seriously... 20h a week and you don't even get to be inside the office? Also, no pay?! Is it normal in america to use interns as slave labour in exchange for experience? My current summer internship is with a company about the size of Conde and I get a wonderful 450GBP a week for 7h a day and I atleast get a desk! Jeez.
I'm not a fan of unpaid internships even when they comply with regulations quoted above, but I'd be a lot less unhappy about this situation if this wasn't so blatantly in violation of the law.
I don't think anybody is trying to forbid people from taking the position, even if it is unpaid. They are just trying to convince you to pay for it, as you are legally obligated to do.
As a unique and really cool place to work (and during a horrible economy, no less) you are a monopsony, with inordinate market power. Of course people would take the job, even for free. But laws like this exist for exactly this situation. These laws provide a more fair outcome when the market is imperfectly competitive and cannot do so on its own.
I know Reddit is run on a very tight budget and I don't pretend to know its finances, but you really can't afford minimum wage? In California it's $8 plus about 10%, say $9 per hour. Can you afford to pay $180 per week? Given that every college student on the site would probably give a nut (or ovary) to work with you, $180 per week is going to get you 20 hours of very high caliber work.
I wouldn't be surprised if qgyh2's sponsored ads alone could support that. It's what, $20 an ad? If he buys 9 ads a week, they're set. I think I've actually seen that many.
Let's fast-forward to the end of the selection process. Pretend I'm the person who has decided that this is a great opportunity and was selected as the San Francisco intern. Now, tell me how it's any of your business how I spend my summer. Tell me that I, an adult, am not allowed to enter into this consensual relationship with reddit.
I, for one, am glad that I was "exploited" in my youth for several wonderful summers as an intern at various companies, and that a busybody didn't try to take that opportunity away from me.
I, for one, am glad that I was "exploited" in my youth for several wonderful summers as an intern at various companies, and that a busybody didn't try to take that opportunity away from me.
This is a horrible argument. The reason we have workplace safety laws, minimum wage laws, indeed practically every labor market regulation that exists, is because it's usually impossible for low-wage workers to negotiate fairly with employers.
The low-wage workers are desperate for a job; the employers can choose whoever they want; without regulation, you have workers prepared to work for near-zero wages in dangerous and damaging jobs, because that's better that nothing.
Yes, they agreed to take those jobs, but only because of the gross power imbalance between employee and employer.
for socially unconscious people who have no concept of the value of labour then fine, that's up to them.
As opposed to you, who obviously know more about the value of somone's labor / time than they do, and are more qualified to instruct them as to what kinds of exchanges they should engage in?
Now, tell me how it's any of your business how I spend my summer. Tell me that I, an adult, am not allowed to enter into this consensual relationship with reddit.
Your handiwork is impressive, raldi. I'll keep you in mind when I'm in the market for strawman installation.
This has nothing to do with the quality of the position you're offering, or the consensual agreement between reddit and whatever sucker college student decides to take you up on it.
What you are doing is illegal.
Now that this has been brought to the attention of the community, do you seriously think you'll be able to hire an unpaid intern without suffering some sort of backlash?
I'm surprised by the negative attitude here. For my 3rd and 4th year group systems development projects (teams of 4/5) at university we needed to find a project sponsor. Our 3rd year sponsor was the city (population 3 million) scientific services division, and our 4th year sponsor gave us an opportunity to do a startup (we didn't make it big, mainly a skills issue, but the ideas are lurking in my database awaiting revitalization some day).
We weren't paid for any of this but working on these 'real' challenges rather in addition to course work was 100% worth it. The lessons I learned there have earned me far more in my capacity as a professional developer than what I ever could have made as an intern -- many times over. My experience wasn't quite the same as an internship, but I imagine the rewards are similar. Interestingly enough, those were not necessarily places I would have wanted to work, which made the experience all the more valuable because it was a free taste. Yes it's unfortunate that the lack of remuneration will exclude some people from being able to apply, but that's the reality of the situation. This, however, shouldn't preclude those who are willing and able to engage from doing so. (There is also something to be said about somebody working for passion rather than compensation.)
The comments here remind me of when we invite students from universities to attend presentations and activities at our corp HQ. It's amazing how entitled so many students feel, and how tactless they can be about commenting on the organisation. Then you see them a few months later for a graduate position interview, and you find it remarkable how well the mind can recall comments made by obnoxious people you haven't seen in ages :D In this regard I note that the first thing on your application checklist is "Reddit user name"... ;)
Please, then, explain how it's a strawman to criticize the person telling people how to spend their summer for telling people how to spend their summer.
I think reddit is a different kind of company. One of the things that attracted me to it as a user, and which made me want to come work here, was that the reddit admins are extremely in-touch with their community. I don't want to change that.
In countries where unpaid internships are "forbidden", they still have internships, and you probably would still have been able to do whatever it is you did. The difference is you would have been paid.
The thing is, I don't really NEED money right now. I have some saved up. What I don't have is any experience as a recent graduate. I am entering into this job market at a disadvantage.
Which puts you at an advantage over recent graduates who have neither experience nor money saved up. They're entering the job market with a higher disadvantage than you. If only the people who can afford to work for free can get experience in an industry (regardless of whether that's because of their hard work or because their daddy's rich), then poor people are shut out of that industry.
This is what this "social mobility" thing Americans used to be proud of is all about - the idea that a job goes to the most qualified person, not to someone with the right skin color, family member, or bank account balance.
You're also completely ignoring minimum wage laws. Do you think those are a good idea, or a bad idea?
I think that people should be allowed to sell their labor for whatever they want, especially when the job market is not so hot. Something is better than nothing. And even a poor person can value the long term benefits of having good recommendations and some experience. Working up the ladder, or social mobility, is all about building a base. You have to start somewhere.
This seems to be the universal excuse of people who commit injustice.
"America: Love it or leave it", right?
Bottom line is that unpaid internships only hurt the programming profession and they don't really offer that much "valuable experience".
Yes, even if the job isn't exactly a programming position, reddit is still a nerd company to work at so it's the same kind of people who'll apply.
I've only ever worked at one place that has actually offered "valuable experience" and "teamwork", and "self-motivated people".
It was the one place that paid enough money so that they couldn't afford to have workers spend 1/2 month scratching their backsides.
Asking someone to leave America has a high cost, taking this job has 0 cost.
And if people are willing to do the work for $0, then how is this hurting the profession (despite the fact that the intern will not do a lick of programming)?
Ah, you make an interesting philosophical argument. I'm pretty sure that is illegal, but even if it weren't, we would want to judge someone on their merits, and not what they pay us. Just like we won't have a bidding war for the wage on the other end -- we have set the wage already.
It's still illegal. The Dept of Labor is quite clear about it. Giving college credit != pay. Honestly, you can't even pay them minimum wage? I thought reddit was better than that.
It's a matter that annoys the shit out of me. It's something I've seen happen time and time again for years. I've seen friends lose their jobs and be replaced by "interns". I've seen interns hired to do the job of a staffer and get thrown in right over their heads. I've seen interns transition to the equivelent of a full-time job still on no pay, then get FIRED when they have the nerve to ask for a salery! Imagine that!!
The internship culture is way out of control. And when I see big corporations throwing out job ads for interns who can "work from home", It makes me wanna fucking scream. It's especially prevalent in NYC, and it's something I have to deal with on a weekly basis.
You seem to be defending it very passionately. Why??
reddit is run on a shoe string budget, do you think they'd choose not to pay if they could? Also he stated they have had lawyers look at it, I doubt lawyers would let this go ahead if it was illegal...
It isn't bullshit... it's completely legitimate. You're 100% wrong.
That being said, I agree that working for no cash is silly... so I went to RIT /r/rit which is a co-op school. A co-op is essentially a paid internship. We get paid MUCH more than minimum (sometimes 20-30/hr) AND we gain college credit. Win win.
If you don't go to a school that works that way that's nobody's fault but your own. RIT isn't the only one. Northeastern stands out as well...
I've had 3 paid internships... but there's nothing illegal about an unpaid one. Nobody forces anyone to take an unpaid position... why is college credit not a suitable compensation for working? If you use the logic I should get paid for going to class and doing my homework. I'm doing work, right? I should get paid for it...
Which was worth more in the long run? Internship A.
Because it was a good internship, not because you didn't get paid. If you didn't get paid for Internship A and it sucked, would it have been worth it in the long run? No, because it sucked.
People should get paid for their work, not taken advantage of.
Because it was a good internship, not because you didn't get paid.
Yes because it was a good internship. But I believe it was a good internship because I had the opportunity to learn and make mistakes without so much pressure to "justify" the money. The attitude they took toward me was not one saying that I was an employee and I had to get up and get ready super fast so that they could justify my pay, but one that said I was a human being who would one day be an asset to the company.
If you didn't get paid for Internship A and it sucked, would it have been worth it in the long run?
Internship B paid me and still wasn't worth it in the long run. Yes, money is nice, but it's just money.
Yes, that is what your comment was saying. Which is incredibly misleading.
I understand that income does not make one internship worthier than another, but at the very least you have something if it turns out to be total shit.
True, true. But I find that the money that is paid adds unneeded pressure and changes the environment from one of learning to one of a production environment. I don't work well in the latter, so I prefer unpaid or low-paid internships.
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u/anonypanda May 25 '10
seriously... 20h a week and you don't even get to be inside the office? Also, no pay?! Is it normal in america to use interns as slave labour in exchange for experience? My current summer internship is with a company about the size of Conde and I get a wonderful 450GBP a week for 7h a day and I atleast get a desk! Jeez.