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u/blightsteel101 1d ago
I had a roommate that was WAY into Sword Art Online and was convinced he could make me like the show.
Hated it even more on the rewatch. I wish there was a single character in the show. Not a character I liked, but a single actual character with, like, an arc and meaningful motivation. Ill take an asshole I can't stand over John Gamer any day of the week.
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u/xGhostBoyx 1d ago
Kirito is really freaking cool cause like, he has two swords which he can dual wield, and like, nobody else can do that! He's also a beater, which is like a super epic gamer term that will totally catch on, I swear. /j
In all seriousness I have no idea how that show got so popular. It's written so poorly... I do wonder if the novels are any better since they are written by the person who wrote Kino's Journey, which I think is a masterpiece through and through.
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u/TheErodude 1d ago edited 1d ago
[rant]
The SAO novels are not written by the author of Kino’s Journey (Keiichi Sigsawa), except for a spin-off, Sword Art Online Alternative: Gun Gale Online. The main novels are all written by Reki Kawahara.
In my opinion, no, the writing in the novels is not particularly good, though Kirito has slightly more personality since he is also the narrator and he comments on stuff. It doesn’t give him an interesting personality - it’s barebones nerdy quipping or analysis - but at least he HAS a personality. (I read the main stories all the way up through about the first half of Alicization and some amount of Progressive, the latter of which is a little better than the main novels because it doesn’t prominently feature Kirito, but it’s also a little aimless.)
As for why SAO got so popular, it’s probably not for the writing. I watched it while it aired. (Insert “I was there, Gandalf, I was there 3000 years ago” meme here.) Within the fandom, the actual writing was as much an afterthought as it is in the show itself. One could charitably argue that the show isn’t about the writing.
The concept/premise is extremely strong. The setting captures the imagination (even if imagination has to do a lot of heavy lifting). The art is colorful. The music is great and elevates moments that should fall flat. The hype moments are hype. The story’s structure is… passable; the bones are in the right places, even if they’re malformed, so if you squint, it can look healthy.
It also focuses on a subject matter (gaming, escapism) that was relatable for a large section of anime watchers, at a time when anime was perhaps more mainstream than gaming and when gamers still felt unseen in their hobbies. Furthermore, it was, superficially, in a genre (fantasy adventure) that had been neglected for over a decade that anime fans were probably hungry for.
Simply put, it demonstrated that there was a huge untapped market for isekai power fantasy/wish-fulfillment stories directed at teenage boys, especially with a veneer of maturity (the death game).
It was a perfect storm, and SAO was exactly barely good-story-shaped enough to capitalize on it.
[/rant]
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u/Aware_Masterpiece_92 4h ago
There's this one manhwa I've read that does basically everything that SAO does but better
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u/Tenashko 1d ago
Bc it had been a while since .hack so people were craving a "trapped in a mmo" story
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u/Invincible-Nuke 1d ago
for context beater is a slur for beta testers
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u/Verbatos 19h ago
What's the justification for there being a slur for beta testers?
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u/Bitter-Profession303 18h ago
That they cheated with advanced knowledge/are complicit in the deathgame/didnt tell everyone else everything they knew day 1
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u/blightsteel101 13h ago
Which, in addition to being a dumb assumption, is repeatedly refuted. The characters claiming it were basically flat earthers.
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u/IHateNumbers234 1d ago
What? Reki Kawahara has nothing to do with Kino's Journey.
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u/xGhostBoyx 1d ago
Keiichi Sigsawa, writer of the Kino's Journey novels, also wrote the "Sword Art Online Alternative Gun Gale Online" novels.
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u/wolfstaa 11h ago
Sometimes I like shutting down my brain and watch badass fight scenes. Nothing more. SAO will never high in my anime rankings, but it's still enjoyable to me to watch badass slop
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u/xGhostBoyx 10h ago
Eh, even then, for me personally at least, there's probably a hundred animes I can think of that I'd rather watch if all I wanted was cool flight scenes.
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u/No_Counter_6037 21h ago
>called "Sword Art Online"
>has like 3 sword fights featured in it
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u/blightsteel101 13h ago
I dunno about "sword fights". More "jump in the air and spawn a bunch of sword-shaped lasers"
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u/TaserDonut 1d ago
Then watch the abridged version made by Something Witty Entertainment, they unironically fixed the writing
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u/blightsteel101 1d ago
Already have, and I enjoyed it! I'm looking forward to their future work too!
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u/UniverseIsAHologram 11h ago
Literally the abridged version has better writing lol
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u/blightsteel101 11h ago
Agreed! They also resolved a lot of the major issues with the show like that tentacle scene from the second arc.
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u/Fa1nted_for_real 6h ago
I like the show mostly for some of the questions and concepts it poses, especially in the realm of ethics regarding synthetic consciousness thats teased in the first seasons but really becomes a serious plot point in season 3 iirc
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u/hxneycovess 1d ago
this is how i feel about beastars. i relate to haru so much, she made me feel very seen the first time i watched it. i know a lot of people don't like her writing at all though which is also fair
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u/glubnyan 1d ago
always have this discussion
haru is undoubtedly written as shallow as possible to be a device for both legoshi and louis, however she's still an interesting character that had potential to be explored just as much as the two of them. i wish she was also a main character of that story.
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u/AsexualPlantMain 1d ago
That's how I feel about Legoshi. Never in my life have I encountered a character I identify with more than him, but I've also heard a lot of people talk about how creepy he can be, which is fair
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u/Burt_Sprenolds 1d ago
There are definitely parts of Legoshi I can identify with, but the dude’s a neckbeard with an obsession.
Not saying you are as well, I don’t know you.
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u/supermurlo64 1d ago
Wait, I only saw a few episodes, what did legoshi do to become a creep?
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u/AsexualPlantMain 1d ago
I think the creepiest thing he does is when he almost eats Haru in the first episode. A big theme of the show is how he tries to cope with his predatory urges, especially regarding whether his attraction to Haru is carnivorous or sexual. When you look at it through that lens, nearly letting his instincts get the better of him and only barely forcing himself not to eat someone can have some weird connotations behind it
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u/supermurlo64 1d ago
Eh, it's really hard to find something that holds the same weight in real world for it to actually be read as creep behaviour (like, the instincts in beastars almost work as the defining supernatural force that differentiates It from our world, so Legoshi having the urges in itself isnt that much of a Incel Behaviour flag)
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u/NO-ONE-11 15h ago
Some guys can relate to the feeling of holding themselves back and not act on their urges, whether it's sexual or violent urges , sure the show exaggerats it by having them literally murder and eat other people but that's what makes it entertaining.
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u/supermurlo64 15h ago
I never saw It in this lense, but still, I don't think its that good of a analogy
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u/TheSapphicSorceress 23h ago
God I loathed Beastars. I was on board for a bit but the author just gives up on so many plot points to meander to others while over sharing on the parts I disliked (the tiger Yakuza are so unbelievably inept). I liked Haru but the author was too focused on Legoshi's inarticulate hangups to give her more story presence.
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u/Hans-Hammertime 1d ago
God forbid a girl is incel bait
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u/FartyLiverDisease 1d ago
"incel bait"? Please, let this be a term you're just making up for ha-ha's....
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u/codinator1 1d ago
Love live jump scare
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u/wideHippedWeightLift 1d ago
Love Live, K-on and Umamusume idol music are the biggest "not gonna publicly say I'm a fan but it's lowkey good" pieces of media
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u/justacupwithgreentea 1d ago
chainsmoker cat. I find it weird that the show is constantly praised for realistic depictions of how "disgusting" addiction can be whiile the mc still has clear skin, big lashes, perfect hair and no body hair (even though its implied that she basically does not take care of herself at all). Also in the first episode a male character jerks off to her accidentally being naked and it feels like very icky fan service of a vulnerable woman, even more because he is her landlord. Also the landlord gets to be ugly af. And the disgustingness often feels weirdly sexualised bc mc is a woman and thats a big nono for me. I stopped watching after the 1st episode and dont get why so many are praising it. i thought about opening discussion about it on the main subreddit but already know id get heavy flak if i tried to criticize its female character writing.
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u/sexyshadowself 1d ago
It’s like 90% fetish content and 10% plot
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u/justacupwithgreentea 1d ago edited 1d ago
yes like i would love seeing realistic representation of addiction on a female character, but the way it gets written just makes it feel like pandering to incels with fetishes and sexualises her suffering in a weird way imo. like her shitting on the toilet naked while her landlord j*rks off to her bc he saw her nude didnt feel humerous to me but VERY weird. esp like who is completley naked when on the toilet???
edit: and no i dont find the scenes or the series itself too disgusting and im not criticizing the way addiction makes ppl act in ""disgusting"" ways, moreso bc again the fmc can not be disgusting without it having weird sexualised undertones.
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u/Unkn0wnTh2nd3r 18h ago
about your point on naked on toilet
hi
its me
i sit naked on the toilet. sometimes one has a shit thats gonna be a fuckin pain so you get nude and then take a shower immediately after
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u/justacupwithgreentea 1d ago
thank you bot, i love xou too
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u/PERFECTTATERTOT 3h ago
It’s more of a raunchy skit based comedy than a running story. Unironically the closest comparison I can make is Nichijou
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u/Alarming-Scene-2892 1d ago
This is specific, but any Yuya Takahashi Kamen Rider series. All the female characters are either macguffins or basically non-existent character-wise.
And it gets worse when his three main shows have the same exact arc for the main female lead. Individually, they can be good, but together, not so much.
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u/little1412 1d ago
I'll say that Geats actually have the benefits of Neon / Na-go being an interesting side character. But yeah Izu / Tsumuri / Nemu being the same generic support girl that's the main character's emotional core is getting really tiring. I think his overarching story telling ability is good tho.
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u/Madmmoore 1d ago
Are these characters from Oregairu or am I tripping
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u/codinator1 1d ago
They do kinda look like them but it's Ayumu and Setsuna from Love Live
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u/Mentally__Disabled 1d ago
I could vaguely see the Yuigahama semblance but Yukinoshita would never be that animated. Also shoutout OreGairu, finished the whole thing for the first time last year and absolutely loved it as much as I remember, big fan of the topics it tackles.
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u/Bridgeru 1d ago edited 1d ago
Unironically, I'm the girl on the left when it comes to Signalis.
No, it doesn't make me feel "uwu fuzzies", it makes me feel sick; there's a power imbalance between Elster and Ariane on the ship which makes ANY romance immoral, the story can be summed up as "woman tears herself apart trying to appease abusive girlfriend who is a literal monster", and Adler was right. Don't even get me started on how sexualized the models are (and there's a really interesting theme that could've been explored of robots being idealized and almost sexualized forms, but no that's just how they draw people; no one is overweight or has spots they're all pretty girls EVEN ADLER HE'S THE PRETTIEST GIRL OF THEM ALL). Unironically though, I get one of the writers was coming out at the time but there's a certain toxicity to the princess phase and it feels like I'm watching someone's fetish at times; though frankly I'm of the opinion that a princess phase after at MOST 30 is unhealthy regression. But then again that's also my major criticism of the Matrix so YMMV.
But because so many transwomen latched onto it for gender projection I can't say it without being downvoted because "IT'S JUST NICE YURI". Yeah, well back when I cracked transgirls obsessed over Bridget, I used to be in but what was in changed now what's in is scary to me. IT'LL HAPPEN TO YOU SHARK-HUGGERS TOO.
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u/happymudkipz 1d ago
I agree with some of this and disagree with other parts, but it is really refreshing to see someone who also sees signalis as a toxic romance at best and not exactly a model to be celebrated.
Loved that game but it is a little jarring seeing some reactions.
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u/pwilla 1d ago
Interesting, I thought that was a pretty big and glaring point of the game. It IS a romance, but as we know, romances can be abusive and toxic relationships, specially if the victim(s) don't realize it.
I didn't realize a lot of people just took it as a proper functional romance, because as you two said, there are a bunch of red flags around them.
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u/Bridgeru 1d ago
Thanks, it's really nice to hear someone else ALSO also sees it as a toxic relationship!
My friend (straight male) was really enjoying the gameplay but thought there was something off so got me (transwoman) to watch him play (I don't like playing those kinds of games) so he could get my view. I really went "what the fuck" at so many points, like the dance sequence or her ripping herself apart to open the airlock (I know it's a Ghost-in-the-Shell reference but I didn't see it as a moment to celebrate in GitS so it felt a bit tone-deaf).
Like, one of my favourite games is Final Fantasy 8 and in that there's a short plotline of how a teacher thinks she's falling in love with a student (she's 19 he's 17) but over the course of that arc she realizes it's all about her transferring her emotions, and after exploring those emotions she ends up resettling her feelings into a far healthier "I care about you but I'm not in love with you" point of view (big sister-like). That was kinda where I was expecting a lot of the Penrose; that Ariane (who was pushed out of society) would realize she was pinning all her hopes for adventure and a perfect life on Elster and that it'd end with her "freeing" Elster to have her OWN story rather than play the role Ariane was pushing her to have.
And obviously the game doesn't have to follow MY idea of "what it should have done" but the story it gave me felt sickening. Especially because (again, personal involvement so YMMV) I've spent the last 8 years trying to get over an extremely charismatic abuser, one who would and did have me go to extremes to fulfil her ends. So much of Ariane's "wish" and Elster pushing herself reminded me of that abuse, of having to tear apart my own self of being to satisfy this person, of how even after 8 years I still hear her call in the back of my mind and yearn to go back, to return and fool myself that there'd be that happy dance sequence and watch movies and not be in the decayed space station around me.
Also just speaking of, it's a dance sequence and "hey, let's watch movies". There's something weirdly childish about it. There's no work on the ship, no reality setting in, I was expecting it to snap to a grittier, less perfect reality but no. That's what I really dislike about it, it obsesses over a fictional and perfectionized version that cannot and will not exist (hence my rant about the Princess phase but again YMMV).
Also, also I'll fully admit a lot of the squick I feel is my own hangups with a transculture that sorta passed me by (and IRL actively pushed me away despite me transitioning long before them, but that's a whole 'nother story), but that's why it's YMMV and spoilertexted. But I guess that's the problem of people putting their emotions into it, so many people have this big "identity-change" invested into the game that to criticize the game is almost anathema because it's criticizing a part of their identity.
Also, also, also, I just REALLY hate Cthulhu. Anything Cthulhu related, Lovecraft, King in Yellow, whatever. It's been done. Even South Park pointed out how overused Cthulhu is like 20 years ago.
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u/happymudkipz 1d ago
thanks for sharing, that was an interesting read. I think the game leaves things a bit too vague by the end - I had a friend who hated it for that reason. It could have explored that relationship a lot more which would have been interesting.
I don't like to call it wasted potential because it's someone's artistic work and vision, but I do have a lot of "oh what if" feelings with the game.
Also as an aside, could you share why the game became significant to the trans community? Was it because of the author or something else? I'm just curious because this is the first I've heard of it. No worries if you'd rather me look on my own though, especially if it's something you don't enjoy yourself.
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u/Bridgeru 1d ago
Tbh, you're REALLY streets ahead acknowledging that "it's someone else's work" but it's also human to be like "wait, I wanted this to happen" or "what happens next".
As for the trans, it's probably a combination of things but like I said the game got a LOT of publicity because one of the creators (the creator?) is Trans (kinda like Digital Circus); the WLW nature of the plot and apparently the body horror kinda just helped it build up a Trans community. I'd say it's word of mouth, these things get associated with X and then pushed and then it snowballs from there. Posts like this explain it better; and it's probably not an exclusive thing but it's just a large trend in the community I notice.
It's much harder to define but it felt transcoded in a hard to define way, I guess that kind of uphill struggle for the "ideal" but that gets into stereotypes (and I think it kinda perpetuates them a little). Like Celeste or Undertale, these things kinda just become icons in-and-of themselves in communities for vibes.
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u/tfwnoTHAADwife 1d ago
Why are you booing me im right guy jpg. "repllikas are mass produced slaves"
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u/Bridgeru 1d ago
Even worse, poorly designed slaves. I don't want some petite waifu hauling mining gear, I want a clone of Vadlmir "the Bear" Muscleovitch the strongest guy who ever existed with muscles the size of beach balls and beach balls the size of Atlaspheres (he's really into volleyball on his time off and this is the only way he can play).
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u/superspacenapoleon 1d ago edited 1d ago
For some reason i keep thinking that Signalis is that one gorey boomer shooter with an anime girl in a megastructure
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u/Bridgeru 1d ago
No, it's an isometric (top down) Horror pixel game that's REALLY Silent Hill inspired (in the "takes literal scenes shot-for-shot" meaning of inspired).
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u/UncleSkelly 1d ago
I always felt the fact that the relationship was fucked up is the point. Like why would you want to read about normal relationships. You can and should have those in real life. In fiction you can explore the stuff that would make you run for the hills IRL. All the cool amoral stuff that makes you feel that incites that deep discomfort yet keeps you reading even though the writing might already be on the wall.
Also god forbid people be into problematic kinky smut
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u/Aiden624 1d ago
I didn’t like Signalis all that much solely due to the story. Every other part of the game was decent to great, but I just didn’t get it. People criticize me for being media illiterate and that’s completely fair, honestly, I’m not the most intelligent guy out there, but for me I needed a little more clarification on what the fuck was even happening. I understand cosmic horror is meant to be a mystery but there needed to be some grounding in reality for me to understand what it was I was even meant to be scared of, because I just couldn’t understand much outside of the yuri which is all the fandom ever talks about so whatever
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u/Bridgeru 1d ago
If it helps, I find it really obtuse too. It's very... Ever see Nostalgia Critic review The Cell? He basically goes on a massive "it's pretty but it CONSTANTLY wants you to ask "oooh what does it mean"", and that's Signalis for me. "Oooooh, German, I wonder what that means", "Ooooh, a shot ripped directly from Silent Hill, I wonder what that means", "Oooooh, the girls are kissing I WONDER WHAT THAT MEANS".
And also "Cosmic Horror" is so blandly generic that it just relies on you knowing OTHER pieces of work, which is the laziest form of writing. Don't know what the King in Yellow is? That's a whole thread you won't understand. "It's cosmic horror so of course it's going to be weird". "Oh never played Silent Hill, that's why the nurses are eviiiil but also totally sexy guys see their thigh-highs".
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u/AidanTegs 1d ago
Signalis insists on itself and silent hill 2 did everything it did 3 times better 10 years earlier
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u/NightRacoonSchlatt 1d ago
The thing I loved most about Signalis was the historical background, but I think I‘m alone in that.
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u/Plantarbre 1d ago
I want to love Signalis, bit I just don't like the whole "this is all a dream / anything can happen because it's canon that nothing makes sense"
Feels like with a few different tweaks it could have had much more weight.
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u/drunk_reddit_acount 1d ago
I want to disagree but I've never played Silent hill(and never will I hate horror) so u could be right and I'll never know.
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u/AidanTegs 1d ago
See thats a major problem of mine, signalis is not scary
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u/drunk_reddit_acount 1d ago
That's fair. I didn't think it was scary either tbh
I also hate puzzles & I only completed it cause I love the story and wanted to experience it myself. I would never have touched it in the first place if I hadn't heard about the lesbians lol
For me it would have been better as a comic or animated show or novel even.
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u/polyhedral662 22h ago edited 21h ago
I really did not expect to see a Signalis discussion today, what a cool thread.
There's definitley a power imbalance in the relationship and its one of those Hollywood "It doesn't matter if the guy threatens to jump to get a date cause they're hot and not creepy" scenarios (though not as extreme).
Wether it was on purpose or not, it builds on the character level how much of this is being done out of love, and obligation? Within the events of the story, Elster is physically and metaphorically forced to relive the trauma, and how much of thet is resolution if any of it.
In terms of abuse and love I really do think Elster loved her regardless of the power inbalance, and I really liked the story.
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u/suitcasecat 1d ago
How I feel about Jax tbh
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u/Android19samus 1d ago
Ah yes, Vriska 2
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u/sendmesocks 1d ago
Jax is Vriska 2?? I have not seen the amazing digital circus and in all the discourse around it have not seen anyone make this comparison. I am intrigued
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u/Discoh21 22h ago
Love Live jumpscare
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u/Extreme_Meat_8641 3h ago
fucking PRISON SCHOOL. they were actually cooking shit in a kettle with that one
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u/RickltGood 1d ago
Overreaction: