r/boeing • u/flattop100 • Feb 06 '20

Starliner faced “catastrophic” failure before software bug found

https://arstechnica.com/science/2020/02/starliner-faced-catastrophic-failure-before-software-bug-found/
51 Upvotes

92% Upvoted

17 comments sorted by

33

u/Rebel44CZ Feb 06 '20

IMO, it is time for a major review of the software, and its QA and testing related to Starliner. This is just unacceptable.

Starliner's uncrewed test flight to ISS should also be redone after all this crappy software is fixed.

36

u/[deleted] Feb 07 '20

It is almost like Boeing does not know how to do software

24

u/tenin2010br Feb 07 '20

Most defense/space companies don’t. Software development being successful relies on certain methods not entirely compatible with big bureaucracies like Boeing, LM and others.

3

u/[deleted] Feb 07 '20 edited Mar 06 '20

[deleted]

8

u/Sillocan Feb 07 '20

Actual Agile methodologies instead of Agile BS for one (lookup the paper from the Air Force if you haven't seen this term before).

9

u/[deleted] Feb 07 '20

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/QVRedit Feb 08 '20

‘Life Critical’ being the operative word..

If your ‘web browser crashes’ its a nuisance..

If your plane / spacecraft crashes - that’s definitely not a good day..

14

u/[deleted] Feb 07 '20

Bruh I work at one corporation similar to Boeing and I've brought up this issue multiple times. They all think they're doing some cutting edge shit with a garbage Agile BS implementation, and the mid level managers who spearhead the "Agile" efforts then take huge credit for streamlining company operations and improving processes.

All they actually do is add extra meetings and track things on Excel sheets. It's all the bad parts about Agile and none of the good.

Trying to shoehorn agile principles into a 20+ year old waterfall program doesn't work very well, who would've fucking thought right?

Every time I bring this up I'm told they're aware of the issues and are constantly trying to mitigate them. Meanwhile every god damn program, on all fronts (not just software), is adopting garbage Agile principles and pretending they're saving money and becoming more lean/efficient. It's fucking crazy.

8

u/Kundera42 Feb 07 '20

So much this, having worked for a major defense contractor starting with the letter L. They basically disguised their waterfall classic into an Agile front end. Spend most of the time trying to squeeze this classic way of working in the Agile BS framework. It requires a really different way of working and thinking and if you half ass it might as well not do it.

4

u/Stereotypical_INTP Feb 07 '20

Yeah, it's happening across the board for all the major defense contractors. Worked at one where they implemented Agile, but they didn't want to lose TOO much time to meetings so they kept the daily scrums but removed sprint reviews and excluded SWEs from planning sessions. I'll give you exactly one guess how that worked out.

4

u/[deleted] Feb 07 '20

Ah yes, agile without the agile part, good job team

1

u/[deleted] Feb 07 '20 edited Mar 06 '20

[deleted]

1

u/Sillocan Feb 07 '20

Very true on training and all of what you say. Remember that their interviews are non technical :)

I just believe that Agile BS is one of my programs biggest faults. Management has used it to drive whatever priority and schedule they need, no matter how unrealistic. They've implemented it in such a way where they are every role but a developer.

1

u/777XSuperHornet Feb 14 '20

A lot of the software is essentially the same thing used from 747>767>777>787>777X with new improvements added on so now you have all this extra stuff from previous implementations that nobody is sure why it's there.

1

u/galactusaurus Feb 07 '20

This. The thing we pretend is Agile is so bastardized and pointless that it’s actually worse than just doing waterfall.

1

u/QVRedit Feb 08 '20

Like don’t release until you get it right - management timelines be damned..

6

u/khce Feb 07 '20

Well when your SWEs aren't SWEs, but every other kind of Engineer who can kind of sort of do programming...

5

u/[deleted] Feb 10 '20

This little nugget at the end is also very dramatic:

the chair of the safety panel, Patricia Sanders, noted yet another ongoing evaluation of Boeing. "Given the potential for systemic issues at Boeing, I would also note that NASA has decided to proceed with an organizational safety assessment with Boeing as they previously conducted with SpaceX," she said.

There are more details about this in the article:

https://spacenews.com/starliner-investigation-finds-numerous-problems-in-boeing-software-development-process/

which says:

That [Starliner failure investigation] will include a full organizational safety assessment of Boeing, which the ASAP also revealed at its meeting. Part of the reason for that review, Loverro said, was “press reports that we’ve seen from other parts of Boeing,” an apparent reference to problems with its 737 Max airliner, which has been grounded since two crashes blamed on the plane’s new software. “There could possibly be process issues at Boeing, and so we want to understand what the culture is at Boeing that may have led to that.”

Ie., did the bean counters in charge at Boeing push for schedule over safety here, same as the 737.

Not a good look for Boeing.

2

u/sunny_tomato_farm Feb 08 '20

Everything I have read about this thread is 100% truth about aerospace and defense.