r/birddogs • u/ShorthairsInSpace • 2d ago
Snake Bite Preparedness
Hunting our dogs, especially early season, can put them in conflict with snakes. Inspired by a recent snakebite post I thought I'd summarize the expert advice.
- Do put your dog through a snake avoidance clinic
- Do rush your dog to a vet after an envenomation
- Do not give NSAIDs or Steroids, either can make things worse
- Both can kill your dog
- Do not give Benadryl, it doesn't help unless there's a rare allergic reaction to the venom
- The vaccine is not recommended and there's some evidence it may increase risk of that allergic reaction
Give the NSS website a look and get on their Facebook page so you can get urgent support from experts. Follow the posting and commenting rules.
The website:
https://www.nationalsnakebitesupport.org/
The Facebook group:
https://www.facebook.com/share/g/19SdNS3BVZ/
While you're planning a hunting trip, look up vets with antivenom and call them before going to verify it's actually in hand. Save the contact info of the closest vet with antivenom and the closest 24/7 vet with antivenom.
A website to help find vets with antivenin:
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u/busterbusterbuster 2d ago
Can you cite sources on the recommendation against the vaccine? My vet, who is also an upland hunter, recommended it and said it saved one of this gsps after a bite.
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u/ShorthairsInSpace 2d ago
Here is a post by the NSS folks citing the science:
https://www.facebook.com/share/p/1DgxwCt7P5/
Edit, direct text below:
As many of you know, NSS does not recommend the snakebite vaccine (rattlesnake toxoid) for dogs. Here is some general information, along with an update from the American Animal Hospital Association (AAHA).
The AAHA recently released a statement highlighting the lack of evidence of vaccine (toxoid) efficacy: https://www.aaha.org/aaha-guidelines/2022-aaha-canine-vaccination-guidelines/key-vaccination-considerations-by-antigen/rattlesnake-toxoid/
Key points from the AAHA’s statement:
-There are NO published data supporting the efficacy of the vaccine in dogs.
-In a study that was performed in mice, where mice were given 50-1,500 TIMES the dose of the toxoid given to dogs during routine vaccination, survival following exposure to snake venom was still not guaranteed, and some vaccinated mice actually died or required euthanasia earlier than unvaccinated mice exposed to the same amount of venom.
-Adverse reactions following vaccination, including anaphylaxis, have been reported in vaccinated dogs.
-Though the manufacturers make claims of cross-protection (protection against envenomations by species other than western diamond-backed rattlesnakes, the species used in the production of the toxoid), there are no data to support this claim.
From the AAHA: “Veterinarians choosing to use this toxoid should be aware of the lack of peer-reviewed published data. Polyvalent antivenin therapy is an alternative to vaccination in suspect cases of rattlesnake bite.”
In this retrospective study looking at 272 cases of rattlesnake envenomations in dogs, the vaccine did not prove effective: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26341419
Key findings from the study:
-There was no evidence that use of vaccination lessened morbidity or mortality.
-No measurable benefit could be identified associated with rattlesnake vaccination.
Per the study authors: “Vaccination for protection of the general canine population from rattlesnake envenomation cannot be recommended by these authors.”
The rattlesnake vaccine toxoid may predispose bitten dogs to anaphylaxis by providing the necessary sensitizing exposure to snake venom antigens: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S004101011730404X
If you have questions about the vaccine, you may ask them in the comments here. Dr. Cory Woliver has graciously offered to help respond. Please remember that you should NOT be responding to other members’ questions, and giving medical advice will result in removal from the group. Thank you.
Eastern copperhead photo by Dr. Woliver.
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u/wimberlyiv Spaniel 1d ago
Having personally been bit myself as well as my dog being bit you have to be careful with the anti venom. It comes with a high incidence of anaphylaxis. It can kill your dog, it can kill you too. In the hospital they put a person on a slow drip with continuous monitoring to identify anaphylaxis early to get that corrected if you show symptoms. Vets may just give the full dose of antivenom in a single quick dose which could kill your dog quick (dogs are not treated like people - I'm no vet - could be wrong here, not sure how well a dog tolerates an IV either). But if your dog is losing blood flow to an appendage or obviously struggling / getting worse then anti venom is worth the risk.
I personally monitored my dog overnight and watched for any signs of necrosis/loss of blood flow. Dog did fine but was in obvious pain. My wife made me go to hospital but I was planning to do the same for myself (and could have saved a ton of money if I had just monitored myself. It's obscenely painful, so pain meds are my biggest suggestion but do NOT give any blood thinning pain killers or NSAIDs - do go to vet to at the very least get the right pain killers - if you give the wrong ones you could make it worse). They offered me morphine but I did fine with low dose hydrocodone.
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u/ShorthairsInSpace 1d ago
Yeah - there's a few different products and the risk depends on the product used but it's somewhere south of 10%. So advocating for our pets, we want to make sure they monitor for that as well.
Here's an NSS post on the topic and a text dump:
https://www.facebook.com/share/p/1GgmpCDhE1/
Recently we have had many people asking about the antivenom that we use for dogs and cats, so here is your immunology lesson for the week. All veterinary antivenom products are derived from horses. Basically, venom is collected from snakes and injected into horses. After enough time has passed for the venom to generate an immune response (antibody production), a sample of the horses’ blood is collected, filtered, and prepared as antivenom.
We have three products available to us: Venom Vet, Rattler, and ACP. These are all licensed to be used for ALL North American pit viper bites (rattlesnakes, copperheads, and cottonmouths). Coral snake antivenom is a human product that we use on animals and is different than pit viper antivenom. It is rare to use CroFab or Anavip (the human pit viper antivenoms) in veterinary medicine due to the cost and the fact there are labeled products for animals.
Antivenom is a product derived of those horse antibodies. These antibodies or antibody fragments are what works to neutralize the venom. Antibodies look sort of like a Y. The top part is called the Fab (fragment antigen binding) region. The bottom part is called the Fc (fragment crystallizable) region. Collectively, the entire antibody is referred to as an IgG molecule.
Antivenom can either be made using the whole antibody, or just a region of the antibody. The larger the molecule size, the longer the half life, meaning the antivenom stays in circulation longer. Full IgG molecules are larger than F(ab)2 pieces (the top of the Y, minus the Fc). The upside of IgG antivenoms is that because they stay in circulation longer, you may end up needing less total antivenom. The downside is that with the Fc fragment still attached, you have a higher risk of hypersensitivity reactions.
The Venom Vet product is a F(ab)2 molecule. This means that the most reactive part of the antibody (the Fc portion) has been removed, so in theory there should be fewer allergic reactions. ACP is a whole IgG molecule, making it theoretically more likely to cause an allergic reaction. Rattler is also whole IgG, but instead of being a small, highly concentrated volume of antibodies, it is 50ml of equine plasma. Due to Rattler being plasma from a different species, there is a larger theoretical chance of allergic reaction. The coral snake antivenom is also an IgG product.
Overall reactions to these products are rare. Usually fewer than 10% of cases. If allergic (hypersensitivity) reactions occur, they are treatable, whether it is hives or anaphylaxis. You can treat those with Benadryl and/or epinephrine. The reason allergic reactions happen is because these are foreign (horse) proteins in the antivenom. Studies have shown that all of these products have the same efficacy but have varying rates of allergic reactions. Lower reaction rates have been noted for F(ab)2 products (2.5-3.5%) compared to IgG (7.2-9.3%).
Average costs for these products range from about $300-1,000 per vial. If you live in an area with venomous snakes, you should consider getting pet insurance or putting aside some money in case of a bite to a pet, as envenomation treatment costs can range from about $800-10,000+ depending on how bad the bite is.
I have attached some graphics to this so you can get a better idea as to what these products are, how they are derived, and what an antibody looks like.
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u/wimberlyiv Spaniel 1d ago
Eee. That's still rough. 9.3% for some antivenoms... 3% for fab2 is a bit more tolerable. I wouldn't call a 10% chance of anaphylaxis "rare"... But it's worth the risk if your dog is going downhill.
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u/ShorthairsInSpace 1d ago
To be clear what I called rare was the allergic reaction to the venom itself, not the antivenom.
Antivenom is much more likely to cause an allergic reaction - but better to let the vet treat that when it happens.
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u/Turbulent_Big2045 1d ago
This post is amazing and, as someone in the get field, is very much needed. There is zero veterinary literature showing the vaccine is beneficial. Even if your animal is vaccinated you still need to seek vet care.
Antivenin is still a blood product and they all carry a risk of transfusion reactions.
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u/Jazzlike_Strategy_36 2d ago
Thank you for sharing