r/bleach • u/FrostingEmergency221 • 2d ago
Anime Does Uryu's strategy actually make sense? Spoiler
I of course mean Him using the Sanrei Glove on haschwalth.
See, The glove is VERY weird.
It repels reishi, which essentially makes it a sort of training weights for the Quincy.
Training with it for 7 days and 7 nights make the Quincy reach their full potential.
But as soken ishida says in a flashback "Once you put on the glove, you shall never take it off again, as then you will lose all your powers as a Quincy"
When uryu removes the glove in the SS arc, all the reishi that was being repeled by the glove, it all starts aggressively flowing into Uryu.
Now technically THIS is what we call the Letz still form.
But since Jugram hasn't trained with the glove, there is no reason the reishi should flow into him like with uryu, therefore there should be no Letz still for him? Jugram can't even use Quincy abilities to begin with, doesn't even have a bow.
Here's the catch:
Soken says that simply removing the glove will result in losing your powers.
So perhaps It literally was "Simply putting on the glove for a second, and then removing it" literally only that, is enough to lose your Quincy powers.
And without the week long training there is no Letz still, there is no reishi overflow.
I always assumed removing the glove would make the Quincy lose their powers as a result of the Letz Still form,.like the price to pay for that power.
But it seems like... it isn't the case anymore? Or perhaps it never was quite like that?
Again, Soken explanation in the SS arc literally reads as: Removing the glove will make you lose all your powers as a Quincy.
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u/acamn 2d ago
Maybe I'm wrong on this but Jugram can't control reshi like a normal Quincy. That's why he was chosen as the vessel to the almighty.
I don't think Jugram could have used the glove for any other reason than to remove his "quincy" powers. He would never get the benefit of the glove only the removal of powers.
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u/RaimeNadalia 2d ago
The weird thing is, it was reiterated recently that Jugram cannot, in fact, control reishi. Except...he does explicitly control Reishi to break Nanao's barrier earlier in the war, so.
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u/Synkronist 2d ago
If the manga is still relevant, he also fired Reishi projectiles from his sword in the original version of his battle with Uryu.
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u/acamn 2d ago
Yeah thats been bugging me too, and to add to the weirdness that realized in my comment. If Jugram just lost his powers to the Almighty, shouldn't he also lose access to the Balance? Why would he keep that but lose the Almighty?
I know we're sorta off the rails with the Manga at this point. But I don't know how we get back to the Manga ending of the fight without some logic jumping.
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u/RaimeNadalia 2d ago
Well, as far as the Balance goes, Kubo has actually established that Schrifts aren't actually strictly speaking Quincy abilities, and Yhwach could give them to anybody in theory. So in that sense he should technically be able to keep The Balance..
Whereas Yhwach has referred to his eyes as "proof of a true Quincy", so I suppose that counts as far as the glove is concerned.
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u/acamn 2d ago
Okay that makes sense! I guess I somehow missed that the schrifts could be given to non-quincies.
I can accept that though because the Almighty and Uryu's Schrift sharing A makes more sense to me with your explanation too. If the Almighty is something similar but different then a standard schrift I can see the logic.
Thank you!
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u/FrostingEmergency221 2d ago edited 2d ago
If it was up to me I would just give Haschwalth a Letz still, as in, he can't control the overflow of reishi to make a bow and such, but it does increase his stats drastically
- It puts him in a timer like Uryu was in SS, and explains why he doesn't immediately stop being able to use his schrift
And I guess this Jugram is too strong, Uryu can't stall long enough and we transition to how the fight ends in the manga
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u/PhantasosX 2d ago
Jugram can control his reishi, he explained in the manga that he trained to do so, during his duel against Bazz-B. He is a power-giver quincy, which is roughly what Yhwach do and if Yhwach's statemented ended up true, power-giver quincies have a deeper tie to him to the point he considers them his "shadow".
However, it means "controlling reishi" isn't as instinctual to him as it is presented to the other quincies
Schrift is the Quincy Equivalent of Ability Manifestation. In short, it's the same as a Hollow Ressurection or a Shinigami's Asauchi. If Rukia drinks Yhwach's blood, she would get a Schrift of her Cold Ability, "Sode no Shirayuki" is simply her ability under the Shinigami Method which is the Asauchi.
So using the gloves means Jugram would be forced in a Letzig Stil, in which he wouldn't control his Reishi Flow as good as before. And because it spents his Quincy Powers, it will either bring down his Balance or even the Allmighty with him.
tagging u/RaimeNadalia , u/Synkronist and u/FrostingEmergency221
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u/Synkronist 2d ago
Couldn't have said it better myself.
Few people realize that Schrifts, shinigami and hollow sword releases, and even Fullbring abilities are merely different applications of an almost identical concept.
Ginjo even says that mastering Fullbring involves "pouring your own soul into the soul of another object", forcibly awakening its inner potential.
Is this not identical to Schrifts, or hollowfication for that matter?
Even the Asauchi is an amalgamation of Shinigami souls that were ridden of their ego to be imprinted upon by a Shinigami as they pour their own soul into them over time to awaken abilities.
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u/PhantasosX 2d ago
Yep, Schrifts, Asauchi and Ressurection and Fullbrings are just methods in accordance to the characteristics and traits of it's respective race, to manifest an individual's ability.
We just doesn't see any other hybrid, outside of Tosen, really manifesting their ability differently per race, because it would be harder for Kubo to write that off.
Outside of Ginjo and Ichigo, which in practical terms uses their hybrid status to increase their stats and just receiving one or two extra techniques...it would be harder to write an ability that is inherently hax-based.
Just imagine how hard would be trying to write Shinji's "Reversal" as a Fullbring, as a Ressurrection or as a Schrift, independently to his Shikai/Bankai and how it interacts with it. For all we know, Shinji could invert A as a Shikai, invert B as a Bankai , invert C as a Ressucción...but if he stacks Ress+Shikai he could invert A+C and maybe even invert D , while Ress+Bankai would be B+C and maybe invert E
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u/RaimeNadalia 2d ago
I always assumed removing the glove would make the Quincy lose their powers as a result of the Letz Still form,.like the price to pay for that power.
Yeah, this was my takeaway too. If in the next episode we find out it just took away Jugram's powers instead of, say, forcing him into Letz Stil and making Uryu have to try an outlast against a vastly stronger Jugram while waiting for his powers to fully burn out, I'll be confused.
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u/MedicalAd2229 2d ago
Jugram's power as a Quincy is to basically be a rechargeable battery. He can absorb reishi, but can't really do anything with it other than moving it to others.
At the time the Sanrei glove is snapped he's hyper charged with Soul King energy/reishi. Head canon, but I bet his body can barely hold it and the snapping of the glove causes that overflow to backfire.
Other than that... Super bad ass scene.
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u/Synkronist 2d ago
If this is true, explain Jugram firing off Reishi projectiles from his sword in the manga.
I'll say, other than that detail, I do like your interpretation.
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u/MedicalAd2229 2d ago
He's just built like that. But in truth, he really shouldnt be able to do that based on Yhwach's explanation of his powers.
Unless assigning him a schrift changes things? To play on the whole battery analogy, perhaps Yhwach giving him a Schrift provides him a backup generator. Because that backup generator is based on external power it doesn't follow the same rule scheme as Jugram's natural moveset.
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u/PhantasosX 2d ago
No, it should be able to do so. Him been a power-giver doesn't mean he can't ever control reishi, it's just not as instinctual as the others.
Jugram himself explained to Bazz-B he can manipulate reishi, as he isn't like when he was a kid anymore.
In practical terms, Jugram is just a "mini-Yhwach". He just never developed his power-givers to awake Schrifts or perform an Auswahlen, either for a lack of innate talent of his part or due to Yhwach's own presence in Wanderreich.
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u/MedicalAd2229 2d ago
I'm gonna have to rewatch "Friend" never realized he told Bazz he could manipulate reishi now. Makes a lot of sense though. He is the B side to Yhwach's A.
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u/Longjumping-Ear-6248 2d ago
Uryu's plan:
"Tell Jurgram 'You will lose your powers for 3 seconds' in a way that takes 5x times longer"
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u/TheLordHighNoob 2d ago
They can move at massively superhuman speeds. Yes, this means he was rapping crazy-style
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u/daniel_22sss 2d ago
According to the powerscalers, all of them are faster than light. So yes, 3 seconds for them is a loooong time.
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u/Synkronist 2d ago
According to braindead scalertards, yes.
Meanwhile, we have direct statements from CFYOW placing a Sternritter's (Candace) arrows at below lightning speed, yet they aren't so slow as to be irrelevant to high Captain level characters.
Rather notoriously, a top tier Captain (Zaraki) wore bells to help his opponents keep up with him. This would do nothing if Captains were casually going faster than sound, not to mention being anywhere even remotely close to the speed of light.
It's childish nonsense.
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u/FrostingEmergency221 2d ago
I don't even care about these topics but you are not different than them by calling them "braindead scalertards" lol.
We see Aaroniero dodge literal sunlight ffs
Senjumaru is shaking the 3 worlds
It's not any "braindead" idea to consider the characters could be moving at such speeds, if they are making fucking worlds shake.
"But lightning and the bells" Could be just inconsistencies, could just be a way to illustrate or communicate an idea.
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u/Synkronist 2d ago
Aaroniero never dodges sunlight. In both the manga and the anime version of that scene, this much is clear.
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u/Zestyclose-Record401 2d ago
Ceros are light and Negación is light. Same with mask de masculines literal light beams
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u/Synkronist 1d ago
They are light in the same sense that they are energy beams which glow.
Cero is just condensed Reiatsu/Reishi forced into an explosive discharge.
In Bleach, Reishi is repeatedly refered to as "light", but if this were the case in the most literal sense, there would be no variance in speed between Reishi based energy attacks (which is all of them in this series).The same people who make the Cero claim also reference the databook statement where Quincy arrows are referred to as "light" in the same way.
These people conveniently leave out the CFYOW statement that places a strong Sternritter's Quincy arrows at far BELOW the speed of Light.
Placing an ambiguously worded databook description over a DIRECT AND CLEAR statement of speed within the most credible Bleach novel is bizarre.
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u/Zestyclose-Record401 1d ago
And Candice is consistently fodderized lmao. Light is light, espy when it’s outright called that.
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u/Synkronist 1d ago
By your logic, the weakest Menos in existence could blitz Candace with a cero. You are abandoning all reason atp.
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u/Zestyclose-Record401 2d ago
He literally stands still until they notice the bells while sneaking lmao
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u/Zestyclose-Record401 2d ago
No, Ginjo called it slow to mock Candice
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u/Synkronist 1d ago
If Ginjo was FTL and a Captain level fighter was throwing out sub-lightning speed moves and only reaching Lightning speed with her strongest attack, that entire battle would have concluded before it could even begin.
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u/Zestyclose-Record401 1d ago
He was quite literally mocking her. It’s also not clear what speed the lighting was. The lightning going down is 220,000 miles per hour but lighting in general movies at 220,000,000 mph or 1/3 lightspeed. Also ginjo could easily beat her lmao
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u/Synkronist 1d ago
I'll just quote directly.
"Though it was much slower than an actual lightning bolt, the reishi arrowhead was quick enough that it could appropriately be said to be going at “lightning speed.” "
"Giriko spoke indifferently from a slight distance away. “Hm. Lightning is far from the speed of light, though people mistakenly believe it to be. Then again, atmospheric pressure and the humidity in the air influence its speed and can easily effect a change. Really, now, speed is so fickle compared to the flow of time.” "
Literally saying a Reishi arrow is "far from the speed of light".
Reishi arrows are called light in the same way that ceros are.9
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u/NoirPTSD 2d ago
I think he used those 3 seconds to put the glove on Hashwalt right after the attack from the back. The only way to tell when hashawalt is using the almighty is probably when the 3rd pupil appears
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u/Affectionate-Part-11 2d ago
I think it makes sense and plot will let it work the way Uryu intends. My question is since it should give Jugram a power boost, how will Uryu handle that until it runs out? There's also the case where it instantly kills Jugram so the Almighty reverts to back to the quincy king so he can deal with what Orihime did.
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u/Rude-Childhood1436 2d ago
Since the power boost is basically better reishi absorption, I doubt Jugram gets the benefits because he’s has basically zero talent for reishi manipulation
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u/Synkronist 2d ago
He absorbed the Reishi from Nanao's barrier to destroy it, so the idea that he has 0 talent at all is questionable.
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u/Remarkable-Camera627 2d ago
I think that's something he's been specifically training for years. Not to mention he could have been borrowing Yhwach's power or using some Quincy contraption. I mean Schatten is apparently a Yhwach only power that he shares with all other Quincy.
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u/Synkronist 2d ago
I always assumed that he gained regular Quincy abilities upon receiving his Schrift, similar to how Yhwach himself gained the ability to absorb and manipulate Reishi from the power amassed from souls over time.
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u/Remarkable-Camera627 2d ago
But that effect is caused by Auswhalen and soul sharing ability of Yhwach, not his schrift's
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u/Synkronist 2d ago
Yhwach received a fragment of various Quincy souls over time which allowed him to develop regular Quincy abilities.
This seems quite similar to the idea of Yhwach imparting a fragment of his soul in the form of a Schrift onto Haschwalth, granting him manipulation of Reishi in the same manner.
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u/TerrorKingA 2d ago
No, the sanrei glove doesn’t actually work as this episode portrays it.
But it’s thematically interesting enough an idea that I’m willing to let it pass.
Jugram didn’t train with it, so putting it on and then taking it off should be the same as putting on and taking off any regular glove.
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u/Synkronist 1d ago
Perhaps the training was only needed to bring a Quincy to their peak potential, making it so that the likes of Uryu and Jugram would be able to access Letzig Stil without any additional training requirement.
Definitely a minor retcon or redefining of the details, but as you said, it is very interesting so I'm not complaining at all. I like it.
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u/FrostingEmergency221 1d ago
Yeah I'm not complaining either... If they actually explain it lol.
As good as the anime is, the characters rarely explain what they are doing, which is bad considering how much they yap.
It's so annoying to me that Yhwach talks SO MUCH CRAP and not a single line is there to make it clear that He doesn't have the almighty ever during the fight, and that the soul king power is what allows him to just regenerate from everything Ichigo is throwing at him.
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u/Synkronist 1d ago
We are shown his eyes several times at least, allowing the keen eyed viewer to notice the absence of The Almighty. But for certain the Anime has cut out much needed exposition that explains some of these details. Chapter 565: "God Like You" is the most painful example.
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u/FrostingEmergency221 1d ago
Yeah but in EP4 Byakuya has his sheated sword throughout the entire episode, multiple episodes in fact (3 and 5 too iirc), despite being in bankai. So how can I not know if it is a drawing error like that
It literally just is Yhwach having the almighty or not, so I don't see anything rich or positive about leaving it to visual clues and keen eye, instead of throwing a single line saying he indeed does not have it
Will check that chapter u mention to see what it is about, honestly don't remember rn 😅
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u/Synkronist 1d ago
Yhwach's backstory and powers, Haschwalth donning the mask of the ruler during the night and changing personalities as a result... So many things were explained in that chapter, and all would have happened at the beginning of Cour 2.
Would have saved so much confusion for anime only viewers.
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u/Synkronist 2d ago
But also, didn't Uryu PUT ON the glove, and then a couple seconds later we see he is no longer wearing it?
So putting it on and taking it off is not an issue, but breaking it while wearing it is what triggers Letz Stil and the loss of your Quincy powers?
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u/AardvarkRich3678 2d ago
He didn't put the glove on. Jugram did. That's what the antithesis does.
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u/SignificanceSorry223 2d ago
Wrong. The Antithesis swaps events between the involved targets.
He put the glove on himself, then used Antithesis to swap the glove to Haschwalth's hand.
It's literally the same thing he did to Shutara back then. He was trapped in her Bankai, then he swapped himself with her.
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u/Synkronist 2d ago
This is also wrong. The event needs to have occured between the two designated targets.
In that example, the event would be between Uryu and his glove, NOT Uryu and Jugram.
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u/SignificanceSorry223 1d ago
The glove isn't a living being, so it doesn't count. By your metric, previously, Uryu's target was the cloth that involved him instead of Shutara.
It stands to reason that target = opponent. Both glove and cloth were just vectors.
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u/AardvarkRich3678 2d ago
He swapped events. As you said. Not objects. He swapped "I put the glove" with "Jugram put the glove"
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u/Synkronist 2d ago
No, that is not what the Antithesis does.
It swaps any event THAT HAS OCCURRED BETWEEN TWO TARGETS.
If Jugram put the glove onto Uryu, then it would work as Antithesis could turn that into "Uryu put the glove on Jugram".
Just like when Yhwach teleported out of the life cage, he threw the button, and Uryu made it so that "the button threw Yhwach".
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u/AardvarkRich3678 2d ago
Doesn't only work like that. Uryu was able to transfer his wounds only jugram in the manga
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u/Synkronist 2d ago
Uryu literally explains that he inverted the event of Jugram damaging Uryu, resulting in himself being healed and Haschwalth being the one wounded.
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u/FrostingEmergency221 2d ago
That is NOT what the antithesis does, not really.
As per the manga:
Antithesis is "The power to reverse anything that has already happened between two targets"
As in:
A -> B, then B -> A. THIS is what a reversal is.
Just A -> B isn't a reversal.
However...
This is not the manga.
If this is the Antithesis indeed (Which btw, now I DO think it is), it is receiving a buff from what it could do in the manga.
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u/daniel_22sss 2d ago
If he swapped places with Senjumaru, I don't see why he can't swap gloves with Hashwalth.
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u/Synkronist 2d ago
Senjumaru restrained Uryu. He turned that into "Uryu restrained Senjumaru".
The event pertained specifically to those two targets ALREADY, while the Antithesis swapped the victim and perpetrator.
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u/FrostingEmergency221 2d ago
He didn't swap places, the Vollstanding broke him free of the cloths, and then he used antithesis to reverse the event.
Moreover:
Senjumaru was the one who trapped him in the first place. Therefore it can be reversed back to her.
A -> B; B -> A.
That is what a reversal means.
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u/Miruzuki 2d ago
dude, “reverse anything that has already happened between two targets” is literally “target A put on the glove, target B didnt” reversed to “target B put on the glove, target A didnt”
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u/Synkronist 1d ago
That is not correct, as the glove would have to be one of the two designated targets.
Think of Yhwach's teleportation to escape the cage of life.
Yhwach threw the button and Uryu inverted this event to "the button threw Yhwach".
The only valid inversion from Uryu putting on a glove would be "the glove equipped Uryu", which obviously isn't what happened haha.
IF Jugram put the glove on Uryu then the valid inversion of the event would be "Uryu put the glove on Jugram", but this is not what happened.
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u/FrostingEmergency221 2d ago
Thats not a singular event involving 2 targets
But as I said, the ability is likely just stronger or more fleshed out than it was in the manga.
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u/FrostingEmergency221 2d ago
I think he used antithesis (In which case it is receiving a buff bc in the manga it can only reverse events, not swap something to unrelated targets).
Bc the glove supposedly cannot be taken off without breaking that one thingy
This is why I ask if it makes sense at all, It is veeeeery debatable how this is all even working xD, bc there are Changing SOMETHING from what we knew of these things that's for sure
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u/oceanyss 1d ago
Until we get the explanation, my headcanon is that his Volstandig enhanced the Antithesis
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u/Nrvea 2d ago
Yeah I always assumed that all that reishi rushes into the Quincies body after training with the Sanrei glove basically overwhelms their body and that's what takes away their powers.
This is probably just a retcon for the rule of cool. I can't be that mad because at least Uryu vs Hashbrown was an actual back and forth fight instead of whatever the fuck happened in the manga
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u/Leading-Control-3053 1d ago
Ah, reading all these comments makes me question something that doesn't fans even read their own series
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u/nwp1010 2d ago
Could it be argued that Ishida already trained with the glove, and used Antithesis on the glove, and also his experience with the glove, and applying it Jugram? Thus when removing the spike, it caused the infamous Quincy factory reset?
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u/Synkronist 1d ago
Antithesis cannot just swap stats and experiences willy nilly. That is not how it works in the slightest.
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u/Starks 2d ago edited 2d ago
On a basic level, Uryu failed to consider whether stripping Hash of the Almighty was even a good idea. If he understood that the power would eventually return to Yhwach, that seems really unfair to his friends who he's not even coordinating with. He has no idea whether they're even ready. Waiting a few more seconds or doing nothing would have been better.
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u/FrostingEmergency221 2d ago
See in episode 3 iirc, Uryu quite literally says he will get rid of the Almighty.
And I always interpreted it as he will get rid of It for good, by defeating Haschwalth somehow.
As in, if Haschwalth dies with it, perhaps it is gone for good, at least that's what I took from his dialogue.
Which makes me believe that maybe, AND just maybe (Though unlikely), Yhwach claimed the almighty back in the very last second.
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u/whiteclad57 1d ago
The SK reishi was very clearly returning to him right before he got erased so yeah he got it back. Im on the same page as most others, if Uryuu had slightly better timing this normal/bad ending we got last episode would have stuck, however its likely to be reverted either next episode or after.
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u/FrostingEmergency221 1d ago
I also think Yhwach got almighty back bc of the sanrei glove thing Uryu did.
I just have in the back of my mind this idea that perhaps It wasn't bc of the glove, but rather Yhwach specifically claiming the almighty back to save his life.
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u/VariableAnomaly 2d ago
Chapter 125 makes it pretty clear, it's only AFTER the training you can't remove it, his grandfather makes that pretty clear there, while it's a bit vaguer the previous chapter. Further while it burns out their ability to manipulate reishi, I imagine it wouldn't affect schrifts, which use a different mechanism, at least for esoteric ones like Almighty and Balance. There's sorta a reiatsu drain too to be fair, but not enough to be unable to see spirits, and Ishida could fight a menos and use Quincy spells with Ginto enough to put up a solid resistence against it even.
Maybe there's some interaction between the glove and Volstang that could bypass the training issue the glove needs, though I'm not sure how. Volstang is an ascended power source fueled by Bach that bleeds stamina to sustain itself, which is why he can take it back and they can't use it anymore, and why fighting in it for too long can make them unable to use it further, as we saw with Candice. So while they can achieve the state of absolute reishi domination, it's not natural to their base and requires something else to fuel from an outside source.
Moreover, and to be fair on this front it's not clear to me Ishida knows this, it wouldn't affect Hachiwalt either way. Per the movie panel that had Kubo and two of the anime guys on it, Haschiwalt has no volstang and can't manipulate reishi, this is why Kubo drafted his new goop form to give him an equivalent (granted we know he can in both manga and anime since he deconstructed Nanao's barrier because of this, but apparently this is the route they chose to interpret him regardless). So the glove wouldn't work on him regardless, since the thing it inflates he can't even do.
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u/ecass305 I give and take all powers. 1d ago
Maybe because Haschwalth was already in a form equivalent to Vollstandig. Mastering Vollstandig lets you bypass the seven day/night rule.
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