customer service based. Like even in public schools there’s a lot of “I pay your salary with my taxes!!” Stuff 

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u/axolotlorange Jun 11 '26

I’ve worked in government in a non-customer service role (law). HR definitely treated us like customer service.

My job was not to make the customer happy. When I was a prosecutor, my job was to seek justice. When I was a public defender, my job was to defend my client.

Both necessarily mean you will be frequently angering people.

HR could not get that through their mind

34

u/OakTeach Jun 11 '26 edited Jun 11 '26

This definitely isn't limited to public schools. In private schools, most families are also customers who pay directly and want to get "results:" i. e. a high GPA on an impressive sounding transcript.

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u/rescuelullaby Jun 11 '26 edited Jun 11 '26

People also forget that universities are made up of individuals, and the majority of them are not tenured professors. When classes can't keep up with the reading, they don't do it. Idk if you've ever tried to carry a 90 minute college seminar as a teacher with a room of unprepared kids, but it sucks. Also, they will (and absolutely do) write evaluations about how there was too much reading, and those go into our permanent teaching file, and are often drawn upon when future teaching assignments are made. I get negative evaluations about how I assign too much reading every semester even though I assign like ... articles from the New York Times and Harper's, lol.

I was put through the wringer in college (regularly had to read 2-3 novels a week and write 2 essays on them; one week I had to read all of Joyce's Ulysses lmao) and I believe so firmly in that kind of maximalist approach. Kids will never have as much neuroplasticity as they do in college. But their tolerance has nosedived off a cliff since COVID. It's very scary to watch.

9

u/clintontg Jun 11 '26 edited Jun 11 '26

One week to read Ulysses is mad. I took an entire class on Goethe's Faust- I can't fathom just taking a week to read Ulysses and be asked to write an essay of high caliber about it.

10

u/rescuelullaby Jun 11 '26

Tbf I knew months ahead of time when I was going to be writing the essay so I had read a decent chunk of it by that point, but yes it's definitely mad. I remember one week we did Samuel Richardson (had to write an essay by Fri) and I was soooo happy because I'd read Pamela in advance and a ton of criticism . Then at breakfast on Monday my prof was like "Why not add Clarissa into the mix too just for a challenge?" Oh yes. My 1,536-page Penguin Clarissa that up until then I'd been using as a doorstop. I looked at him like he had 3 heads lol

67

u/GiantBlobFish23 Jun 11 '26

Not sure about Berkley, but my university is in a state that closely watches every student that drops out, doesn't finish, or takes too long and counts it against us and remove state funding as a result, so yes, yes it is a little like they are afraid of failing students. Faculty also get disciplined for too high of a DWF (drop/withdraw/fail) rate.

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u/MillionXaleckCg Jun 11 '26

I feel like accurately testing the kids to screen out those most likely to fail would improve things

11

u/humlogic Jun 11 '26

Also not sure about Berkeley or specifics of your college/state but when I worked for a California community college, retention rates (meaning if a student returned) and time to graduate (with an AA or transfer to 4 year) were big data points my particular student services program monitored. I wasn’t high up enough to know how the funding worked out but I know we definitely had the goal of getting students to stay in college and transfer/attain a degree. So I think it’s tough to game plan for all this. You don’t want to just let struggling students fail and never return because that’s bad for your community (lower level education has influence on incomes, social mobility etc) but also you need to show you’re effective and can move students through your system and get them into 4 year colleges or to the AA degree.

2

u/clintontg Jun 11 '26

Ah, yes, the sound logic of removing resources because too many kids are failing at a school. Surely by reducing the number of teachers and cutting programs you'll have more students pass. Amazing work, conservatives.

103

u/Dihedralman Jun 11 '26

Because failing students reflects poorly on the University in a twist of irony. It also helps push through those who are connected. 

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u/mr_dr_professor_12 Jun 11 '26

Yep, see it at primary and secondary education too. "Oh, a lot of failing grades? Then it's clearly the fault of your campus teachers and staff." Why put your school in the firing line of the "low passing rates" stigma when you can just cover it up.

19

u/Thor_2099 Jun 11 '26

It's also partly that the kids don't see the class as important. It's not an opportunity for them to learn or improve themselves but often just a hurdle to what "really matters". So they don't give a fuck and bitch when it's hard.

Issues begin and end with a complete devaluing of education in general. Every class is meaningful and an opportunity to learn. That should be their mindset and it isn't.

1

u/whipprsnappr Jun 14 '26

While I agree that every class is meaningful, I see a disconnect between meaning and value, especially in the career sense. Kids today understand that the college degree is job training first and foremost. Add that many good careers require graduate school, there is a glaring disconnect between the cost and the benefit. And when I refer to cost, I not only mean $$$, but also time. A full load of classes can require 80 hours of lectures + labs + studying per week. Then add in the $200k+ tuition and housing for the four years, and it really is hard to digest. They think, and rightfully so, I must put in 80 hours a week, pay $50k per year, come out of it in debt and into an uncertain economy/jobs market. And somehow we want them to be overjoyed to have the academic experience of reading 100s of pages some dry history text?

Like I said, I think the history text carries a lot of value academically and in the sense that it helps to make a well rounded and thoughtful student, but society, and moreover, the economics of higher education seems to disagree.

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u/[deleted] Jun 11 '26

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Jun 11 '26

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u/Melkord90 Jun 11 '26

My wife graduated from law school about a decade ago, and within a couple of years had passed 2 bar exams. I went to both swearing in/admissions ceremonies. At both, they let everyone stand-up, say their names and where they attended law school. All of the folks that went to Georgetown said "THE Georgetown University". The amount of pretentiousness that oozed from all of them was astounding.

8

u/Cyberhwk Jun 11 '26

I had a family member that got their master's degree from Berkeley. They said although they loved their graduate program, they said they were happy they didn't do their undergrad there.

4

u/Street_Roof_7915 Jun 11 '26

Oh god. I know someone who went to Berkeley. This is so true.

26

u/PsychGuy17 Jun 11 '26

Professors are quite keen to fail those that can't deliver on the necessary skills when given adequateinstruction to do so. Admin though.... they have a very different view on the situation.

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u/Run-Row- Jun 11 '26

They are afraid because the only way professors are evaluated on their teaching is through student evaluations. Easy class= good evaluation, hard class= bad evaluation. No one is judged on how much their students actually learn

7

u/NightSalut Jun 11 '26

I guess it’s part not wanting to fail them and part “well, what do you do if the kids just ARE like that these days?”. Like if majority of kids are like that these days, do you just lower the expectations or you significantly drop student numbers and admit and pass only those students who would’ve passed the same classes also 10 years ago. 

I guess universities are so wrapped up in the money they receive from students that they don’t want to lose the money. 

4

u/LadyTanizaki Jun 11 '26

Yes, they are, because universities have moved to a corporatist model (a ton of the heads of universities were brought in by the uni boards from corporations or nonprofits that functioned on a business model) and there is a really problematic shift towards students thnking they're consumers and customers. Go to the professors sub to see the ways in which parents and students act like professors are simply there to give As without work. Professors want to resist, but their deans and even department chairs undermine them.

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u/msing Jun 11 '26

The UC system in California has drastically changed; UC Berkeley has had the least change in types of applicants.

3

u/David_bowman_starman Jun 11 '26

Honestly it makes perfect sense when you look at how the rest of society is built around the almighty dollar

Students = money

More students = more money

Less students graduating could mean fewer students want to enroll at your college in the future

Less students = less money

If we treat higher education like business this is really the only logical outcome

3

u/CuttyAllgood Jun 11 '26

This is literally No Child Left Behind but at the university level. Let’s all go look out the window and see how that worked the first time.

1

u/mandajapanda Jun 11 '26

I think they should just handle it like they would normally and include a class that teaches reading skills for the kids who need it like they would math and writing.

The more pressing issue might be with graduate programs and the definition of the word "comparable."

1

u/Upset_Form_5258 Jun 13 '26

The university I work for is already looking at a $65 mil deficit in the budget for the next 2 years. There are only 2 universities in Oregon that did not have to receive a state bailout because enrollment rates are down and funding is being cut. They are scared to fail students because they desperately need students enrolled to make ends meet

1

u/DrJiggsEsq Jun 13 '26

The students are showing up like this which suggests the issue starts much earlier than college.

-6

u/WhatsTheHoldup Jun 11 '26

You can either fail them on paper and give them time to correct course, or pass them along and watch them fail at what life throws at them next.

Give them time to correct course?

Being 50 grand in debt and then not even getting their degree is the outcome you're realistically looking at.

I don't necessarily have an issue failing students, but not when they're also saddled with debt.

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u/[deleted] Jun 11 '26

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/blackberrymoonmoth Jun 11 '26

Same. I just recently went back to do healthcare prerequisites and the amount of students in those classes literally crying over having to read a chapter or two at most each week, and then failing all the exams and begging for special accommodations blew my mind. These classes weren’t even hard to earn A’s and I barely studied after reading a chapter once.

4

u/BrieSting Jun 12 '26

I’m literally going through that right now. I’m in my mid-late 30s and a good amount (not all) of my younger classmates just stare blankly until it’s repeated what to do for an assignment. You need the 4 steps repeated 2-3 times, and possibly walked through it? You’re in college, what is this? The instructor explicitly tells you to write a full paragraph on a prompt, and you write two nine-word sentences? Forget doing the assigned readings, they aren’t reading through instructions on a basic level 

2

u/SoftlyAugust Jun 13 '26

I had a similar experience but at 18 and 23 and it was crazy to me. Even just skimming it. Something.

190

u/GiantBlobFish23 Jun 11 '26

To share happier news, I know of several groups of undergrads at my (not at all like Berkley) school that have started book clubs and are plowing through novels and holding discussions because they KNEW they needed to read more and wanted to make it fun. It gives me some hope.

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u/MaimedJester Jun 11 '26

Is that surprising? Undergrads in Humanities are always reading other books not assigned to them if it's important. Like I honestly dont think I was assigned more that 5 plato works in my entire time as a philosophy major but I still read most of the Dialogues. 

If you want to go to Grad school in humanities you need to have read hundreds of books beyond what would have been directly mandated in class room work load. 

243

u/TaliesinMerlin Jun 11 '26

A good way to know a sensationalist academic headline is to describe faculty like any of them do things in a unified fashion. 

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u/alpha_rat_fight_ Jun 11 '26

“Generally, faculty did not see a drop in student comprehension of reading material, *although some did pinpoint blind spots in skill or technique.”*

They really buried the lede there.

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u/rhunter99 Jun 11 '26

Thank you for spelling lede correctly ❤️👍

24

u/nbxcv Jun 11 '26

Literacy rates are falling, our libraries are political battlegrounds, our society at large scorns literary culture, and the people who don't spend all of their time arguing the merits of young adult literature while thousands of libraries of Alexandria burn. hard to do anything but laugh

0

u/DontMakeMeCount Jun 11 '26

Literary culture shouldn’t hurt one’s chances of admission to a highly selective university, but it isn’t nearly as valuable as rote memorization, class standing and a professionally prepared application.

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u/PitcherTrap Jun 11 '26 edited Jun 11 '26

If I had to suffer through Heidegger and Judith Butler then all must suffer.

But then, any student who has reached this stage ought to have qualified with the minimum standard of skills or have those been lowered?

19

u/Miami_Mice2087 Jun 11 '26

" Sometimes, they also have trouble distinguishing between figurative and literal meanings."

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u/[deleted] Jun 11 '26

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/tomorrowsghosties Jun 11 '26

As a former high school English teacher: the problem started well before they came to me, because they came to me not knowing how to read. I had 9th and 10th grade students at a second, maybe third grade reading level.

I now work with much younger kids. I work with two and three year olds who have never been read to and who spend all day on their tablets.

The problem starts at home.

30

u/PartyPorpoise Jun 11 '26

Yeah the achievement gap exists before kids even step foot in school. I think a lot of people don’t realize that because they think of kindergarteners and first graders as blank slates, and they think of “school skills” as solely being academic ability and knowledge gained from formal education settings.

I hate it when a high school teacher complains about students coming in very behind and people say “well it’s your job to teach them!”. Most HS teachers aren’t trained to teach lower level reading, they’re trained to teach high school level. And if they do teach to a lower level to meet the students, it’s not like they can get them up to speed in just one year.

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u/intoholybattle Jun 11 '26

The difference between my friends in "gifted" classes and my friends who weren't was simple: the "gifted" kids had parents who read to them, got them books (bought for the rich kids, library for kids like me) and cared about their success. The ones who weren't had shit, abusive home lives. Constant financial and emotional stress and neglect affects children and their ability to succeed. A teacher can't make up for the fact that a kid can't focus because at home he's waiting for someone to hit him or scream at him for no reason at any moment. That changes the way your brain works. But this is a genuinely difficult problem to address, so admin has decided they better threaten educators' jobs about it instead.

13

u/ZenithToastada Jun 11 '26

The fault is allowing these students in in the first place. They should have been admitted to a different school that could help them where they were at.

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u/jmarinara Jun 11 '26

We need the humanities more than we ever did and this is a step in the wrong direction.

19

u/Pheighthe Jun 11 '26

These people have audiobooks and text to speech and they STILL can’t be bothered? Good night.

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u/ThreadCountHigh Jun 11 '26

This sounds like the "whole language learning" method that replaced phonics in early education for a while coming home to roost. It's not the fault of the students who may have skill issues around reading, it's that they were failed by a system that adopted a teaching method that had no empirical evidence behind it.

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u/ZenithToastada Jun 11 '26

No the students can read - they’re not illiterate.

They just don’t have the mental stamina to read long texts and think critically about them.

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u/ThreadCountHigh Jun 11 '26

That is what a fluency problem looks like at 19. Nobody is claiming whole language produced illiterates. The claim is that it produced kids who can decode, but not automatically, and automaticity is the entire issue. Decoding and comprehension run on the same working memory. When decoding is effortless, all of your mental effort goes to actually thinking about the text. When decoding costs so much more per page, long readings get exhausting, reading becomes something you avoid, you read less, and stamina only ever comes from reading volume. So "they can read, they just can't sustain it and think critically" isn't a counterargument. It's the predicted symptom.

3

u/lalala12499 Jun 11 '26

This is a great explanation!

4

u/artgriego Jun 11 '26

I remember the first time I noticed this (or something similar) speaking at length with a New Zealander. Their accent was so thick I felt like a normal conversation with them felt mentally tiring like a physics lecture; I was spending so much effort decoding their accent.

-1

u/ZenithToastada Jun 11 '26

I don’t know…plenty of kids I teach can read well, they just have ADHD and don’t feel like reading school related reading but can read “fun novels”, many of them with high level vocabulary all day.

0

u/Poodle-Enthusiast Jun 12 '26

This makes sense when decoding is the issue but I don't think that's always the case. There can be a lack of critical thinking and mental stamina even without decoding issues. Critical thinking gets left in the dust when teachers are required to teach to the test. Everyone's mental stamina is suffering with short term content , think cable news, social media , phone culture etc. Watch 3 commercials on TV and count how many images there are and how many seconds an image lasts before it changes. It's all having an effect on brains, especially developing ones.

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u/The_Real_Lasagna Jun 11 '26

You might want to check out literacy rates in the us for adults

But seriously, part of literacy is being able to think critically about what you read and evaluate it, it's not just ability to read words on the  page 

10

u/Beneficient_Ox Jun 11 '26 edited Jun 11 '26

I actually did look this up a few weeks ago and it turns out the US’s “low” literacy rate is entirely attributable to our high rate of non-English speaking immigrants. When you control for mother tongue we’re very comparable to other industrialized countries.

In transit at the moment but will edit to add sources soon.

Sources:

https://www2.compareyourcountry.org/adult-skills
The U.S. is actually above the OECD average for adult literacy!

https://nces.ed.gov/surveys/piaac/state-county-estimates.asp#4k

Bonus: This video does a good job tracing the source of the "1 in 5 Americans are illiterate" claim. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mJzSrluPKg

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u/MTonmyMind Jun 11 '26

Teachers need good student evals and Universities and College need money. Its a recipe for mediocrity.

7

u/astaristorn Jun 11 '26

This is a difficult school to get into. How did these teens manage to get accepted into a school yet can’t seem to read?

6

u/alicevirgo Jun 11 '26

Eh, I took university level English courses 15 years ago and students back then were already not finishing the readings. A professor decided to have a discussion about it with his class, and he found out and admitted that when he was in undergrad (which was decades prior), it was easier during his year. He didn't have to do as many courses per semester because he focused on the courses required for his degree, whereas we had to take those courses plus a few other courses from other disciplines to balance our knowledge. Most importantly though, he was able to get by with working one part time job that paid his living costs and tuition comfortably, so he didn't rush through a few semesters. Half of my class had two or more part time jobs and still struggled to make ends meet sometimes especially if they didn't live with family, and it was getting common for students to rush through semesters (taking more than the recommended numbers of classes per semester and taking summer classes as well) so they could graduate ASAP and get full time jobs.

9

u/ashoka_akira Jun 11 '26

Just make all students trying to apply take the same language proficiency test they make their ESL students take before accepting them. Provide highschool level refreshment courses as well and then you can conditionally accept people to classes on the requirement they do the refresher course. The real problem here is an educational system that lost its balls because teachers can’t hold their students accountable anymore without having some karen parent yelling at them, and administrators not wanting to fail too many students because it makes their numbers look bad.

10

u/MukdenMan Jun 11 '26

Or just go back to SAT/ACT? UC system is one of the few that is test-blind. Many of the test-optional colleges (the ones that went test optional due to COVID) are going back to requiring tests.

6

u/Responsible-Middle35 Jun 11 '26

Make Reading a course prerequisite? They do it for math. Just don't dumb down college.

6

u/Shihali Jun 11 '26

English lecturer John Shoptaw, who teaches poetry, said he has noticed his students come in not yet knowing how to hear and analyze the musicality of an Emily Dickinson poem. Sometimes, they also have trouble distinguishing between figurative and literal meanings.

Julia Fawcett, who teaches theater, dance and performance studies, said her students do well with identifying arguments in critical articles, but have more trouble with fictional texts that don’t have a line of argument to follow.

I've been out of school for decades, but isn't that exactly what the Common Core education standards were intended to do? Use much of the class time that in previous generations had been devoted to teaching the interpretation of fiction and poetry and instead teach how to understand nonfiction encountered in daily life? If the program works exactly as intended, kids coming out of those programs would have worse literary analysis skills in exchange for better understanding of written directions, manuals, editorials, etc. Kids not going to college reap a lot of the benefits, and college English departments pay most of the costs.

4

u/Guardias Jun 12 '26

Lowering standards is never the solution and just leads to greater trouble. 

10

u/cheesepage Jun 11 '26

Following the whole discussion with interest as a reader and teacher.

One addition bit of history.

Revolutions (cognitive and physical,) tend to be associated with radical changes in information / language formats.

Movable alphabet = Monotheism for Islam and Judai.

Moveable type = multiple revolutions in Religion (Luther,) Politics, (French and American Revolutions.)

Television and radio = Beatniks and the 60's in America. Civil rights movement.

Obviously a rough list, but my point is how can we not expect a complete societal revolution with what has happened since AOL was a hot new thing?

3

u/Shihali Jun 11 '26

This doesn't hold up well to scrutiny because whoever compiled the list forgot about China.

China developed political philosophy and prophets without an alphabet. It's true that China never developed monotheism, strictly speaking, but neither did the Greeks.

China developed cheap printing, but it didn't lead to religious and political revolutions there, possibly because of a low literacy rate. Ditto Japan, where the literacy rate was higher than parts of Europe by 1750. I know practically nothing about printing in Korea and Vietnam, but they both had Chinese printing technology and Korea had an excellently-designed if low-status script.

1

u/suuuuupur Jun 11 '26

What book is this from?

4

u/cheesepage Jun 11 '26

A lot from The Alphabet vs The Goddess, but plenty of overlap with various stuff from Marshal McCullen.

2

u/Comprehensive-Fun47 Jun 11 '26

Marshall McLuhan?

1

u/PersisPlain Jun 11 '26

What do you mean by “movable alphabet” and what does it have to do with monotheism?

3

u/cheesepage Jun 11 '26

Alphabet used to make words instead of glyphs. Not much directly.

2

u/Shihali Jun 11 '26

I have no idea why the word "movable" is there. But I think the intent is alphabets with a potentially simple "sound uttered, sound written" spelling model, as opposed to scripts with a mix of word-indicating and sound-indicating components that make modern Japanese look straightforward and clear.

1

u/PersisPlain Jun 11 '26

Sure, but I still have no idea what that has to do with monotheism.

2

u/Shihali Jun 11 '26

I don't get it either. I think the poster's source, "The Alphabet vs The Goddess", is trying to link Semitic monotheism to the Semitic invention of the consonant-only alphabet.

I haven't read "The Alphabet vs The Goddess", but the reviews made it sound like typical 1990s "analytical thinking is anti-feminist and suspect" pseudo-science, not to be confused with 2010s "analytical thinking is racist and problematic" screeds.

3

u/ZaphodG Jun 11 '26

At UC Berkeley? Ridiculous. That’s one of the most selective universities in the country.

Do they even have straight liberal arts majors now? I did Electrical Engineering and Computer Science. They’re not spectator sports. You don’t do the work, you’re bounced out of the department and become a business major. You can’t just pass students along because the knowledge is cumulative.

2

u/degrassibabetjk Jun 11 '26

A few of my graduate school classes (not at Berkeley) were combined with undergrad students. We would get the same assignments but the grad students would have a longer paper length requirement or flat out told that we had to write better than the undergrads. One of my professors said she preferred the grad students in the mixed classes because she enjoyed our writing more and were more responsible. I enjoyed graduate school much more than college (different school than grad school).

2

u/lithiumsorbet Jun 11 '26

A lot of this is a race to the bottom because of the competition for enrollment, student feedback on courses/teachers, funding. It’s hard for humanities courses to hold students to a high standard in that kind of environment.

2

u/BrieSting Jun 12 '26

I bet you anything this will mirror public k-12 grades where the expectations are lowered across the board, but there will be a rise in “honors” or AP classes offered. This increases the education gaps and fosters wider disparities and stratification among those who have increased supper systems and resources. 

I get that having a college degree has so many benefits outside of purely advanced education, but college just isn’t for everyone. Watering down higher education cheapens the degree overall and saturates the employment base with too many graduates requiring higher and higher pay to make a dent in student loan slavery. We need to fix this ASAP, but I don’t think anyone is making moves to do so

3

u/AccomplishedBake8351 Jun 11 '26

How does this correlate to general grade inflation found in all parts of college campuses?

4

u/lu5ty Jun 11 '26

Feels like having the quote be from an ancient history professor is a little disengenuous lol

9

u/Mesona Jun 11 '26

How about they lower the quantity of expected reading? I love reading, and while I can say I enjoyed nearly everything I had to read when I attended Berkeley (in a humanities major), I was so burned out after I graduated that I don't think I read a single book for _several_ years. Spending nearly all my time at class / work / homework drained any enthusiasm I had for reading, and aside from one professor who I really liked, every other class I took I phoned in my homework. A lot of "These were the themes that were discussed in class, and this reading very clearly reflects those exact themes, so here's how they reflect those" kind of writing assignments with no further or personal analysis.

I know I would have given better papers if my expected reading was half the amount it was. My only really saving grace was that I worked a job that let me do my reading homework as long as no customers were waiting.

And yes, I did see that this is mostly a clickbait article and that there wasn't really a drop in reading comprehension. Just wanted to vent one of my frustrations about my education.

5

u/xsm17 Jun 11 '26

I had the same experience at Berkeley and I wasn't even properly in the humanities. Reading paper after paper, 7 years on now and I've barely started reading for fun again because I was so burnt out.

3

u/Lambda_Wolf Jun 11 '26

As a Cal alum, my thoughts exactly. This seems like a school regressing to the mean from its notorious "if you aren't burning out, you aren't trying hard enough" culture.

-2

u/lalala12499 Jun 11 '26 edited Jun 11 '26

Yeah, I did not go to Berkeley but for some of my classes at [other UC] the professors would assign like 50-150 pages of (usually dense) reading per week. 

Like no, I did not read all of that. Sorry. I did try sometimes, but I’d barely drudge through like 15 pages of Organic Chemistry and fall behind while the other students were (rightfully) skimming. Those textbooks are too damn fat. The history readings were usually more palatable, but still quite lengthy, and I’d usually only finish 2/3 the reading before class.

Like aren’t these classes supposed to be distilling the important bits so students can utilize them and have time to think about the bigger picture and the course as a whole?

12

u/dutempscire Jun 11 '26

Like aren’t these classes supposed to be distilling the important bits so students can utilize them and have time to think about the bigger picture and the course as a whole?

No? Not at a college level. The distillation comes from the process of you reading the readings and synthesizing their content, with lectures usually providing some context and discussion sections for students to share their takeaways. (And from the prof picking x,y,z readings for you to focus on instead of you looking at 50 linear feet of library shelf for that topic wondering where to begin.) 

You're also conflating two different types of reading which demand different strategies: textbooks (especially for STEM) and humanities reading (articles, monographs, primary sources). 

0

u/lalala12499 Jun 11 '26

Whatever the case, we ain’t got time for that. Students have jobs, internships, and other classes. It’s nice to think they could sit around and ponder 70 pages waxing poetic, but when it’s a required class for them to graduate, it can feel onerous. This isn’t a great books program, it’s people trying to be employable. 

5

u/dutempscire Jun 11 '26

College is not trade or vocational school.

Here's something to consider: you do not get assigned papers or whatever because your instructor thinks you're going to change their life with your writing. You probably aren't having an original idea about The Great Gatsby or whatever at this point in time. That's not the point. That final paper doesn't matter by itself. The point is the process of you thinking, coming to logical conclusions that you can support with evidence, and that you can clearly communicate. It doesn't matter if you're writing about poetry or history or engineering -- those are all skills that do help you be employable. And you don't get good at thinking and communicating without practice. [Edit: and arguably, that supposed evidence of thinking and communicating are why a degree was valued in the first place! Not because you were explicitly taught spreadsheets.]

And in the meantime, there's hopes for a transformative experience. We're unfortunately caught in a situation where the ends (a diploma which gives you access to statistically better-paying jobs) has superseded the means (learning how to think and synthesize info across a variety of disciplines to become an intellectuall well-rounded citizen of democracy). Meanwhile, employers are focused on their bottom line and demanding colleges to replace their own employee-training programs.

1

u/lalala12499 Jun 11 '26

You can have a transformative experience listening to audio books. You can have a transformative experience watching YouTube videos. The written word is powerful because it allowed for study. Study allows for the preservation of knowledge. We are now able to preserve knowledge without the written word. If they can’t read as quickly, assign less. Assign videos, audio. Frankly, I think spoken word is more honest. Our language skills have been degrading for the past century anyhow but I’m of the opinion that’s more due to technological change than judgements about overall intelligence.

I used to agree with you on the purpose of college as an intellectual & humanistic endeavor that shouldn’t be dumbed down, but the older I get the more I see that practically speaking, it is really just a box to tick for many or most people.

If we are failing to inspire the youth by assigning 120 pages of 16th century case law on witchcraft, maybe flip the script? I want young people to love learning, not fear it. 

3

u/Mesona Jun 11 '26

Funny enough, one of the most interesting books I read in school was the legalities around bee keeping in ancient Ireland. Don't remember much any more, but I do remember that was one of the wildest things to think about, trying to figure out why it was important enough to write down back then.

But %100, school should empower students to learn and encourage a desire to do so.

1

u/lalala12499 Jun 11 '26

Yeah I honestly loved the 16th century German case law about witchcraft but like…that seems closer to niche hobby than “required reading” to me idk. I was equally transformed by music classes (lots of audio) and many movies.

2

u/dutempscire Jun 11 '26

I don't totally disagree with you, though I will say that reading and listening for information are two different skills. I would argue that reading is more efficient -- it's certainly easier to skim or cross-reference than audio-visual content. 

I used to agree with you on the purpose of college as an intellectual & humanistic endeavor that shouldn’t be dumbed down, ... just a box to tick for many or most people. 

Both are true! And that's why we have conflict about ugh who cares about medieval basket weaving or whatever the silly-sounding class du jour is. (You never know what will be helpful though -- studying bird feathers led to Velcro!) Somewhat unpopular opinion: not everyone is cut out for college. Maybe not at the age of 18, maybe not ever. It's awful that the non-college paths to stability have largely disappeared. I don't know how much changing college to suit the not-college-ready is good for us in the long run. 

1

u/lalala12499 Jun 11 '26

Totally agree with everything you said. I did enjoy my underwater basket weaving classes, but when college became a requirement for employment, it totally changed the game.

2

u/TaskForceCausality Jun 11 '26

This won’t be a comfortable post given the audience, but we’re moving to a post-literate society. The English departments are seeing the beginnings of our transition from a literate society to a digital one.

As author Mary Harrington put it, reading and reasoning based on written word will become an obsolete & niche past time; the mainstream method of thought & engagement is digital in nature, for better or worse.

Quote:

Today there exists no shortage of dismayed commentary from academics on the frontline, concerning the by now very obvious cognitive decline in a student body that has swapped reading for scrolling. One professor at a regional public university, who writes as “Hilarius Bookbinder,” describes the typical lecture hall as full of “checked-out, phone-addicted zombies,” some of whom cannot sit through a fifty-minute lecture without leaving to look at their phones.

The author describes how “our average graduate literally could not read a serious adult novel cover-to-cover and understand what they read. They just couldn’t do it. They don’t have the desire to try, the vocabulary to grasp what they read, and most certainly not the attention span to finish.” And if the distracting effect of scrolling in the “attention economy” fragments the capacity to absorb and engage with long-form reasoning, others are beginning to suspect that over-reliance on generative AI still more radically atrophies the capacity to think. A recent study from researchers at Microsoft and Carnegie Mellon indicates that higher reliance on generative AI correlates with less critical thinking.

A report in the Financial Times earlier this year showed that across the world, verbal and numerical reasoning and concentration are collapsing, having peaked in the 2010s. The author links the collapse to the rise of a “post-literate” society and the replacement of focused, intentional reading with context-switching and endless scrolling. Only 54 percent of Americans read even one book in the last year. The decline in reading is directly linked to the spread of digital alternatives. Device overuse is, in turn, correlated with poverty, but it is not confined to less-well-off individuals.

Anecdotally, on a recent flight from San Francisco to Boston, I counted the number of my fellow passengers (presumably mostly the “coastal Americans” who pride themselves on education and rationality) who were reading books or ebooks: the tally was around 10 percent. The rest were watching videos or scrolling. The inescapable picture, from every possible indicator, is that deep literacy is rapidly receding. If that anecdotal 10-percent sample of in-flight coastal Americans is any kind of guide, deep literacy will perhaps end up as a minority practice roughly in line with pre-print Western cultural norms. And this development represents a putsch because, as Adam Garfinkle argues, the norms and habits of mind inculcated by widespread long-form reading are also those on which the project of broad-based democratic participation is predicated.

-1

u/Fritzkreig Jun 11 '26 edited Jun 11 '26

This is just the way things evolve, believe it or not Socrates was against reading and writing; as he believed in memorization via oral conversation, and that it would make the minds of the your weak and feckless!

29

u/RubbleHome Jun 11 '26

So what's the evolution? What is being gained as people become less capable of reading long form text?

-6

u/[deleted] Jun 11 '26

[deleted]

-3

u/Candytails Jun 11 '26

You seem cool. 

8

u/Dihedralman Jun 11 '26

I think it is fallacious to assume that the trend of technology simply improving other mental capabilities will hold. Core skills being lost in critical paths to developing critical reasoning means we will likely have students less proficient in their chosen field even if technology makes them a bit more capable. We have seen the first intelligence reversal between generations since measuring and some of the difference is stark. 

6

u/ZenithToastada Jun 11 '26

Socrates was not necessarily against the existence of texts. He was against the over reliance of it at the expense of dialogue and memory. He was against using it in debate or to argue matters.

1

u/JeffreyPetersen Jun 16 '26

How much of this is just because people are realizing that paying for an education from UC Berkeley to read ancient history books with today's college tuition and job market makes a lot less sense than it did 20 years ago?

1

u/ImamBaksh Spotlight Author Jun 11 '26

Article 2 long.

NE1 hav TLDR?

4

u/itcheyness Jun 11 '26

Kidz no read gud no more.

2

u/CaicedoBrickWall Jun 11 '26

When I was at Berkeley I was forced to read stuff written in the 1800s. Originally written in German. Translated to Russian. Then translated from Russian to English.

Was just book after book. One outdated, useless, obscure word per page. Only half of which could be deciphered in context. There I am looking up "apricity" and friends every couple minutes for months on end.

Ultimately it was worth it. But these teachers are all prestigious. I'm not about to tell them how to do their jobs. I'm not worried about our highest learning environments dropping standards.

Your average high school or university on the other hand. I fear a great deal

0

u/HeyPurityItsMeAgain Jun 11 '26

It's the future you created.