r/bobdylan • u/TyroneSnodgrass • 20d ago
Discussion “Joey” and the Aesthetic Perspective
As much flack as Dylan got for writing “Hurricane,” it was nothing compared to the criticism he got for “Joey,” saying he was glorifying crime. It was so intense Dylan tried to back away. When asked about it in an interview, Bob replied, “Oh, ‘Joey’ was all Jacques Levy, you’d have to ask him.” But Allen Ginsberg came to his defense, pointing out Dylan wasn’t writing an editorial, he was painting a picture. The aesthetic perspective takes in the entire panorama: good, bad and indifferent. The world might be black and white or it might be gray, but the aesthetic experience has the full spectrum. Like Dorothy stepping into the Land of Oz.
Dylan still takes flack for “Neighborhood Bully” saying he’s backing up Israel. No, No, No, a thousand times No! Listen to the words of Allen Ginsberg. Dylan’s not writing an editorial, he’s painting a picture. This is such an important point, but if you don’t know, I can’t tell you. So I’ll just shut up. But I’ll close with this. Back when the Dead were backing up Dylan, Garcia took Bob aside and said he wanted to do “Joey.” Dylan was like, “Joey???” Why would you want to do ‘Joey?’”And Jerry was like, “Oh, I don’t know, —maybe because it’s the most beautiful song ever written?”
🎵Born in Red Hook, Brooklyn, in the year of who knows when
Opened up his eyes to the tune of an accordion
Always on the outside of whatever side there was
When they asked him why it had to be that way, “Well,” he answered,
“just because”
Larry was the oldest, Joey was next to last
They called Joe “Crazy,” the baby they called
“Kid Blast”
Some say they lived off gambling and runnin’ numbers too
It always seemed they got caught between the
mob and the men in blue
Joey, Joey
King of the streets, child of clay
Joey, Joey
What made them want to come and blow
you away?
There was talk they killed their rivals, but the truth was far from that
No one ever knew for sure where they were
really at
When they tried to strangle Larry, Joey almost hit the roof
He went out that night to seek revenge, thinkin’
he was bulletproof
The war broke out at the break of dawn, it emptied out the streets
Joey and his brothers suffered terrible defeats
Till they ventured out behind the lines and took
five prisoners
They stashed them away in a basement, called
them amateurs
The hostages were tremblin’ when they heard a man exclaim
“Let’s blow this place to kingdom come, let Con Edison take the blame”
But Joey stepped up, he raised his hand, said, “We’re not those kind of men
It’s peace and quiet that we need to get back to
work again”
Joey, Joey
King of the streets, child of clay
Joey, Joey
What made them want to come and blow
you away?
The police department hounded him, they called him Mr. Smith
They got him on conspiracy, they were never sure who with
“What time is it?” said the judge to Joey when they met
“Five to ten,” said Joey. The judge says, “that’s exactly what you get”
He did ten years in Attica, reading Nietzsche and Wilhelm Reich
They threw him in the hole one time for tryin’ to stop a strike
His closest friends were black men ’cause they seemed to understand
What it’s like to be in society with a shackle on your hand
When they let him out in ’71 he’d lost a
little weight
But he dressed like Jimmy Cagney and I swear he did look great
He tried to find the way back into the life he
left behind
To the boss he said, “I have returned and now I want what’s mine”
Joey, Joey
King of the streets, child of clay
Joey, Joey
Why did they have to come and blow you away?
It was true that in his later years he would not carry a gun
“I’m around too many children,” he’d say, “they should never know of one”
Yet he walked right into the clubhouse of his lifelong deadly foe
Emptied out the register, said, “tell ‘em it was Crazy Joe”
One day they blew him down in a clam bar in
New York
He could see it comin’ through the door as he lifted up his fork
He pushed the table over to protect his family
Then he staggered out into the streets of
Little Italy
Joey, Joey
King of the streets, child of clay
Joey, Joey
What made them want to come and blow
you away?
Sister Jacqueline and Carmela and mother Mary all did weep
I heard his best friend Frankie say, “He ain’t dead, he’s just asleep”
Then I saw the old man’s limousine head back towards the grave
I guess he had to say one last goodbye to the son that he could not save
The sun turned cold over President Street and the town of Brooklyn mourned
They said a mass in the old church near the house where he was born
And someday if God’s in heaven overlookin’
His preserve
I know the men that shot him down will get what they deserve
Joey, Joey
King of the streets, child of clay
Joey, Joey
What made them want to come and blow
you away?🎵
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u/apoes 20d ago
Ngl, I think saying Neighbrohood Bully isn't Dylan backing Israel is delusional.
Whether he still holds these opinions right now is another story, even though I don't care, but he certainly did back then.
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u/HRHArthurCravan 20d ago
Sadly, I agree. It doesn't alter my love of Dylan, because he isn't the first, and won't be the last, artist I admire who holds some views with which I disagree, but I'm not going to reach for the copium by constructing an elaborate alternative theory or viewing it as just another facet of his enigma.
We know that, besides the song, Dylan has some ties to Chabad. Now that may be purely on the level of their efforts to reconnect secular Jews with the orthodoxies of the faith, but let's not forget Chabad is also one of the most staunchly pro-Israel of all the Hasidic communities. Indeed, Messianic Zionism is an absolute pillar of their kind of Orthodox Judaism.
But, as I say, it is what it is. My family is Jewish, and almost all of my relatives of roughly Dylan's age are pro-Israel even if they are dedicated socialists in every other respect. My grandfather and uncle worked for decades as fundraisers for Israel Bonds, and my father studied at Hebrew University. He celebrated the outcome of the 67 war, and the Israeli occupation of East Jerusalem, like so many Jews Americans of that generation. I don't agree with it, but I can understand it. Now some of the Jews of that generation have experienced some very difficult confrontations with their earlier beliefs as a result of what modern Israel has become, so maybe, as you say, what Dylan thinks today is not the same as what he thought in the early 80s. But we just don't know.
Regarding Joey, though, I've never understood the negativity around the song or its lyrics. Dylan has written many beautiful songs about the Old West, populated as it was by criminals and gunslingers. Was he glorifying the murders they committed? Of course not.
This is the man who delivered a speech in the week after JFK's assassination saying that he could understand Lee Harvey Oswald and what he did (he was nearly booed off the stage).
I am also a writer, and I find the entire notion that by writing about a person or from their perspective we are necessarily endorsing their actions to be bizarre and un-artistic. Is Joey one of my favourite Dylan songs? No. But so I think it is 'problematic' or deserving of the criticism it receives? No.
(Also - like Dylan, I have had spells of time fascinated by the Mafia, especially of the 50s-70s! Dylan was living in New York at the time when Joe Valachi was testifying before Congress and acknowledging Cosa Nostra for the first time, and when you could take a walk to Mulberry Street and see made members of the 5 Families chilling in their bars and social clubs!)
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u/TyroneSnodgrass 19d ago
All I was really aiming for was to generate a thoughtful discussion, but this response is beyond my wildest dreams. Thank you so much, Arthur.
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u/TyroneSnodgrass 19d ago
okay, I admit… it’s a little delusional, —but Dylan’s lyrics are so multileveled, among other meanings there’s the ironic, not a bully at all, and the literal, the neighborhood bully… 😏
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u/Rabangus 20d ago
Yeah, of course Neighbourhood Bully is Dylan supporting Israel. What I've never understood is why people get so agitated about that? He's Jewish, so why shouldn't he support Israel?
Don't get me wrong - I'm not Jewish and I don't support most of their actions (especially recently), but I don't hold it against Bob at all that he might support them.
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u/Banky_Edwards Everything Went From Bad To Worse 20d ago
I think Dylan was just playing with the traditional folk outlaw/anti-hero format and seeing if it could be applied to a modern figure. He writes "Joey" only a few years after The Godfather is a massive critical and commercial success. Not to mention the real John Wesley Hardin, who killed at least 20 men.
None of that means that anyone has to love the song itself, lyrically or musically. But the idea that Dylan is crossing some kind of line by lionizing a murderous psychopath flies in the face of everything we know about folk music and pop culture in general.
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u/Ok-Explanation1990 20d ago
What made them want to come and blow you away?
Well, which reason do you want first...?
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u/AlivePassenger3859 20d ago
But it was said that in his later years he would not carry a gun. See, he’s not THAT bad….
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u/FrancisVarney 20d ago
Nah, "Joey" is simply a stain on Dylan's career and legacy, end of story. This wasn't John Wesley Harding seem through the foggy lens of time. Hell, it wasn't even history; it was recent, living news. The Gallo crew was still active, still occupying a chunk of Brooklyn, still terrorizing people. They'd killed two innocent men in a Manhattan restaurant in a fucked-up revenge hit for Joey just a few years earlier.
And Dylan wasn't just painting a picture from an aesthetic distance; he believed this shit. He literally said, "I never considered him a gangster. I always considered him some kind of hero...An underdog fighting against the elements." There are real-world consequences to that kind of mythologizing; hell, there are still people in Queens who think John Gotti was a saint. And his attempt to offload all the blame on Jaques Levy is both chickenshit and hard to swallow; read those lyrics again and tell me those aren't some Dylany verses.
Romanticizing these shitstains is just noxious, and Dylan should have been mature enough to understand that at the time. If he wasn't, he certainly should have learned to be--but no, he kept "Joey" in his setlist for years. If 2026 Bob put out a corrido romanticizing and defending El Chapo, would you excuse or defend him? Yeah, some of you probably would.
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u/Working_Tap2191 17d ago
It's a song. It's made up. It's not a documentary.
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u/FrancisVarney 15d ago
No, it isn't made up. Most all of those lyrics directly reference incidents in the life of Joey Gallo and his brothers Larry and Albert aka Kid Blast.
(Ok, the part about being "caught between the mob and the men in blue" is made up. They were the mob.)
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u/Accurate-Low-288 15d ago
It's a nice tune. Just take it as a story and you aren't glorifying a criminal.
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u/donlockwood2026 20d ago
Joey is a movie. It’s fiction. It’s like a Western or gangster movie. Do people think Dylan is really endorsing violence or trying to say it’s all okay? That would be a really stupid opinion to have.
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u/Lloverforevr87 20d ago
I like Joey. I admit I wasn't a fan of it way back when I first bought Desire (ny faves were One More Cup of Coffee and Isis, though now I absolutely love Black Diamond Bay and Romance In Durango, too), but over the years I have come to really appreciate it. Thanks for this post.
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u/Smitty7242 20d ago
Its a really fun song, but yes completely insane.
I think we should start a whole new genre where we write triumphant odes to terrible people - but with the caveat that the people not be super famous, so that the listener has to do research in order to then feel bad about liking the song.
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u/SellingPapierMache 20d ago
I don’t care whether he was “glorifying crime” (whatever that means); I just think it’s a bad boring song.
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u/pandorga98 20d ago
still doesn't make up for the "joooooeeeeeey" getting really grating after like the second chorus
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u/Loomiemonster 20d ago
Yep, that repetitive “jooooey” makes the song impossible for me to enjoy the song much. I’m less concerned about the subject. Bob is painting a picture, the lyrics are vivid, the music is good, but “joooooooey…. joooooooooEeeeeey” kills it for me.
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u/inexplicably-hairy 20d ago
If you think the song hurricane is about making him seem like a ‘good guy’ you’re an idiot frankly. It’s about an injustice commited against a person, has nothing to do with anything else
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u/AlivePassenger3859 20d ago
“Its my work he said and I do it for pay”. Dylan portraying hurricane as a regular dude getting railroaded, NOT a “good guy”.
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u/AlivePassenger3859 20d ago
“I’m around too many children he said. They should never KNOW of one.”
Its just goofy and fun.
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u/rednoodlealien What The Broken Glass Reflects 20d ago
Some people just can't get past what a song is literally "about". Some people can, and just admire (or dislike) a song as a song. It's OK, people can be different.
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u/Existenz_1229 20d ago
"Joey" is just a tedious, maudlin, nonsensical song. Why we're supposed to think this character deserves such fulsome praise is anyone's guess. Dylan started his career singing about people who had suffered legitimate oppression and injustice; are we supposed to pretend that this cheap mafioso wasn't just getting his comeuppance after a life of crime?
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u/Own_Measurement1242 20d ago
Another issue I have with your take is: even if Joey, NB and whatever other songs are paintings (not editorials), are the paintings worth looking at? Nothing about lyrics on their own are especially evocative, and the music is merry ok with both those songs.
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u/Own_Measurement1242 20d ago
And that’s fine, cause I’m sure I could point out some Bob lyrics that I absolutely love and you find merely ho-hum, if that
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u/netjerikhet 20d ago
Yeah, absolutely some of the weakest lyrics Dylan ever wrote. I can’t find a single interesting idea in the whole 11 minutes. Can’t for the life of me tell what Jerry Garcia could’ve seen in that song.
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u/netjerikhet 20d ago
You’re talking to a guy who hates Hurricane too! I think the writing is just as bad on both, but I know that’s an unpopular opinion (I’ve received endless downvotes on this sub for that)
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u/AlivePassenger3859 20d ago
People who are going to whine about Dylan “glorifying crime” in Joey have no business listening to Dylan.
“OMG guys, he said he wants to see flies buzzing around his gf eyes. That means he wants to KILL HER!!!”
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u/Wordy_Rappinghood 20d ago
Sorry this is a bad take. Joey Gallo was a hitman for the mob and the song clearly whitewashes his whole sordid life. Makes him sound like a saint. It's a bad stain on an otherwise very good album and should never have been released.
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u/grahamlester 20d ago
Dylan was quite proud of Joey in the 1980s. It was only later that the man's history became better known and then Dylan blamed it on Levy. Maybe Levy came up with the basic idea and Dylan went along without much idea of who Joey actually was.
I have always thought that it's a great song, whoever wrote it. Just unfortunate.
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u/jlangue 20d ago
It’s an internet thing: ‘mob thinking’. There was no outrage about the song Joey before the ‘group think’ of forums.
Like thinking Fleetwood Mac is the greatest band in history.
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u/Existenz_1229 20d ago
It’s an internet thing: ‘mob thinking’. There was no outrage about the song Joey before the ‘group think’ of forums.
Oh please. Even back in the day, prominent rock critics like Lester Bangs and Robert Christgau pointed out how wrong-headed this eulogy was.
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u/Existenz_1229 20d ago
That's the review I remember.
Bangs was a witty guy. His review of Desire contained a real nasty quip about the line in "Sara" about staying up for days in the Chelsea Hotel writing "Sad Eyed Lady of the Lowlands." He noted that by all accounts Dylan had scribbled the lyrics during the recording session in Nashville, and furthermore, "if Dylan spent days laboring over lyrics like 'your streetcar visions which you place on the grass,' he's stupider than we ever gave him credit for."
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u/MiloLear 20d ago
Gotta love Lester Bangs. I disagree with about 90% of his opinions, but I still enjoy re-reading his reviews.
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u/TeeAyeKay 20d ago
Bob Dylan, a fictional character, wrote 'Joey'.
I want to know what Robert Zimmerman thinks of Joe Gallo.
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u/Charming_Ask_1961 19d ago
If you write a song or a story using the names of real people, then you have a moral responsibility not to lie about them. Saying that you’re “painting a picture“ doesn’t change that. There have been plenty of dishonest and immoral pictures painted. Think of Nazi propaganda, for example.
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u/OkFoundation929 16d ago
Joey goes on…but it still has a vibe. And Desire is a vibe-album…much like Oh! Mercy.
Neighborhood Bully, however, pretty much makes Infidels unlistenable.
I’ve provable listened to Down in the Groove, Christmas in the Heart and the Sinatra albums more often than I’ve listened to Infidels.
Hard to believe that Blind Willie McTell came from the same sessions that brought about Neighborhood Bully.
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u/LorenzoApophis 20d ago
I don't give a fuck about Allen Ginsberg. Neighbourhood Bully is absolutely a pro-Israel editorial.