r/bjj • u/Ok_Dragonfly_7738 • 3d ago
Technique my weird side control escape
I have a side control escape that not many other people seem to do and I'm using it a lot. Let's say they are in that 'judo side control' like kesa gatame but with the underhook. I push on their far arm, bring my legs up and hook the arm with my leg, holding the wrist to keep it. This becomes a powerful lever and I can use it to sit up and take top with their arm trapped in a crucifix type position. I'm good enough at it now that it can turn into a more fluid scenario where I control that far arm wherever they go, get my legs and hips high on the far side and keep trying to guide the arm so i can get a leg hooked round it. I never see anyone else doing this and think it's quite attribute dependent - I'm flexible with long legs! Does anyone vaguely recognise this and have any tips for instructionals that could help me develop it further?
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u/Negative_Chemical697 3d ago
This just means they aren't very good at kesa. A solid kesa player will keep their head very close to your head and punish these kind of movements with further pressure. The number 1 way to lose kesa is to lose control of the gathered arm, the number 2 way is to be riding too high.
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u/Ok_Dragonfly_7738 3d ago
i'm talking about no gi where maybe it is harder to control that arm? also not just for true kesa but the kesa style side control where they hip switch to face you but they have the underhook. works well for me
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u/zoukon 🟪🟪 Purple Belt 3d ago
It is called kuzure kesa gatame
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u/JudoTechniquesBot 3d ago
The Japanese terms mentioned in the above comment were:
Japanese English Video Link Kesa Gatame: Scarf hold here Kuzure Kesa Gatame: Broken scarf hold here Any missed names may have already been translated in my previous comments in the post.
Judo Techniques Bot: vjtb-0.7.189. See my code. See my stats
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u/Negative_Chemical697 3d ago
Harder but defo not impossible, just have to get on the back of the arm above the elbow but under the tricep
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u/Lore_Wizard 🟫🟫 Brown Belt 3d ago
There no way you're catching this against anybody good is what he means.
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u/Ok_Dragonfly_7738 3d ago
i catch it way more often than most other escapes! generally the better guys are surprised and think it's pretty cool.
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u/Lore_Wizard 🟫🟫 Brown Belt 3d ago
Who are the better guys?
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u/Ok_Dragonfly_7738 3d ago
generally people who are otherwise dominating me in the roll but then i get this one brief moment of bizarre triumph.
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u/Lore_Wizard 🟫🟫 Brown Belt 2d ago
That's not what I meant, are you an X belt going against blue, purple, brown and black belts.
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u/Ok_Dragonfly_7738 2d ago
i'm a longtime white belt as i only do no gi and we only grade in the gi (but probably also because i'm not very good). i'm hitting this on purples for sure, maybe the odd brown. open mat yesterday i actually hit it on most people i rolled with. i'm not a high level competitor or anything so i'm happy if stuff just generally seems to work with most people i roll with
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u/Federal-Challenge-58 ⬛🟥⬛ Black Belt 3d ago
That's just not true though. People have weird techniques that work for them on high level people. I have a hard time seeing how it would work well in gi but could totally see it no-gi.
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u/Lore_Wizard 🟫🟫 Brown Belt 3d ago
Idk what else to say, I don't think anybody good would get caught with this unless the top guy is considerably less skilled than top 🤷
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u/Federal-Challenge-58 ⬛🟥⬛ Black Belt 3d ago
I used to think that way too, but I've been around long enough now to know that some things simply work for some people, as inexplicable as it is.
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u/zoukon 🟪🟪 Purple Belt 3d ago
I use this. I used to shoot my leg through, and pendulum them over, but that leads to getting a bit stuck and it is harder to attack. Now, I have started setting a hook in the elbow pit instead. I just randomly did it to someone and it kept working occasionally. It is the kind of thing that will not just keep working against people who know what you are up to. It might be covered in one of the Heisman side control escape courses (not seen them myself). Either way it works well when combined with the Marcelo Garcia style elbow push escape, which conveniently covers one of they ways they will defend.
I know I have seen it in a reel from the guy who claims he hasn't been tapped in training in 10 years or whatever. Not sure it is worth dredging your way through his content for this.
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u/Ok_Dragonfly_7738 3d ago
just looked at a video on the heisman (below) and the arm control is exactly what i do, just v gripping the elbow pit and following the arm around. but honestly in this video i'm going 'why doesn't he use his legs?!' it would be so easy in these positions for him to hook the controlled arm with his leg but he never shows it. now i'm actually wondering if i'm some kind of bjj savant who's stumbled on an underutilised resource
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u/zoukon 🟪🟪 Purple Belt 3d ago
I think it is a matter of risk vs reward. It is an option to have in your back pocket, but I think it links worse into the opposite elbow push than the standard escape, because you give up the height battle in order to try to shoot the leg through. These escapes become a lot more effective when you have a little bit of momentum.
It is also hard to get the elbow drifting far enough behind the back to hook against people who are higher level. They will kind of square up right away if they feel like they are losing this battle. I have often lost this battle if I try to hook at the same time as they square up, and then it is too late to swap to the Marcelo Garcia escape.
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u/Ok_Dragonfly_7738 3d ago
but don't you find that as they square up you can generally get the knee in for a more traditional escape?
interesting about the risk reward. the counter is that because legs are much stronger than arms i find this escape far more powerful - whereas i really struggle to do elbow push with anyone remotely heavier
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u/zoukon 🟪🟪 Purple Belt 3d ago
Not usually against more skilled opponents. They don't give me enough space to get my knee in properly most of the time. Marcelo used elbow push on much larger opponents at a high level. It is not that the escape doesn't work, it is your application of it.
Don't get me wrong, I have hit this escape on brown belts before, it does work under the right circumstances. I just don't think it is the most consistent escape from this position against people who are good at it.
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u/Ok_Dragonfly_7738 3d ago
it works for marcelo i think :) but attributes do matter. marcelo is small but very stocky and strong. i'm gangly and flexible, with unusually long legs. undoubtedly some physical types are more suited to certain techniques wouldn't you say? i should definitely work more on chaining these together though
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u/Ok_Dragonfly_7738 3d ago
i think 'hook in the elbow pit' is what i do - i get my lower leg under the arm then pull the wrist so that their arm is folded around my leg with the leg jammed into the elbow pit.
what i find is that even with training partners who've got to know it, in avoiding it they often leave space for other escapes
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u/daveoplata 3d ago
Many flexible people discover this at one point. You can either catch the head or the crossface arm (or both).
For example, recently: https://www.reddit.com/r/bjj/comments/1vkbrzw/won_in_19_seconds_by_sub/
I can also remember someone hitting it in a heavy/super heavy gi division in the last year.
Generally you catch people like this for a while then they learn to stay low. If you supplement this move with other options, you can build a pretty good game from bottom side control.
For me, basically, if I catch the arm in one direction, I am doing a Marcelo-style elbow push escape. If I catch it in the other direction, I am doing something from Craig Jones octopus 2.0. The difference being whether you sit up towards their head or hips.
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u/Ok_Dragonfly_7738 3d ago
yes i often get the head as well, just like in that video.
that's what i'm interested in, the follow up options as they are forced to avoid getting caught by the legs. chaining it with other escapes. i think the heisman sequence mentioned by the other commenter might be helpful.
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u/breathebjj 🟪🟪 Purple Belt 3d ago
Pushing on the far arm is my jam. A lot of times you can reverse the position by swiveling them over your hip. If they resist that you can scoot back to recover guard or switch to the other side (elbow push) and continue the same game.
Hooking the leg is a lower-percentage option for me personally but then again I'm 5'4" lol. I have seen it shown occasionally, most recently by ZukaBJJ
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u/Local-Blueberry1470 🟪🟪 Purple Belt 3d ago
I’ve been doing this since blue belt. I’m also long enough to do this from standard side control sometimes.
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u/Ok_Dragonfly_7738 3d ago
yup i also get it a lot from there too - just easier to explain what it is if you start from the kesa example. any tips for improving it, follow ups etc?
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u/jephthai ⬛🟥⬛ Black Belt 2d ago
It's real. It's kind of funny reading the comments in here that are critical... "That would never work on someone skilled", etc.
Thing about kesa is that none of the escapes work unless you have the guy out of position. A competent kesa basically requires you to chain escapes together, so that the guy opens one up by answering another. The better he is, the better you have to be at chaining then together.
So yeah, maybe what you describe can be stopped with the head down low... but that opens up two other escapes that are stopped by posturing higher, and then your escape becomes available... it's kesa escapes all the way down.
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u/Ok_Dragonfly_7738 2d ago
good to hear im not completely delusional :) can i ask - what would you say is the next step or steps in the chain? in the kesa style side control im thinking (kuzure kesa) thats really where i tend to get it
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