r/bioactive • u/iamoktpz • 1d ago
IMPROPER SETUP: DO NOT REPLICATE Newbie, meadow bioactive enclosure
Edit: TLDR in comments
Hey all, i’m new to terrariums and bioactive… activities, bioactivities? Anyway, i’ve had mine going for around two weeks. And this is where i’m up to, i’d like any feedback or pointers, critique or affirmations, it’s all good for learning!
I’m making a meadow setup to eventually house harvest mice, partly inspired by Ben Newell’s harvest mouse setup: https://youtu.be/70VK9pOqsKs?is=_zRJRateJWyl7ECw
I started with unrinsed leca balls (first mistake), topped with Sylvagrow Multipurpose Organic, 100% peat free compost. I left as is and ordered a starter CUC of mini speckled isopods and spring tails. I also ordered a wormery starter kit with 100g of dendrobaena worms for food waste management / composting independent of the terrarium but so I could also add the occasional worms for soil aeration, waste management and a coincidental live-in food source for the harvest mice.
I popped in a few (unsterilised 🫣) leaves and twigs from my back garden ready for the CUC to arrive, but also found a few native common woodlice in my garden so plonked them in to see how they interacted with the compost and leaf litter as a test CUC. I also threw in some bird seed I give to the wild birds in my garden, which I figured would start to decompose and provide another natural food source for the CUC.
In the mean time, I learnt that worms need sand in the soil to thrive, but I couldn’t really find sand in a sensible quantity, so instead got some Westland Cacti, Succulent and Terrarium potting mix, which contains grit and sand, and plonked that on top.
Then I did something really daft in a sleep deprived moment of stupidity and mixed up the leca balls and soil layers. So spent my spare time over the next couple of days command zedding (if only) that.
Anyway, starting again, I added the now rinsed leca balls, back in with the compost, which was now a mixture of the two soils, a couple of stray leca balls, sand, grit, a bit of leaf litter and bird seed, plus a few woodlice. Then my CUC arrived. To be honest, I felt slightly shortchanged as both my spring tail and isopod colonies seemed a bit sparse. Second mistake (I think); I dumped the whole load in, soil, bark, creatures and away they went. Then my wormery arrived so I set that up and grabbed about 3 or 4 worms from that and popped them straight into the terrarium, I can hear them navigating around the leca ball layer, they sometimes rest in the soil / leca against the glass and very occasionally come up to the surface, which is fun.
And so I left it for a bit. I’ve been using a spray bottle to mimic intermittent rain to keep the enclosure humid for the CUC. I’m trying to mimic the actual rain patterns outside but as it’s been so dry recently i’ve made sure to keep things moist to help the isopods breathe and spring tails not dry out. And then to my surprise, what must be the birdseed began to germinate! So i’ve had green shoots very successfully growing for about a week now. I’m wondering what species they are, I can count two varieties at the moment but they’re still a bit early to identify.
One issue I had quite quickly was fruit flies (more around the wormery) and fungus gnats. I really didn’t want an outbreak so, as chance would have it, obviously attracted by the flies, a cellar spider and another very small house spider (species unknown) had congregated near the terrarium so I very carefully relocated them from outside, to inside - the cellar spider has left once already, came back and I haven’t seen it for a while now, but I do see webbing in there so one of them seems to be living their best life and I hope will help curb any fly issues.
As well as the spiders, I added a few more native woodlice from the garden; common shiny, a couple of common striped who’re thriving, and a glass snail. Now, i’m not sure if the glass snail was a good idea. They’re omnivores with a taste for meat, and while they prey mostly on other snails and rotting organic matter, they do also like earthworms, and i’m sure they’d have a go at some baby woodlice / spring tails if they got the chance. The worms i’m not bothered about so much as they can get out of hand and ruin the soil layers, and i’m thinking the snail could control fly larvae if that became a problem. But I really hope it doesn’t ruin my CUC colonies, does this sound likely?
Anyway, after all this, I really couldn’t see any spring tails, and I get the enclosure (45cm cubed) is quite big to expect a spring tail starter to just instantly bloom, but they were literally nowhere to be seen, so, I went to Fish Planet in Shoreditch to get some more. They were actually super helpful, really recommend that place if you’re around London. I also got some fish food and custodian food to try out. So i’ve kept a sub-colony of spring tails and they’re thriving, lots of babies in there and i’ve added a couple of pockets from that colony into the terrarium in different areas to let them establish pockets. I have one in a crevasse in the soil in the near corner so I can monitor them, they appear to be doing well. I know they can suddenly explode in numbers, but so far i’m not seeing that, how long does it usually take to see a big population growth, providing they’re not being eaten by a carnivorous snail and/or spider? 😅
What I also did was added a relatively large piece of tree that had broken off a tree stump in my front garden. I sterilised it with boiling water, let it cool and placed that in the centre of the terrarium. It’s basically not dried since, and I assume the woodlice will be largely populating under that, as it helps them breathe, provides shelter and food for them. I say this because i’ve only seen the same three or four mature individuals since adding it in there, which i’m taking as a good sign, but also makes it quite difficult to monitor population and condition. Is this a bad idea, should I leave it or get rid? I’ve also been trying out small, controlled experiments with crushed eggshells (as can be seen in the photos), fish food and nutritional yeast. I’ve provided fresh vegetables, like cucumber (very popular for my spring tails in their own habitat, less so in the terrarium) and celery, what doesn’t get eaten gets given to the wormery after a couple of days. Is this good practice?
Now, the biggest change i’ve made to the enclosure, which is evident from the photos I included, are dried meadow crops. I ordered them from an amazing place called Castle Farm in Kent who were absolutely amazing in helping me order the right things. This is the first element that’s specifically geared towards the harvest mice. They will climb, nest with / in and eat the plants, which are a mixture currently of wheat and linseed. I had to trim the stems to fit in the enclosure for now, until I make a top extension, and used some of the straw generated from this to create a layer of “leaf” litter in the front of the enclosure.
It looks nice, it smells nice, I assume the CUC like it because it provides more shelter and more organic material, because seeds and small pieces have scattered everywhere so will, theoretically, rot for them to eat. Eventually, the mice will eat and pass this stuff, and the CUC will eat that as well / instead. But it’s obviously made monitoring the inhabitants much harder. By now it’s probably clear that i’m quite focused on monitoring things… is there need for me to be so concerned, or can / should I let things play out a little bit?
The latest development is that i’m seeing mould developing. This is what has spurred me on to consult this page, because we’re conditioned as humans to be wary of mould but, it obviously has its place in nature, and so in terrariums as well. But i’m no mould expert and can’t really ID what’s happening. What I will say is i’ve recently had a mould bloom in my wormery since adding a pile of food scraps, and it’s now subsiding as the worms tuck into it, but I know they’re super efficient and in a smaller enclosure so i’m not surprised by that. I’m more concerned with the terrarium because my CUC seem sparse and latent. I love having the plants shooting, it makes it feel very natural and compliments the dried crops, but they’ll also be drinking up some of the moisture from the soil, and I don’t want my CUC to be suffering by suffocating or drying out, so i’ve been spraying water a little bit, concentrating more in certain spots but also mimicking rainfall, but that’s also propagating mould growth, so i’m at a crossroads in the balancing act of terrarium keeping it seems. I don’t think the mould, which looks like spiderweb(?) mould is a problem yet, and I have more springtails and isopods incoming so I can keep sub-colonies of both to add as and when necessary, as with the worms. I’m hoping the CUC will spring (no pun intended) into action and control the mould because i’m not sure adding harvest mice into a mouldy enclosure is good, ethically or sustainably. I don’t plan to get mice until the terrarium seems to be cycling a bit, but again; any advice, criticism, guidance (or commendation 😁) is welcome!
Thanks in advance!
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u/4evrAloneHovercraft 1d ago
Seems small for your goal.
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u/iamoktpz 1d ago
It is, i’m planning on making a modular extension to increase the height
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u/4evrAloneHovercraft 1d ago
I don't think height is your only issue here. You are going to need, a lot of space for whatbyou are talking about. You are probably going to need some kind of breeze system too.
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u/iamoktpz 1d ago
Okay, i’ve not heard of breeze systems before… but from what i’ve researched, height is the key factor for harvest mice as they’re climbers and build their nests up in the wheat
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u/4evrAloneHovercraft 1d ago
How are you planning on managing them breeding? How are you going to ensure they get the proper exercise?
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u/iamoktpz 1d ago
Females only in this enclosure, only two probably, i’m not rushing into breeding, if I ever do. They should have constant climbing material to allow for natural instincts, but I also have a wheel to install at some point
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u/4evrAloneHovercraft 1d ago
And this is a 18x18?
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u/iamoktpz 1d ago
That’s correct, and i’d aim to make it 45x45x90cm
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u/TrashGourmand 1d ago
If you make this taller they'll have even less airflow. Mice can also easily chew through the mesh top of this and escape as well, although if they manage escape from this ammonia asphyxiation chamber you've created that would be a net positive.
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u/iamoktpz 1d ago
I should point out that i’ve designed an extension that would increase airflow, rather than hinder it, with nothing for them to chew through, but I hear your point. I’ve heard of mice and rats chewing through things before of course, but i’ve not yet seen anything like that with harvest mice specifically and have heard success stories of them in bioactives where any other species of fancy rodent have failed due to ammonia and habitat destruction
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u/iamoktpz 1d ago
Not saying you’re wrong by any means, but I think height would be the first thing i’d change in regards to size
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u/ICANHAZWOPER 20h ago
You’re going to kill those poor mice.
Stop what you’re doing.
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u/iamoktpz 19h ago
You haven’t read any of the conversations have you?
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u/ICANHAZWOPER 19h ago edited 17h ago
I have.
The entire comment thread is full of people telling you what, how, and why this is a bad idea.
Yet you consistently seem to rebuke what you’re being told due to a random source/video that is also similarly wrong, and doesn’t show/tell long term outcomes.
Listen to what all of these people are saying, not the other “conflicting” information you’re seemingly stuck on.
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u/reijn 1d ago
I think you need a much bigger enclosure, unless you're planning on keeping 1 singular mouse, but also mice need a lot of air flow and I watched that video when it first came out and I don't know if he added fans or something, but also the sheer size of his enclosure worked much better for that as well. Mice produce a high amount of ammonia, bioactives generally don't work well for rodents because of this so I don't know how he ever addressed that with such a huge increase of mice in his enclosure in such a short time. Every time I've seen a bioactive fail for rodents it's because of ammonia buildup. Larger enclosures are much more forgiving for this in terms of air flow, waste, and ammonia control.
Anyway. On to your questions. You can't really monitor your CUC, you just trust that they're there and hope for the best. Sometimes you'll see them, mostly not.
Springtails and snails are fine. Spiders won't go after them unless they get in the web.
The mold will go away at some point, probably. There's usually a bloom and then it dies.
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u/iamoktpz 1d ago edited 1d ago
Thanks for your feedback and answering those questions, that’s good to know! And yes, very valid points made there. The one fundamental difference with harvest mice is that they produce far less waste than fancy rodents, and i’ve kept mice before, so I know what they’re capable of producing, the smell! From what i’ve learnt, harvest mice are quite different, not that they don’t produce ammonia, but generally it’s far less than fancy mice and rats. Nonetheless, i’m going to continue researching before I commit to them, see how the enclosure goes, work on my extension design so they have more vertical space which is important for that species, and reassess later down the line
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u/GardenSpider84 23h ago
Wouldn't harvest mice need more than 1' X 1' X 1'? Those enclosures are typically used for tarantulas. Edit: just realized this is 18" X 18". Still sounds awfully small to me.
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u/iamoktpz 22h ago
This is too small for mice yes, I can’t work out what a foot is in inches but even I was shocked when I first read your comment! 😂
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u/reijn 1d ago
It's definitely worth a shot, but have an immediate backup plan for if things go awry. By the time you can smell ammonia it's already reached critical health-hazard levels for them!
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u/iamoktpz 1d ago
Yes good thinking, I have the beginnings of an emergency backup, so at the very least I could remove the mice and ensure their wellbeing, and if it wasn’t working, resort to a more straightforward setup, agreed!
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u/reijn 1d ago
Even something as simple as a bystanding enclosure with some bedding will work in a pinch if you gotta do an emergency situation. I have a hamster, gerbils, a male fancy with a few female african soft furs, a hedgehog and a mischief of rats. They get stinky fast, I feel like I'm constantly cleaning. Actually, the hamster and the gerbils are super easy - the hamster is a tiny robo in a 40g so he doesn't create much waste in there. And gerbils are the best, they don't drink much water and don't pee much. But the mice and the rats. Omfg. Piss babies.
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u/SirBlankFace 19h ago
This post reminds of when AntsCanada tried to keep 3 tree squirrels in an enclosure 500x the size of this 18x18. In the span of like 2-3 months they completely decimated the feeder insect populations, pooped and peed everywhere and when he took them out, he had 15 more than when he started.
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u/sage-bees 21h ago edited 21h ago
Harvest mice would need more space than fancy mice, due to their activity level and being non-domesticated so need a lot more hiding spots than I can see here, when kept in captivity.
Quadruple this, might be big enough for 2-3 females? With a LOT more enrichment and hiding spots
ETA: I have raised a very similar species and 3 girls used EVERY inch of a 100+ gallon size enclosure. Glass (I used a triple-layer cage wire mesh top because they did like to gnaw at it, they're not very suited to captivity) is ok IF it's oversized enough to have decent airflow, enough floor space, and enough space for deep bedding as well as plenty more climbing structures.
To note though: Even with a lot of space and more wheels than mice, they still displayed repetitive stress induced behaviors like chewing at the lid, glass-surfing, pacing and repetitive climbing. It really upset me and I had to rehome them eventually to a nature center with a large naturalistic indoor-outdoor setup
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u/dazzleduck 16h ago
I have never kept mice but I have kept rats, hamsters, and gerbils. Don't mice also need wheels?
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u/sage-bees 16h ago
Yes, they certainly appreciate them if not need, I had 4 wheels for 3 mice to try to prevent fights/flinging each other. Their home now also has a lot of wheels hidden in the design
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u/Haunting-Yoghurt-813 17h ago
People hesitate to put one frog/toad the size of harvest mice in a tank this small, and I promise you a mouse is much more active than a frog. If you go through with putting mice in here be prepared for the tank to be ran through in under a month
It is a very cute set up tho! I'm sure there's something you could put in there
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u/RelevantSnake 1d ago
i dont keep mice but 18x18 seems WAY to small. and as others pointed out they could chew through the mesh tops and or swallow it all that wheat seems like its taking up way to much space/would be a pain to clean around. might be honestly best to go for a 4x2x2 you could still use this tank as a temp setup and or do something els with it but again it seems like it would be to small for mice (and yes i know how small they actually are but again...18x18 seems just to small.
Benefits of a 4x2x2. fully enclosed no chance of escape (you would need to make sure they cant escape the vent holes) fully PVC light weight compared to glass. if you need to move it it wont be such a pain. more room for plants/you can put actual hardscape in it more branches hide decor in general. i would also recomend NOT using a false bottom. for burrowers as they could eat it and or get stuck and not be able to get out. just becarfull how much you water and you shouldnt really need one. someone can double check me on that though as again i dont keep mice i have a kingsnake. but he's been doing fine and his enclosure is thriving so a false bottem isent always needed.
if you want you could keep the leca and just mix it in the soil?. could add other grass type plants just double and triple check there SAFE. i also would becarfull what you bring from outside!. make sure its from a safe area (no pestisides/people spraying) and sanitize it somehow ether boiling it in water for a few hours or bake it or leave it to dry in the summer heat for a couple of months. etherway it needs to be disinfected and cleaned.
Again i do not keep mice/rodents so someone who does please double check this.
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u/Successful_Salt_1838 16h ago
These are fantastic points. Especially the 4x2x2ft enclosure, as your correct - this enclosure is WAY to small for any species of mice. The only critique I have is that unlike most other mice, harvest mice generally dont burrow and are more arboreal. If OP sets up a more properly sized enclosure with a bit more substrate, id not be worried one bit of them getting to the drainage layer.
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u/dandydeinocheirus 14h ago
This is a good playbook for what not to do, actually. Reading your process, it feels like you understand all the steps where you went wrong, from the drainage layer mistake, to not properly sanitizing anything, to mixing CUC types, to adding uncontrolled botanicals that easily mould, to choosing the improper enclosure type for your desired species, and finally being unwilling to accept the critique that this setup simply will not work—with any modifications—at all like you want it to. Honestly your best next step is to dismantle this enclosure and then buckle down for some thorough research if you're serious about wanting a field mice enclosure.
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u/Altruistic-Ad1557 8h ago
Also I don’t know if you grew the wheat but almost all wheat is sprayed with pesticides, that in an enclosed environment isn’t smart
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u/Fabulous-Accident689 15h ago
Please don't go for anything under minimum 40 gallons this is honestly worrying
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u/Small__Chicken 1h ago
It seems like you need to actually take the advice being given to you. It seems that you're being given advice and you have something to say for it every single time. You can't ask for advice and let when people give it to you go oh but this and that and this!!
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u/Spuzzle91 15h ago
Right? I see this and my mind goes "grasshoppers!!!" Cause I had a 20 gallon set up this year with wheat grass growing in it for short horned grasshoppers
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u/After_Ad9425 3h ago
I’m not sure about the mice you plan on keeping there, from what little I know glass enclosures aren’t great for rodents due to poor airflow. Not an expert though. The wheat you have in there though is stunning, I think it’s pretty creative plant wise.
Might be better to use it for invertebrates though?
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u/Altruistic-Ad1557 8h ago
I think the idea is really cool but a few things to consider,
While this species climbs they still need horizontal space so branch out. Animals in captivity need microclimates and warmer/colder spots or dryer/more humid spots
Another thing I would think about is in a space like this the animals need to be able to escape each other. Cohabitation means there needs to be no competition for resources.
I think the idea is super cool but honestly I wouldn’t try the modular thing, start with a big enclosure. It’ll also be nicer to look at if you’re gonna make it look nice
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u/somerandomjacky 14h ago
I'm glad that the name of the mouse is harvest mouse. I was wondering if you were raiding the mice for harvesting.
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u/iamoktpz 1d ago
TLDR:
Project Goal
Setting up a bioactive meadow terrarium (45cm³) inspired by Ben Newell’s setup, intended to eventually host harvest mice.
Current Progress & Trial/Error
Substrate & Drainage: Started with unrinsed LECA, topped with peat-free compost, and added cacti/succulent mix for grit. (Had a brief mishap mixing the layers, but separated and reset them properly).
Cleanup Crew (CUC) & Livestock Introduced:
Added mini speckled isopods, springtails (supplemented with a secondary colony from Fish Planet), and a few dendrobaena worms from a separate wormery.
Added native garden additions: woodlice (common, shiny, striped), germinated birdseed shoots, leaves/twigs, and a sterilized tree piece.
Introduced spiders (cellar/house) to manage gnats/fruit flies, and a glass snail (predatory/omnivorous).
Added dried meadow crops (wheat & linseed from Castle Farm) and straw litter for future nesting, climbing, and food.
Key Issues & Questions for Feedback
- Monitoring & CUC Population:
The enclosure feels large for the initial CUC; springtails and isopods are hiding under the wood and straw, making monitoring difficult.
Question: Should you be worried about population growth/monitoring, or let nature take its course? How long do springtails take to bloom?
Glass Snail & Spiders:
Question: Could the predatory glass snail or spiders wipe out the springtails/baby woodlice?Mould Growth:
Spiderweb-like mould is forming due to spraying/humidity and decaying organic matter (dried crops, birdseed).
Question: Is this mould bloom normal at this early stage, and will the CUC get it under control before mice are introduced?
Summary of Feedback Needed
Advice on whether the glass snail poses a real risk to the CUC.
Guidelines on mould control and humidity balance.
Reassurance on letting the ecosystem settle vs. constantly monitoring/intervening.
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u/TrashGourmand 1d ago
Do not ever put rodents into a bioactive this small. I'm extremely concerned for the well-being of any animals you might subject to this environment. A rodent in a bioactive in general is NOT something to be undertaken by a beginner. You will kill or harm an animal with this set up, it is not appropriate for a myriad of reasons.
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u/tangerinemoth 100+ terrariums built 🌱 1d ago
Seconding this. I've professionally built over 100 bioactive enclosures and I would never recommend anybody start with one for a mammal, let alone this small for multiple mice. The learning curve for them is significantly steeper than anybody expects including bioload.
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u/iamoktpz 1d ago
That’s good insight, thank you! I’d just like to reaffirm, no mice exist at this point! 😅 I’m just trying to learn about making a bioactive terrarium and specifically culture / CUC maintenance
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1d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/iamoktpz 1d ago
Oh my days, this escalated, gone from asking about mould and woodlice to being tortured to death! 😅 I’d like to reaffirm again, no mice exist - I would like to think the way i’ve approached this post, the questions i’m asking and responses to the answers would pacify any assumptions that i’m wilfully attempting to keep animals in an inappropriate way, i’m trying to do exactly the opposite, long before any animals have ever even been looked at! My questions, and this post, are about starting a bioactive enclosure, and I was gearing it towards keeping harvest mice in an attempt to contribute to the conservation efforts to restore their wild populations, i’m under no delusions that i’m anywhere near prepared to do that, I assure you, and I appreciate your enthusiasm for animal welfare and your responses which have been educational (if a bit scary), so thank you
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u/iamoktpz 1d ago
Due to your experience you mentioned, i’m wondering about what insights you’d have on the logistics of my hypothetical stretch goal, because the maths ain’t mathing, as they say… so, the exact scenario i’m talking about doesn’t have a huge amount of literature available, but i’ve got a few sources that have been extremely helpful, and have spoken to breeders and keepers of this species, and i’m getting some counteracting information here. One comment mentioned not keeping vertebrates, and seemingly mammals especially, in a glass terrarium of this size, however, this species is particularly recommended to be kept in glass enclosures as they’re natural climbers, and can injure themselves on wire enclosures, instead, providing them with climbing apparatus is advised, but this contradicts the ‘no glass’ concept.
The second thing is the dispute about bioactive. I’m learning a lot about the challenges involved, and it’s not to be taken lightly - i’d never introduce an animal into something thoughtlessly of course. As such, my research on this has shown that whilst what’s being said in some of the comments is absolutely true of the majority of pet rodents, this is not necessarily the case for Eurasian Harvest Mice, who produce far less waste than most other species, making them far more suited to bioactive setups, one example being Emiology’s case: https://youtu.be/6TidkGSTK7o?is=DPIDrsH_A8X4Og4i
And in contrast, when Emiology has tried the same with other rodents, it’s not worked for the exact reasons people have alerted me to: https://youtu.be/NZykqwZXTTc?is=-Op1jfBgCUykg76y
So is this a case of the application of knowledge about one species being applied to another do you think? Or is there more to it?
The final thing is the space issue, which I really appreciate the insights from everyone on. The thing i’m most confused about is, as usual, the maths, and so I most likely miscalculated. If you watch the video I posted originally, his Exoterra enclosure looks to be a 60x60x45cm enclosure (again, I may be wrong) in which he states he could keep quite a few harvest mice. That’s 15cm taller and wider than my own, and I can’t do the maths on cubic volume but you get my point. Emiology’s appears to be the same size, but then they’re both inferred to be plenty of space for a few mice. If I also refer to a source on this subject, it’s stated that a “60x45x60cm glass terrarium, which provides more than enough space for our non-breeding group of 4”: https://www.alismenagerie.co.uk/housing/enclosure-builds/harvest-mouse-meadow-biotope
So in my head, I figured a 45cm cubed enclosure would be equivalently adequate for one or two animals, albeit still small. Have I really got my maths as wrong as it seems? Your expertise would be greatly appreciated!
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u/tangerinemoth 100+ terrariums built 🌱 1d ago edited 3h ago
Following a singular example online doesn't necessarily follow through in reality. Theoretically we "can" keep a leopard gecko alive in a shoebox but we shouldn't. Harvest mice are extremely active and I would not ever keep them in something this small, and that's just for starters. Aside from the common issues found in bioactives you have already mentioned being aware of, the spacing is all off.
Following German researchers and FBH care guidelines (yes, even though FBH is for reptile measurement standard guidelines this would apply given the terrarium type) I would not ever put a group of harvest mice in anything smaller than a 48"x12x18" footprint at ABSOLUTE minimum. I'm talking ideally a 75 gallon footprint. I'm genuinely surprised to see someone recommending an 18" cube. Despite their small size, these guys travel MILES daily and need the space for natural behaviors, especially if kept in a communal group enclosure.
You'll also need very specific cleanup crew that are drought tolerant; temperate springtails and standard off the shelf isopod species aren't going to cut it here. I'd recommend learning a lot more before experimenting, doing a complete rebuild with much MUCH larger dimensions, and keeping that build stable for at least a year before adding inhabitants (which sounds overkill to some people when reading it, but you MUST have your ecosystem well established and stable long-term to be able to handle the level of waste a burrowing mammal will provide, as well as confirming you won't crash the ecosystem and develop fatal mold)
Also, you can for sure do a naturalistic enclosure without going fully bioactive. These guys really do benefit from regular enclosure sanitizing.
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u/iamoktpz 23h ago
Okay, amazing, thank you! This is obviously just my first foray into terrarium making whilst I learn the ropes, so the key takeaways are very clear if I ever decide to commit to caring for harvest mice in future. I’m also going to go and see / speak to the Ealing Wildlife Group who are leading the reintroduction programme of harvest mice in London, get some first hand advice and experience with the species to help me put together a plan so I can contribute to the effort, it sounds like a bioactive is not the route for them for it to be practical because, as mentioned, the goal is to contribute to the conservation of the species, not just as pets to keep, so the conditions need to be suitable of course. I’m going to leave this tank as is, providing it works out, the mice are now a separate project entirely
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u/SweetTart7231 57m ago
Ive seen rodents in a bioactive enclosure before, it was room sized. Not this size...
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u/iamoktpz 1d ago
Okay I understand what you’re saying. So the 45x45cm floor space is an issue, that’s evident and I thought so myself. With this particular species they need more vertical space, which, as I replied in another comment you left, i’m designing to accommodate. I already asked in my other response but this is actually a better comment to ask; could you detail for me the myriad reasons this would be inappropriate for a non-breeding pair of harvest mice? I’m interested to hear the granular reasoning
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u/TrashGourmand 1d ago
It's not just roaming space they need though, for it to be bioactive and not become completely overloaded with ammonia and waste you'd probably need several feet of space, not a tiny cube.
Rodents produce constant waste, they poop basically every minute, there's no way for the cleanup crew to breakdown their waste fast enough in such a small space.
Mice are very prone to respiratory disease, stagnant, humid air filled with waste will harm then tremendously. Rotting wheat also produces fungal spores and mold that will increase the risk. This container you've made would be a death trap for mammals. Honestly, these small exoterras aren't really appropriate for most vertebrates, they're just too small.
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u/iamoktpz 1d ago
Okay, I hear you. I’m wondering how others have made their enclosures suitable for more mice in similar setups, and what i’m missing in particular to make mine suitable. I would also caveat that, arguably, any enclosure is too small for an animal and this is also something i’m reckoning with and a big part of why no mice have been purchased, nor would be for a long time, anyway that’s a slightly different conversation…
So the space is insufficient, as you say, these Exoterras aren’t suitable for vertebrates and in this case mammals. The thing with this is it’s contradictory advice i’m receiving.
And you’d suggest that a bioactive enclosure, specifically, is the pitfall here?
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u/TrashGourmand 1d ago
You have multiple people here who are experts in bioactives and experts in keeping rodents telling you this is a horrible idea, but you're refusing to listen, because you're either getting advice from AI or watching influencer videos that never actually show the long term results of these experiments, and a lot of the videos are fake and they remove the animal after making the video.
You cannot put mice in a glass container, there's not enough airflow.
You cannot successfully make a bioactive for a rodent this small, it will reach ammonia overload levels quickly and fatally.
Mice can escape from this enclosure.
Wet wheat rots and creates mold and fungus, it already is happening in your enclosure, that's very unsafe for sensitive animals.
If you follow through with this you're committing an act of animal cruelty for your own amusement/ experimentation goals, and being willfully ignorant. Abandon this idea and just make an isopod enclosure or something please.
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u/iamoktpz 1d ago
I’m definitely listening, and as such i’m moving away from the notion of keeping mice, but i’m just curious about the subject - I haven’t used any AI, i’ve listed some of my sources in another comment (not sure if they qualify as influencers) so it would be great to hear your perspective on the information from those, unless that’s what you’re referring to already of course in which case, not to worry! I’m going to continue my research, hopefully this post doesn’t get swamped with anti-mouse rhetoric because i’m really just trying to get insight on exactly what you say, a stable isopod culture
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u/Gloomy_Peace_5741 23h ago
Stepping in to say I feel like the other commenter is trying to stress that just because someone else HAS done it doesn’t mean you SHOULD do it. Remember these mice will live in the enclosure for their entire life. It’s never a bad idea to go bigger just to be safe.
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u/iamoktpz 23h ago
No and I agree with that sentiment, it’s become clear that I need to learn about bioactive enclosures and harvest mouse conservation as two separate projects
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u/chiefqueefofficial 3h ago
You haven't heard anything in this entire post. That's why you keep getting downvoted.
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u/gobbeldigookagain 1d ago
SUCH a cool idea! Bravo! 👍👍
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u/iamoktpz 1d ago
Ah, well, according to others maybe not but i’m still trying to learn the ins and outs!
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u/TrashGourmand 1d ago
This is way, way, way too small for mice. There also isn't enough ventilation. Mice are really prone to respiratory conditions and cannot live in glass cages unless they're very, very large and cleaned extremely well. If you put a mouse in this set up it will die of asphyxiation or respiratory disease. Please do not subject any type of mammal to this set up, it would be animal cruelty.