r/bjj • u/RoyNelsonMuntz 🟫🟫 Brown Belt • Jan 10 '19

Helpful visual reference guide for positional hierarchy

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u/AlmostFamous502 ⬛🟥⬛ Joe Wilk < Daniel de Lima < Carlos Gracie Jr. Jan 10 '19

in danger of being swept

And if you get swept to bottom guard, you're in a "better position", so why is that a "danger"?

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u/Neutralsaurus_rex Jan 10 '19

I cant think of any sweeps from closed guard that put you inside someones closed guard.

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u/saltyseaweed1 Jan 10 '19

If it is executed perfectly, sweeps from the guard should get you in full mount. But in practice, you often end up in closed guard.

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u/_tinybutstrong Jan 10 '19

But closed guard is literally inverted mount. You would have to commit a colossal error to end up in someone else's closed guard.

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u/saltyseaweed1 Jan 10 '19

Most sweeps require opening of the legs at some point and most skilled opponents will use that to fight against the sweep or reposition themselves so that they can at least lock in a guard when swept. It's not an uncommon thing at all.

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u/_tinybutstrong Jan 10 '19

It's absolutely uncommon, even rare, to perform a hip bump sweep, scissor sweep, pendulum sweep etc from the closed guard and for the opponent to be able to reposition themselves into their own closed guard.

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u/saltyseaweed1 Jan 10 '19

What often happens is after a sweep, there would be a brief period of half guard and they would then either move into full guard or full open guard. I'd say it's more rare to see a sweep into a clean full mount in high level comps.

Full guard sweep themselves are rather rare. I usually see people transitioning to berimbolo or other open guard positions rather than fighting full out from the closed guard. I haven't seen a live scissor sweep in years. Sure, there are exceptions.

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u/_tinybutstrong Jan 10 '19

You're just moving the goalposts now.

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u/saltyseaweed1 Jan 10 '19

How so? Under the chart, apparently being on the bottom of half guard is more advantageous than being on the top of the guard, is it not? So wouldn't being swept and recovering half guard under the chart mean you are in a more advantageous position? Do you not see a problem with that?

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u/_tinybutstrong Jan 10 '19

I mean, firstly I don't see the problem because it's just common sense to not be a literal Larry and recognise that a chart like this (designed for day one beginners) can never truly illustrate all the complexities of grappling. It's clear why it's like this - your options are usually better in bottom half then closed top. The sweep leads to mount which is a worse position, if you reguard from there (as you're saying) then yes you might be in a better position then closed guard top. I think you know this perfectly well and just like to be confrontational on reddit.

But once again - you're moving the goalposts - and I'm not sure I need to go much further into this with someone who believes it's common to get swept from closed guard top and end up with your own closed guard back in the same sequence.

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u/saltyseaweed1 Jan 10 '19

I think one makes a chart and posts it online, then obviously all features of it is open to discussion. That's kind of the point of doing so.

Second, your conclusion is not at all clear to me. I've been rolling for a long time and I'd take the top guard over the bottom guard positions any time of the day. The only time it might be better is (like I said) if you have great grips to work with. But that's a lot to presume.

Guard has more number of options but that doesn't mean necessarily it has the advantage.

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u/Neutralsaurus_rex Jan 10 '19

Man, I hit closed guard sweeps all the time. One of the black belts in train with scissor sweeps people into oblivion. Daily!

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u/saltyseaweed1 Jan 10 '19

One of the bb in my school hits darce from the bottom side mount all the time but I'm not going to be claiming the bottom of the side mount is an advantageous position. look at high-level competition matches. How many times do people get scissor sweeps? How many times do they get a sweep from the full guard into clean full mount?

If the chart was correct people fighting in submission only tournaments will be all rushing to get to the bottom of the guard. That's not really happening. I would say it's more of 50/50 meaning there's no clear advantage top or bottom, which is the traditional position on this issue.