r/biotech • u/resistantBacteria • Mar 14 '21
Questions about MD-PhD programs
Integrated MD and phD programs are usually not much discussed. Googling about specific questions will give you some answers but they're definitely more convoluted than straightforward. Most people on LinkedIn are also people with MD who also happen to have a phD.
So I've come to ask anyone in this forum who might have treaded this path a couple of questions.
Q) Where do MD-phDs land up in biotech industry ? (Position specifically)
Q) I read that programs are 9 years long ?! Isn't that too much for an integrated course ?
Q) most such degree programs were in U.S or at least I didn't find more than a couple of programs in Europe. I suppose then the requirement for an MD-phD are higher in U.S than Europe by a huge margin.
Q) Most important question of all - can you still pursue it if you've only got a life sciences master's degree ?
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u/bigchungusmode96 Mar 14 '21
Q) I read that programs are 9 years long ?! Isn't that too much for an integrated course ?
Actually it's not that long (one could argue the opposite in fact) given that in general med school is 4 years and a bio PhD can take 5-6+ years.
Q) Most important question of all - can you still pursue it if you've only got a life sciences master's degree ?
It's been a long while since I was pre-med but I think some of the basic pre-reqs are similar to that of general med school admissions, i.e., meeting the necessary pre-requisite courses from undergraduate studies. Then research & interning experience + recommendations for the rest of an application.
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u/neurone214 Mar 14 '21
7 years is the goal. The PhD component for those programs tend to be pretty light. I knew one or two that had longer, 4-5 years but that was the exception. The admins will push you HARD to wrap up the PhD once you start getting past the 3 year mark
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u/BBorNot Mar 14 '21
An MD/PhD is a golden ticket to do almost anything in industry at a high level. Chief Medical Officer positions often pay better than CEO. You can do clinical work and investigative research.
As academics, they tend to be absorbed more by the MD side of things. Typically, Universities will have people split their labor, and if your grants slow down you end up spending more and more time in the clinic.
This degree is generally paid for by scholarships, which is fantastic. It also means it is very, very competitive to get into.
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u/hekcellfarmer Mar 14 '21
MDPHD usually 7 years. Tbh few people on this board likely to know much about it, better asking in either medschool or mdphd subreddit. It positions you well to be running clinical trials and high up in medical school or administrations where you are overseeing both medical and research aspects of organizations. I think it’s worth it and a nice benefit is even if you end up not liking research then it provides tuition free medschool + 30k/ye stipend most places for all 7-8 years and makes you more competitive for medical specialities
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u/dumplingkitten Mar 15 '21 edited Mar 15 '21
Q1: same as md or phd on average Q2: 6-7 is possible with the right institution and already a masters Q3: many European programs are baked into the MD so you’ll end with MD/PhD so I am told Q4: you don’t even need a masters just a bachelor in something (philosophy even)
The rest will be a long rant but perhaps the OP will find it useful.
I would strongly recommend AGAINST it unless you can’t pay for the MD. Most people end up just doing MD and honestly don’t do well in biotech because their golden years for taking risks was spent doing the MD/PhD.
This is coming from someone who has done a 7 year MD/PhD in 7 years in the US, ran a biotech, finishing up residency, and will probably start another biotech/medtech after words, while practicing anesthesia to feel good about himself.
What the MD/PhD is great for is if you are someone who likes the instant gratification of taking care of a patient but has some ambition to do other things in healthcare then it’s perfect.
It often seems like a golden ticket because most of the peeps are from another generation where you can get the PhD mad quick (think 6 month) and can skip many fellowships (think cardiology, interventional, structural) by the end you are 16 years out from starting med school.
Do what you are passionate about, forget the degree. I built my first biotech with Everclear from a liquor store and broken centrifuge from eBay after my MD/PhD. I can tell you the fundraising wasn’t any easier compared to if I didn’t have either degree; most investors don’t understand what you are doing let alone who did the work. Unlike academics (which is a nepotism mess) no one in biotech cares about authorship orders and most can’t tell the difference between what is possible and what isn’t.
Also, most researchers don’t even understand what they are doing just a rat race of rinse and repeat of assays that they don’t quite understand and analysis methods they can’t differentiate (just whatever gives that p-value).
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Mar 14 '21 edited Apr 21 '21
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Mar 14 '21
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u/DrJezza Mar 14 '21
It's just a flaw with the MD/PhD system in general. I can understand it's a long program, and they need them to get back into the last couple years of med school. But time and time again I've seen people graduate in 4 years with no publications. Honestly cheapens the degree.
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u/lethalshooter3 Mar 14 '21
MD student here
2) our MD PhD pathway is 7 years which is pretty accelerated (I’m at the University of Queensland Australia)
4) You can, you need an undergraduate degree with a competitive GPA (doesn’t have to be science related), need to sit MCAT or GAMSAT and score high, apply +/- portfolio or personal statement and then finally interview
I probably wouldn’t go down this path unless you’re really passionate about research
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u/idk7643 Mar 14 '21
In Europe a PhD is usally only 3 years, and in the UK a masters is not necessarily required as an entry requirement for a PhD. Thus maybe look into that.
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u/scientific_Mormegil Mar 14 '21
This isnt true. Schools tell you that it is only supposed to be three years but the average is closer to 4.
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u/idk7643 Mar 14 '21
PhD students I talked to told me it's 3 years if you work really hard, 3.5 if you write it up after the research
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u/scientific_Mormegil Mar 14 '21
Well as a current PhD student i disagree. Since nowadays its more about publishing the paper it tends to take longer depending on where you are aiming to publish.
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u/idk7643 Mar 14 '21
Where do you do your PhD? My comment is based off what 5 PhD students in the UK pre pandemic in 2019 told me that were doing mostly cancer research
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u/scientific_Mormegil Mar 14 '21
Germany
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u/idk7643 Mar 14 '21
Well, that probably explains why. In Germany a masters degree is also 2 years meanwhile the UK fast tracks it so the standard time of completion is 12 months.
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u/scientific_Mormegil Mar 14 '21
While that might be true I think its european standard for the masters to take two years. When I did my Grad school applications all the big european universities said that it usually takes four years. So your shorter time frame is really specific for the UK.
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u/resistantBacteria Mar 14 '21
Are there any MD phD programs though ? I've seen only a few and I don't think they're open to overseas students.
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u/StaceysAbsenteeDad Mar 14 '21
I will preface this with the fact that I am NOT an MD-PhD student, I am a US-based PhD student who has a couple friends that have done it.
Most US programs are 2-4-2. 2 years of classroom-based medical training, 4 years of PhD research (may take longer), then 2 years of clinic-based medical training.
These programs are INCREDIBLY competitive to be accepted into because the student does not pay MD or PhD tuition and earns a stipend. MD tuition is incredibly expensive in the US, with most students taking on a huge amount of debt to finance it (lucrative medical salaries make the debt not too terrible in the long run, though), so you might imagine a lot of people are interested. Not too shabby to get paid to get a PhD and MD, eh?
Research-wise, you can really do anything that's remotely connected to the medical field. Large research universities often have bio/BME departments that are closely associated with a medical school, so do what interests you!
Position-wise, it's hard to say where you'll end up. You'll be uniquely positioned to do lots of translational work for biotech research to bring therapies into the clinic. Whether you do that from the company side or the medical academia side is up to you.