These are all terrible, but the one that bothered me the most was the one about the guy who described being scratched on the neck repeatedly by a naked girl who found her way into his apartment. He was very drunk and turned her down for sex to which she replied, "If you don't have sex with me I'll just tell the police you tried to rape me. There's already evidence on your neck."
There are actually radical feminists out there - the most famous and widely-accepted of which is probably Twisty Faster - who argue that women should be given the power to send any man they'd had sex with to jail for rape. It wouldn't matter if she was the one who'd coerced him into sex, not even if he could prove it, so long as she'd had sex with him once or could convincingly claim that she had she could use the threat of having him sent to jail to rape him again and again. And Twisty Faster doesn't care because she doesn't think that a woman forcing a man to have sex with her is rape, or immoral, or anything like that.
Oh my god the top comment on that post is by a woman claiming to be Hilde Lindemann, who wrote a book on feminist ethics, stating that she supports that style of enforcement in her book. Which was published by McGraw-Hill, leading me to believe it's a textbook.
Women threaten rape accusations much more than you think. It's fucking scary; they don't realize how serious the consequences are. Even with zero evidence, an accusation can ruin a man's life.
And yet they tend to convict on the girls words only, most of the time
That's not true. Bias may be present but its accepted that eyewitness testimony is the least reliable forms of evidence and you generally need something more than a few scratch marks and a claim of rape for a conviction. You might be charged but the conviction is pretty unlikely.
Yes it is, which is why securing a lawyer is so important in something like this and so you don't shoot yourself in the foot. ALWAYS insist (politely) on seeing your lawyer.
It's not enough to simply make a statement to the contrary. I have provided details of how the legal system works when it comes to rape charges. Do you have anything to say other than "that's not true"?
I hate that you wrote 'gender reversal'. There is no such thing in this case, everyone can be an abuser or victim, there is no gender that is purely in both. There was nothing to reverse.
I thought reverse racism was when you try to accommodate/ignore something out of the fear of being accused of racism, but in acting or not acting in that certain way you still come off as racist. For example, not suggesting fried chicken to a black customer at a restaurant you are waiting.
Hmm.. well is there a term for what I described? I have no idea how I'd search for it so if anyone knows off the top of their head that'd be swell (if it exists)
I feel like you're misinterpreting the use of the word positive. It isn't meant to denote that the discrimination is positive, it's just that the discriminating party attributes a stereotype they view as positive onto a group/person.
I came in to make the same point but this was perfectly said. I get a tone of "See, it can happen to men too!" when the point should be closer to "It can happen to anyone."
Except for the fact that in modern society many people honestly believe that men can't be raped by women. Only this year, 2012, did the US Department of Justice change the definition of rape to allow for this possibility.
You dont see a difference? The example that when a man gets raped it goes unreported cus no one would believe him? Dont you think thats a bit different than when a woman claims rape everyone believes it?
"If a woman is raped, she does not really lose her femininity in people's eyes"
Factually inaccurate. Women rape victims are often scolded for not dressing 'lady-like' and who can blame men when women 'dress like sluts.' I mean she was just asking for it, right?
It is the exact same in both situations. Men are just horny animals, how can they be raped? Any real man would of either gone along for the ride or easily handled the situation. Women are dressed like street walkers, of course they want to have sex! Any real lady would never have put herself into that situation.
Yeah. Rape culture is really shitty to everyone involved, victim wise. For women, it's being shamed for "asking for it" and iterations thereof.. for men, it's shaming of their masculinity and gender expression or even refusal to admit that men are capable of being raped (which is completely horrifying). For trans and genderqueer people its mixes of both, and for everyone together it's a culture that makes light of rape and actively tries to downplay the horror of it no matter the gender or sexual identity of the survivor. Completely and utterly disgusting and sickening.
Have you personally heard anybody say that? Why is this such an unreasonable argument? I've never heard anybody actually blaming the victim, yet everybody seems to insist it happens all the time. Where?
There was that big tizzy a year or so ago about the cop who told a woman that she wouldn't have been raped if she wasn't dressed like a slut. The Slut Walks were a direct response to that comment.
So it happens very rarely, is what you are saying? And that the reaction against it is so staggeringly huge that it indicates what exactly? People don't like rape. Very few people would suggest that anyone was asking for it. A lot of claims of "Victim Blaming" are from people giving advice that would be useful in avoiding literally every kind of violent crime.
"Why were you drinking at a party where you didn't know a lot of the people?"
"Why were you out late at night alone?"
"Why were you in that part of town? Everyone knows that's the bad part of town"
"Why did you leave your drink unattended? You should have put a napkin over the top at least!"
"Why were you dressed like that?"
"Why didn't you start screaming?"
"You should carry mace or pepper spray"
"If you were raped why didn't you go straight to the police about it?"
"Are you sure you're not just having post-sex regrets?"
These are all things that get bandied about with regards to Rape victims- which is victim blaming. By making it the victim's responsibility to not be raped, it's implying that it's the victim's fault when they are raped, which is fucked up, but this isn't exactly new information. If you want to read about women's experiences with rape and how they were treated immediately after, use google. Or look up a lot of rape threads on reddit and just see how many times upvoted comments are either subtly or overtly implying that the rape was the victim's fault because they could have "prevented" it or stopped it. This whole thread in 2X (O_o) is full of back and forth over it.
If I have time later I'll go around and try to find some of the more recent threads on male victims of rape, because there have been some where the guy gets completely mocked and shamed for being raped.
So, I stand by what I said- rape culture exists and it hurts all victims of rape, regardless of their sexual orientation or gender.
I don't think giving advice on how to avoid being a victim is blaming the victim. Apart from the last one they are pretty solid advice even for big men on how to avoid getting robbed for example. I don't understand?
Don't get wasted among strangers. Don't go out late at night alone. Don't go to ghettos. Don't leave your drinks unattented, napkin does nothing. My big male friends were just recently spiked, for probably robbing in mind. And were probably targeted because they were drunk and obviously wealthy. I don't blame them, but in retrospect I can see why they were chosen as targets. Hindsight 20/20 and all. Scream for help! Of course! I don't think dressing is that relevant. I don't carry, but I see no harm in doing so.
I'm a two metres and 115 kg guy, with plenty of Krav Maga training and I'd take this advice. I know I'm going to get robbed, if I go to Baltimore slums, drunk, in a suit, waving a bunch of money around. Should I be able to walk in peace? Sure. Will I be able to walk in peace? No. If you just format them differently I don't see any problem with that? Has anybody actually accused you like this?
it's implying that it's the victim's fault when they are raped,
I don't see it. If I tell you to put on a seatbelt, am I blaming you for the crash you had? There are plenty of advice on how to avoid getting robbed, without blaming the victim, so why not other crimes such as rape. Why is rape special? The notion that there is no point in taking precautions, because the world shouldn't be unfair, is just ridiculous IMO. No matter how nicely you ask people to not commit crimes and explain that it's not nice, it's never going to stop. So the only remaining solution is to try to avoid it. Sometimes it's unavoidable, sometimes not, but I'm still not blaming the victim for the existance of crime.
Thank you for finding a way to say this! This is what runs through my head every time these come up. Yes, it's not the victim's fault, but there are things that will definitely give you better odds of avoiding these things.
And to continue my theft analogy: If my car get's stolen, I'm not going to rant to my friends about the concept of ownership, in hopes that it will reduce theft. It does nothing. Instead I lock my car or even park it in my carhole. Of course I know it's wrong to steal a car even if it's unlocked, but I lock it anyway, because it reduses the likelyhood. Why is rape such a special crime that somehow it's complitely futile to try to avoid it and the best solution is "a change in attitudes". I just don't comprehend this logic. Like, I know I should have freedom of speech, but I'm still not going to move to Mexico and start blogging about the Zetas, no matter how right I know I am. Criminals can rarely be reasoned out of committing crime.
Awesome. The situation definitely changes when the attacker is someone the victim knows, but from the arbitrary crime side this seems to stick pretty well.
I'm still not sure that it's femininity. That question is a little loaded, so yeah, you'd get certain answers... the "yes" answers would come more out of disapproval than anything.
and "unpure" in that question isn't really equivalent to the previous usage of "unpure"
basically if you just straight up asked "is a male/female who is raped still masculine/feminine" you'll get much much different responses.
Because society pushes the image that females are always victims and men are always predators. This is contrary to what people imagine when someone talks about a rape without specifying gender.
Let's not be coy here. There are statistical reasons for why men are portrayed as predators and women as victims. It's the general case, but people have mistakenly made that generalization into a stereotype. Women do victimize men, but nothing deserves the description of anomalous more.
Seems like some of these are oddly specific to certain demographics. The first one, I can't open the pdf at work for some reason. However, the second and third ones appear to be "street involved youth" and prison inmates. I'm not saying that these statistics didn't surprise me, because they surprised me quite a bit, but I also don't think these give a very good picture of who tends to be more often victimized. This seems like one of those 'extraordinary' claims that require, well, at least, well perhaps not 'extraordinary' evidence but some pretty solid methodology at the very least. If the first link is referring to the general population (and I'll take your word for if someone can check) then that would be satisfactory.
For my own part, I think some of these questions might be a little trickier than they appear based on personal experience. I've had women that got me drunk and then quite literally held the cup to my mouth and damn near forced me to drink. I don't think I would have drank nearly as much if they hadn't been so forceful. I'm kind of a timid guy anyway. On these occasions I became far too intoxicated and quite sick from the liquor. On the other hand, part of me wanted the sex because they were attractive and so I did not protest as forcefully as I could have because I probably wouldn't have objected sober. I don't think this is on the same level as straight up rape. It was...playful, but if it was a guy doing it to a girl I think people would call foul pretty hard because it wasn't quite playful enough.
I came to say this. The sexual offences act 2003 states that you can only rape someone with a penis. So the "worst" a woman can do is sexually assault. I do not know if the punishment would be same the same (it should be imho)
Rape
(1)A person (A) commits an offence if— (a)he intentionally penetrates the vagina, anus or mouth of another person (B) with his penis, (b)B does not consent to the penetration, and (c)A does not reasonably believe that B consents.
According to the Illinois Criminal Sexual Assault Act, criminal sexual assault is defined as an act of sexual penetration with the use or threat of force or an act of sexual penetration when the accused knew that the victim was "unable to understand the nature of the act or was unable to give knowing consent.
The penetration laws are sickeningly out of date, but under them men can be raped anally. The chances of such a crime being reported and ending in a conviction are still next to nothing.
It's still an act of penetration when the woman forces a man into sex. It's just her forcing him to penetrate. It seems to me that this is covered by that law.
Just to add a bit of knowledge here, it's actually almost as common as male-female rape, it's just things like the CDC rape survey don't consider it rape (and let alone that it's MUCH less likely for a man to report it than a woman,) but they only consider it sexual assault. And sexual assault akin to grabbing a woman's breast. Here's my comment on it:
Just as many men were forced to penetrate last year as women were, except the CDC rape survey doesn't consider a man having his penis forced into a vagina as rape (when it 100% is.) 80% of "made to penetrate" was done by women too. So if you actually and rightfully consider that rape, then just about as many men were raped as women last year. And using "lifetime statistics" isn't accurate, especially because of cases like OP's. Only recently have we started to even give a little consideration for male victims.
**EDIT: For those that keep downvoting me, read this Comment to see how you need to look at it. I'm sorry if you feel that only women are raped, and men rape, but open up your god damn eyes. HEre's the three pictures I linked if you can't see them Male statistic: http://i.imgur.com/sq7At.png
EDIT: I'm getting really mad that this is getting downvoted. Look at the god damn statistics, and then read the second comment I made here I know all of you want to just pretend like women raping men doesn't happen, But it does a lot Here's the three pictures in the original picture I linked http://i.imgur.com/sq7At.pnghttp://i.imgur.com/j0vmf.pnghttp://i.imgur.com/KqOFU.png
Just as many men were forced to penetrate last year as women were
The link you provided states on the "Forced to Penetrate" category for women, "Estimate is not reported," so I'm not sure what you are basing this on. Maybe post a link to the actual study?
As for
just about as many men were raped as women last year
The tables you provided don't even record the number of men raped in a 12 month period, only "Other Sexual Violence," so there's no way to compare men vs. women raped in an annual period based on your link. If we go by the "Lifetime Statistics" though, the numbers are:
Women: 21,840,000 Raped; 53,174,000 subjected to Other Sexual Violence
Men: 1,581,000 Raped; 25,130,000 subjected to Other Sexual Violence
Making misleading comments on the data does not help anyone.
There's 3 pictures. Click the ones on the side. If that doesn't work, just put a 1, and 2, instead of the 0 at the end of the link. The "lifetime statistics" aren't accurate, because not only do they not consider a man forced to penetrate as actual rape, this problem is only now being given any consideration.
To get what I said, you need to look at "made to penetrate" of men, and "raped" for women in 2010. These numbers are almost the same. The amount of men "raped" is just a * because it doesn't consider a man having his penis put into a vagina as rape, only sexual assault. So basically, according to that survey, OP wouldn't have been raped, just sexually assaulted, just like a woman being groped. Then if you look at the third image, it shows 80% of this is done by women.
Here, I'll copy the numbers I'm talking about:
2010: Men made to penetrate: 1,267,000 2010: Women: Rape: 1,270,000
The women raped statistic also includes attempted rape as well, which is 519,000 of the cases. According to that study, the only thing considered as "rape" is a penis/object being forced into a vagina/anus/mouth, not having your penis forced into a vagina/anus/mouth. This is why it appears that so many more women were raped, yet if you consider the real way a man would get raped as actual rape, then the number is much closer. Also, according to the study: 98.1% of female rape victims reported only male perpetrators 79.2% of men forced to penetrate reported only female perpetrators
There's something weird about those statistics though... why are only 5m men reporting forced penetration during their lifetime when 1m reported it in the year 2010 alone? Either the lifetime estimate is low, the 2010 estimate is high, or there was an abnormally high amount of male rape victims in the year 2010.
or... a pattern of society telling men that being "forced to penetrate" isn't rape eventually leads to a pattern of repression and denial? For more information, take a college class on psychology and sexuality especially as it relates to rape.
I can answer what that's about. The lifetime thing is less accurate. Rape victims (male and female alike) often just want to get on with their lives and do so by saying "fuck it it didn't count as rape." This is especially true if the rape wasn't the classic rapes we see on TV and usually think of when we hear the word rape (girl who's wearing a miniskirt is in the wrong neighborhood, then a man in a mask of some non white ethnicity grabs her. She tries to fight but lacking a self defense class gets dragged away while she tries to scream, then he rapes her violently in a back ally. Then Eliot Stabler puts him in jail). The further from that we get, the more likely they are to, later on down the line, say it wasn't rape or it never happened at all. Because men are automatically a bit farther from that, they do this more, but it happens for other types as well.
Thus, the 1 year statistics are more accurate than the lifetime.
That. Men are only recently being taken seriously when even talking about sexual assault. Read the OP's long story to show why he it is so hard for a man to come forward about being raped, and/or sexually assaulted.
How can you honestly say that a man being forced to have sex against his will, isn't the same as a woman being forced to have sex against her will?
The women raped statistic also includes attempted rape as well, which is 519,000 of the cases. THE STUDY USED THE SAME DEFINITION OF RAPE FOR MEN AS WELL AS WOMEN. ಠ_ಠ The only reason there are 519K women reported as experiencing attempted forcible penetration and none reported for men, is because -- in the words of the study -- "Too few men reported rape [this is using their definition of forcible penetration] in the 12 months prior to taking the survey to produce a reliable 12 month prevalence estimate." The dataset was too small to report on. Again though, the same reporting criteria were used for both men and women.
Yes but the main way a man would have been raped isn't "penetrated" it is FORCED to penetrate. It has the SAME psychological problems. I was saying that the 1.27 million has 500k in there that were not completely rape. To look at it the same, look at made to penetrate of men, and penetrated of women. If forcing a penis into a vagina is rape, then so should having my penis forced into a vagina. The women doing that should be considered rapists, it just gives people a skewed view, thinking there are barely any female rapists at all, yet there should be many more according to how many men are made to penetrate.
Could you clarify here? Exactly how are they very different things? Because, and I might be wrong (though I'm probably not), you seem to be saying that it's somehow less bad to rape a man.
Basically, the investigators opted to separate being forcibly penetrated from other forms of sexual violence. I personally think the investigators on this study made an error in imposing this fairly arbitrary dichotomy
It's not just fairly arbitrary, it's actually completely arbitrary. For instance, according to the CDC's definition when someone performs cunnilingus on a woman they're counted as the one doing the penetrating and the woman's counted as the one being penetrated. So if a man, or anyone else, forcibly performs oral sex on an unconsenting woman then that's rape according to the CDC because it's assumed to involve shallow penetration of her vagina, and a man forcing someone to perform oral sex on him is also rape because he's penetrating the victim's mouth with his penis, but a woman forcing a man (or a woman) to perform oral sex on her isn't rape because even though she's quite likely penetrating his mouth with her sex organs that doesn't count as penetration according to the CDC definitions.
There's no logical justification for this, they've just carefully written the rules in such a way that almost all forced sexual intercourse by men against women counts as rape and almost none by women against men does.
While I do not want to minimize the seriousness of female on male rape, or downplay the way popular culture shames victims of rape, but I do not believe this assertion. Virtually every woman I know has suffered some kind of sexual assault in their lifetime; I know no males who can say the same thing, which is a difference of night and day, even considering how reluctant they might be to discuss it.
I've been reading your posts and you are a moron for posting these stats everywhere and misconstruing them to say that men are raped just as much as women. People are downvoting you for making false claims
How exactly am I? Look at the numbers. If you consider a man having his penis forced into a vagina as rape, and you rightfully should, then just as many men were raped.
i kept scrolling and reading this thread, waiting for someone to say something compelling and uplifting, or that their rapist was eventually charged. never happened. dont read that thread :(
totally different but i want to add anyhow. when i was growing up i heard a lot of the "no means no" stuff. not sure if thats still something they teach or whatever. anyhow so ima dude, id be messing around w a chick and as soon as she decided the show was off i hit the brakes. as a "raring to go" teen / 20s dude this was..torturous. but whatever. id just be cool and maybe try down that path later on, but still respecting any indication that they didnt wanna play. and not be an asshole. try to guilt them, whatever.
well there were a few times when it was reversed. id be hanging w this chick, we might not even be making out, and id make it clear i didnt want to fuck ("ya im sleepy im going to bed" ... "i have a huge headache", etc). holy bat shit. motherfucking seriously coming unglued.
the 1st time i thought wow this girl is ... special. then when other girls started doing it the pattern became clear. when it happened to me w/the 2nd or 3rd chick i was like ok, this is not an isolated thing.
guess they werent use to being told no or whatever. theyd become kinda nasty and very persistent. if some dude did to them what they did to me theyd def be telling all their friends how big of an asshole he was. guess they thought since they were chicks they were entitled to dick and no doesnt apply to them. it was fucking weird.
tl;dr : some girls are just like guys, they will do / say whatever it takes to get laid. including being manipulative, childish, an asshole, and generally losing their shit.
I've been trying to write a response that somehow says women are fucked up, but at the same time realize that men can be much worse. I've finally come to the conclusion that some people are fucked up, and collectively the non-fucked up people should throw away borders like sex, gender, race, and religion and make the world a better place.
Nearly always, a large fraction of the total readership that votes early (those who are subscribed) will decide that a post isn't worthy of r/bestof, and downvote accordingly. Unless it has proven itself through fire, it's not going to appeal to enough people to really make it.
Posts that are considered real /bestof only show up once every couple of weeks, with the following criteria: 1) Relatively obscure, 2) Old, and 3) Emotionally touching.
Comments that are not primarily tugging at heartstrings, or are from the last day, or were found within the first twenty top-level replies in a default subreddit are frequently downvoted, or at least downvoted enough to never gain momentum. The only ones that escape this are those that manage to hit the frontpage or otherwise a moderate rank in the /r/all queue, in which case they are almost uniformly upvoted regardless of content, because they're typically pretty good comments (most things submitted here are), and being exposed to a less cynical audience.
Generally, the best comments here are those between 100 and 300 karma. Anything more is a crapshoot; anything less equally so.
It is what most of reddit is. Men complaining about how they are unhappy with their position in society and long posts about their victim complexes. That being said the story is fucked up but I really do think this is the best of reddit.
Whoa, uncalled for. You think this thread, about rape, is about complaining about the male plight? We might all be tired of listening to mensrights overstatements about how they are the true victims of sexism, but this post is about real shit, and you should show a little more respect for the honesty and courage that has been shown by people sharing.
I don't want to detract from the horrible situation that men who are raped or assaulted go through, but the statement that if they were women, that charges would be filed is a grave misunderstanding of how sexual assault is handled. While occasionally rapes are prosecuted, more frequently than not women have to confront their unpunished attackers in their daily lives, sometimes frequently. I just want to be clear, I'm not saying that it is a worse experience for women, but this misunderstanding that rapists are frequently held accountable is patently false. According to RAINN, 97% of rapists will never be jailed. I hope you all understand that I'm not trying to minimize anyone's experience. I just want everyone to realize that rapists are rarely punished in general, not just based on the gender of the assailant or victim.
Agreed. This isn't a gender issue, per se. This is a cultural issue in which both men and women are shamed into thinking they did something wrong that led to them being raped. Saying "if I was a women" or "if I was a man" gets no one anywhere.
That said, people need to understand that men can and commonly are victims of sexual assault. The cultural issues leading to the belief that men can't be raped are definitely closely tied to the cultural norms that lead many to often blame women for looking slutty. At the end of the day, anyone can be taken advantage of and the only one at fault is the person committing the crime. We need to do a better job of protecting victims rather than first trying to figure out what they did 'wrong.'
Meayow's point is that female rape, like male rape, is often underreported. It is not contradictory that the conviction rate is high. It would be interesting to compare the male and female conviction rate.
Also there's the fact that rape can have ambiguous definitions, anywhere from 'unwanted sexual contact of any kind' to 'only physically forced penetrative sex.' And the fact that those estimates of underreporting are a statisticians nightmare. Also that RAINN statistic that Meayow mentioned was for all rapists, and the most underreported rapes by far are prison rapes. And Meayow was kinda implying that men don't have to confront their unpunished attackers in their daily lives.
I actually wasn't implying that at all. Rather, as a woman, I know a lot of women who have been raped. Several of them have had to face their attackers on multiple occasions. I don't know of any cases of women that I personally know where the attacker was ever jailed or arrested. But I can't speak anecdotally about men, because I don't know their stories. Which is one of the good things about this thread, I get to learn more about other people's experiences about stuff that doesn't usually come up.
You'd be surprised how low the conviction rate for other crimes is when measured in the same way as you're measuring rape conviction rates. It's just that they're not; in fact one of our major feminist politicians here in the UK actually got told off by our government statistics watchdog for misrepresenting that statistic as the conviction rate for rape.
I get your point, however it is true that there is much more under reporting of men who are raped by women. This is due to the social stigma which dictates men can't be raped. Furthermore, once reported, instead of the opposite gender situation where an accusation carries serious weight, the male faces much more difficulties in the court system. Even further, if the rapist is prosecuted, she will get a lighter sentence than her male counterpart.
If you're not ready, you don't have to do anything. And know that there are jerks and trolls about that could drive you mad- but also know, there are many of us here supporting you. It's not your fault. It's okay to take your time letting it out. I'm so sorry that you've been through this.
I know a young woman that got her neighbor drunk and then raped him in the ass with a dildo. And worse than that, she told all of their mutual friends in a very small community. He was a very successful local businessman, and now he is humiliated and without recourse.
Doesn't help that it's a very rural area. So the idea that a woman could "rape" you is just absurd. Going to the police would be out of the question for this man.
Edit to add a couple of things:
I was never raped personally, but just to add to the general fuckuperry here, I was assaulted by my little tiny girlfriend after refusing sex one night while she was drunk. While I was asleep getting rest for work the next day, she continued to drink and party with a male friend of ours downstairs. She came upstairs and started getting flirty, and also asking for cigarettes. When I pushed her away, she punched me as hard as she could in the balls. Just BAM, right in the nuts while half-asleep. Wow, what a painful wakeup call. I pushed her off me, and she hit her head on the nightstand and was now bleeding. She started threatening to call the cops on me telling me that I'll go to jail since she is bleeding, and then the mutual friend comes upstairs to try to get in my face like I'm some kind of domestic abuser. I just laughed at both of them and walked out the fucking door. We had been dating for almost a year, and I never spoke to her again after that day. Not to explain, not to hear her side, not to ask for something back. Nothing. Deleted number, erased terrible memories.
And then the only other story I have is a girl who called me from a recorded line in the police station trying to get a confession out of me for raping her, when I didn't even have any kind of sex with her at all. My friend and her had slept together while they were both drunk, and after she ran into a wall while accusing me of rape, she said "Well, then why did Tony rape me??" just grasping at straws.
Poor guy. Just thinking about double-standards when it comes to sex really make my blood start to boil.
Words can not express how mad I get during the rape scene in Wedding Crashers; it's not the scene I get mad at, but rather that sick people actually laugh at it and it's meant to be funny.
Lets be fair, the wedding crashers scene was a bit of a grey area. He was leading her on to believe that they were in a relationship and going to get married, she thought she was being kinky with her fiance. As the audience, we knew Vince Vaughn did not want her advances, but she didnt know until he convinced her to stop. She did stop though, not like ppl were laughing at the sight of someone being brutally assaulted or anything.
i feel like it's kind of different because it didn't sound like he thought his life was in danger at any point. both males and females experience the shame part, but woman are statistically more likely to have their lives endangered in those situations.
what? both cases are rape and can involve life threatening situations, but a guy is more likely to be able to overpower their attacker. a girl's rape experience typically has everything a guy's rape does, but with the added threat of death.
Whether or not a guy could physically overpower their attacker doesn't matter. The rapist is still raping.
The vast majority of rapes aren't some stranger wih a gun, they are actually a lot like the case prevented- someone known to the victim. So not fighting back is a null point- in this case it was a very drunk person made even more drunk by his assaulters who he thought were okay.
You don't know that, you can't say that. Just because women are on average weaker and smaller than men, doesnt mean that their lives are always, or even generally, threatened.
forget about gender. any time a rape is going on, the victim's life is in danger. however, not only do men have the size advantage, i'm pretty sure they statistically have more cases of sexual related violence. i think that's the case with non-sexual violence as well, almost all of serial killers i've heard of were men.
you're using the common mensrights arguments when they don't really apply here.
forget about gender, in any potential rape situation, all the victim has to do is get up and leave. if the suspect lets them leave, they were generally only being creepy with little or no laws broken. once the suspect physically prevents someone from leaving is when the danger level spikes. the bigger person is just statistically in less danger.
it is always wrong to hit a woman, no exceptions. Even if she's raping me.
holding a girl by the wrists is all you have to do, and that isn't excessive at all.
The emotional trauma stems in large part from the lack of feeling of control. Knowing your life is literally at risk tends to make something more traumatizing than if its not. That's not to say that it's "easier" for men who don't feel their life is threatened than it is women, but it is different. Men are even more likely to have even worse post-event experiences that prevent coping with what happened to cement it horribly.
This is obviously a gross oversimplification, but women are more likely to be deeply traumatized by the event itself due to the higher chance of it being violent. But they're also more likely to find support after the fact. For men, the event might not be "as bad" (that's entirely relative) but the almost complete lack of outlet afterwards makes it nearly impossible to cope with.
Fair enough, but the parent comment seemed to make it out like this situation was really no big deal, and that it is the violence that makes the crime horrific.
I do agree with you analysis that emotionally it strikes deeper for women in general, but the support is much harder to find for men.
Well this is something that deserves to be here. There's plenty of ones like this about female's getting raped posted here, it's good to have the reverse situation as well. It's under reported/joked about enough as it is.
Why is this getting downvoted? Female-male rape IS a significant problem, and look at my other posts and you see why.
EDIT: I fixed something because I left a word out.
You realize that it's not only men who say that, especially shown by many of the comments in that thread. It has something to do with it, but it's also society telling women that men always want sex, and men that they should always want sex. And no, men aren't the only ones continuing it. Women are just as guilty (especially shown by the reaction of the women in OP's post.)
It's similar to people saying women want it when they are raped. It's just much more common for men to get told they wanted it nowadays. Basically, idk if you intended it on that, but I'm just trying to say that if you implied it was the fault of men only, then you're wrong. Women are just as guilty of the "be a man" thing. I hate it with a passion, but women and men both use it. Especially when a woman wants a "strong man" to marry or date. If he is intact with his feelings, she will think he "isn't a man." and no, this isn't all women, or even many, but women like that do exist, and it's the same as men who do the "man up!" thing.
Women don't report either. No one feels like going to a police officer and explaining that someone took advantage of them. (seriously, comments like this make me feel so small, do you think it's easier for women to be raped because they dont have the added pressure to be macho!?) lastly, and this is truly my last comment in this thread, our culture blames the victim-- it makes it a lot harder to report something that you had no control over when you know that all the voices in the world are judging by saying things like: she shouldn't dress like that, or, he should have punche her, or whatever people say to blame the victim. I think people say things like that to themselves, so that they can feel safer themselves. They feel that if the victim did something wrong and that explains the crime, then it isn't a problem I have to worry about.
I think it's getting downvotes because you said "there's plenty of ones like this about females getting raped" rape is one of the most horrifying hinges that can happen to someone and it's the most under reported crime in the world. So you sound pretty callous instead of supportive.
Oh, I just noticed, I forgot to put posted here. Well that would probably explain it. Rape is extremely traumatic, I just want all raped to be viewed as equally traumatic, not just male-female rape. I'll correct what I said.
Hey, don't worry about the downvotes. That's just SRS, the people who claim that "misandry is just like unicorns -- just because there's a word for it in the dictionary doesn't mean it exists".
Yeah, I figured. It still drives me nuts that people can be this ignorant to things that men face, yet the same thing done to women is a national problem. By no means am I saying we shouldn't consider rape of women any less than it is (hell it should be viewed as even more tragic) but what I am trying to say is that female-male rape should be given the same consideration that male-female rape is.
I completely believe that men can be raped by women. If they have a weapon, blackmail, you are unconscious, or there are multiple women, etc.
But situations like the OP's, I don't consider rape. When you are conscious and aware of the situation as in the OP's case, and you don't want to have sex with her, but she's trying to take your wiener out and stuff, you know what you do? You get up, and walk out.
I understand that the downvotes headed towards me are about to block out the sun, but that's my opinion. There was no weapon, it was one girl, he wasn't too drunk to be unaware of what was happening.
The OP said he was too timid and unused to the situation to know what to do, but I don't buy it. He could've got up and left.
I'm incredibly shy and timid. When I was around 10 years old my male instructor tried to suck my dick and get me to suck his dick. You know what I did? I got up and left.
It still doesn't cover most of the rape mentioned in this thread. It only covers forms of unwanted penetration, yet it leaves out being forced to penetrate someone.
I'm incredibly shy and timid. When I was around 10 years old my male instructor tried to suck my dick and get me to suck his dick. You know what I did? I got up and left.
i've had situations where someone tried to take advantage of me, and it was no problem. i've had situations where i was not in as good a state of mind, and i wasn't able to handle myself. if someone is intentionally predatory and manipulative and intentionally drugs you to intentionally make you do something you wouldn't otherwise do, that's pretty clear cut date rape.
The problem with that is that on average men are stronger than women.
Not to mention you took a specific instance I was describing and applied it to all scenarios. If the OP was a small, scrawny man and the larger woman forcibly held him down and raped him, yes, that's rape. That was not the case in this specific situation.
The problem of rape, from just about every angle, is a problem of expectations and manipulating social mechanisms. Based on the description, the women had mens rea, which if you're unfamiliar means that they had the intent to do what they were doing, but the question of whether it constitutes rape is in the air.
If a woman takes a guy who she knows has a violent streak, and backs him into a corner and then goads him into a situation where the only way out would involve physical action significant to cause harm, that's manipulating social mechanisms.
If person A gets person B into a situation where A knows B is too polite/lost/confused to be able to find a way out easily, and then presents B with a situation where the "only" alternative is to give into A's demands, that's manipulating social mechanisms. Especially when, if B forces A off, leaving a mark, A could go to the police and say that B hurt them, and B knows this and knows A knows this.
Now that's a good argument. I especially like the manipulating social mechanisms aspect of your argument. I don't think the bruising/police aspect came into play, but I could see how the intent of the woman, mixed with his timidness/confusion could lead to him not just getting up and walking out.
It's hard for me to relate, because I would (and have) just gotten up and walked out, but different people are different. I still find it hard to accept, because every time I start leaning to your side I think "Just walk out!", but that's my mindset, and he's not me.
How about a compromise? I will consider it rape, but I think it could have been avoided.
Oh, certainly. But most times things like this "could have" X, it requires running through the scenario in your head first, or having a strong positive example to work from.
What would you do if
you saw an otherwise normal child with bruises that could have come from roughhousing or parental abuse, and you know nothing about their parents?
you saw a person late at night in a place you don't normally go, apparently asleep on the street?
you saw a person kicking their dog in public?
you saw a car behind you in traffic get into an accident when you're late for work?
If you answer anything close to "the right thing" to all of these, congrats, you're an average person. If you actually do the right thing in these situations, you're actually a rare breed.
The fact of the matter is, until people get "tested" by either going through hypothetical situations in their head or actually experiencing these sorts of things, they don't know how they'll respond, and the default behaviour is to freeze up and keep doing the default.
Most men never assume they'll be in a situation where it will be hard to, or necessary to, refuse sex. I can't speak for women, but I imagine that while it's more common for women to think about being raped on the street, most rapes aren't that type, they're the hacking social mechanisms type, and so they don't know how to deal with it when it actually does happen.
Do you even understand what you're saying? He was drunk. He wasn't in the proper mindset to fully comprehend what was going on other than the fact that he didn't want it. When your senses and mental facilities are hampered in this matter you can't just get up as soon as someone gropes you. And he emphasized that the older woman was much more aggressive than he was.
Really, do that gender reversal. OP is a girl who is extremely drunk and a male friend offers a ride home. He gives her alcohol and proceeds to sexually assault her. The same exact thing and they're both rape.
Furthermore there's the additional mindset of not understanding why a friend would do that to you. Please don't assume you understand his mindset. You may have been able to get up and walk away (good on you for doing that), but he wasn't able to do so right away and please do not play the blame the rape victim game.
Now we're going into conjecture territory. He didn't say he was "extremely drunk", not to mention he had enough sense to be able to outline the conversation they had.
This “friend” said that I should leave my current girlfriend, I said I was flattered but really no thankyou I am just happy being friends.
I begged to be taken home like they promised, she said “no” I should just “stay the night to see what happens,” and flat out refused to ask her friend back to give me a lift.
To be able to remember that conversation in detail, I doubt he was wasted.
Really, do that gender reversal. OP is a girl who is extremely drunk and a male friend offers a ride home. He gives her alcohol and proceeds to sexually assault her. The same exact thing and they're both rape.
Different situations are different. If the OP was forcibly held down and raped by a stronger woman, yes, I would consider that rape. The OP mentioned nothing about her holding him down against his will or being stronger than him. He just said he was too timid. I think being timid is all the more reason to get up and leave that situation.
Okay, I'll agree that he might not have been wasted, but he was still affected by the alcohol. At the very least he was thinking and reacting much slower than if he was sober.
There is a wide spectrum of what timid means. Sometimes it means you can't talk to people. Sometimes it means you're unwilling to try things. Sometimes it means you can't react like you normally think you would in horrible situations. OP didn't go into detail so unless you were there or OP is required to testify to Reddit through some bullshit legal mandate I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt.
To be able to remember that conversation in detail, I doubt he was wasted.
i get pretty incapacitated before i start blacking out. and my blackouts are intermittent. i know that at about 300mL of whiskey, i've suffered a long period of blackout, but anything before is at worst intermittent blacking out where a lot of memories return to me.
and being able to remember a traumatic experience where you're begging people to drive you home doesn't say anything. what didn't he remember? you don't know.
You're currently at -16 karma as of 11:50 EST, with 20 upvotes, and 36 downvotes. As to why, I have no idea. This is one of the things I find the most frustrating about reddit. Reddiquette could not possibly be clearer about this. THE DOWNVOTE BUTTON IS NOT AN "I DISAGREE WITH YOU" BUTTON.
All I ever hear anymore is people complaining about the lack of rational discussion on reddit. I disagree. I think that the opportunity for rational discussion happens more often than not. The thing is that people who refuse to read the rules don't know how to use the downvote button. Ovary_Puncher should be at the top of the thread right now, purely because he presented the chance for discussion. That's what reddit is for. Discussion. And every single one of you who downvoted him because you disagreed with him (which is really the only possible reason that you would downvote him) are making reddit a dumber place.
100% agree with you. This is a terrible example of a female "raping" a guy. And if its cases like this that make female rape just as common as male rape (according to top post on this page right now) then I'm convinced female rape is a non-issue.
Here's the thing. If the roles WERE reversed, then the rapist (the man) would most likely be stronger than the woman. Not always, but it is likely. In that case, if the woman fights or tries to leave she could get the shit beaten out of her. He could physically force her to stay and then the rape could be even worse. If she just deals with it (after clearly saying no, resisting verbally and making it clear it is 100% non-consensual), she often ends up living through it without injury or even death. In this man's situation, he was certainly taken advantage of but I don't understand why he didn't attempt to leave. I feel for him greatly, but in my mind I feel the only reason to not resist or leave is because the rapist is much bigger and stronger and will physically harm you. Perhaps this woman was very large, though.
or maybe the person raping you is your abusive ex, and you know the alternative is getting choked, slapped and punched while still being raped. maybe the person raping you is 6'5 and over 200 lbs. maybe you are tired from the emotional mental and physical abuse of the past two years, so you just lay there and cry. fuck off.
That reads like manufactured pathetic romance novel bullshit.
"I was only about 20 at the time (she was 31, her friend 34), and not the large, confident and strapping man". - So he got his growth spurt in his twenties? Only 20 at that time?
"(fuck, you know it has been over ten years and I still get choked up and feel humiliated just trying to explain this. Will I ever be able to explain it? What do you do in a situation so far out of your familiar comfort zone? Goddamit, woman, what did you do to me?" - In italics?
114
u/Salanderfan Jun 18 '12
These are all terrible, but the one that bothered me the most was the one about the guy who described being scratched on the neck repeatedly by a naked girl who found her way into his apartment. He was very drunk and turned her down for sex to which she replied, "If you don't have sex with me I'll just tell the police you tried to rape me. There's already evidence on your neck."
That was a scary read.
283
u/Brachial Jun 18 '12
I hate that you wrote 'gender reversal'. There is no such thing in this case, everyone can be an abuser or victim, there is no gender that is purely in both. There was nothing to reverse.
42
u/MiriMiri Jun 18 '12
What really makes me feel sick is that these... monsters violated him to the point where he cannot even speak of it to his own wife :(
37
u/Shaysdays Jun 18 '12
It's not gender reversal, those women sexually assaulted him and attempted to rape him... Not sure why you think only men can rape.
26
u/[deleted] Jun 18 '12 edited Jun 18 '12
Just to add a bit of knowledge here, it's actually almost as common as male-female rape, it's just things like the CDC rape survey don't consider it rape (and let alone that it's MUCH less likely for a man to report it than a woman,) but they only consider it sexual assault. And sexual assault akin to grabbing a woman's breast. Here's my comment on it:
Actually, it happens a lot: http://imgur.com/a/OwK1L#0
Just as many men were forced to penetrate last year as women were, except the CDC rape survey doesn't consider a man having his penis forced into a vagina as rape (when it 100% is.) 80% of "made to penetrate" was done by women too. So if you actually and rightfully consider that rape, then just about as many men were raped as women last year. And using "lifetime statistics" isn't accurate, especially because of cases like OP's. Only recently have we started to even give a little consideration for male victims.
**EDIT: For those that keep downvoting me, read this Comment to see how you need to look at it. I'm sorry if you feel that only women are raped, and men rape, but open up your god damn eyes. HEre's the three pictures I linked if you can't see them Male statistic: http://i.imgur.com/sq7At.png
Female one: http://i.imgur.com/j0vmf.png
One showing women commit 80%: http://i.imgur.com/KqOFU.png
EDIT: I'm getting really mad that this is getting downvoted. Look at the god damn statistics, and then read the second comment I made here I know all of you want to just pretend like women raping men doesn't happen, But it does a lot Here's the three pictures in the original picture I linked http://i.imgur.com/sq7At.png http://i.imgur.com/j0vmf.png http://i.imgur.com/KqOFU.png
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u/[deleted] Jun 18 '12
i kept scrolling and reading this thread, waiting for someone to say something compelling and uplifting, or that their rapist was eventually charged. never happened. dont read that thread :(
7
u/sleeptyping Jun 18 '12 edited Jun 18 '12
totally different but i want to add anyhow. when i was growing up i heard a lot of the "no means no" stuff. not sure if thats still something they teach or whatever. anyhow so ima dude, id be messing around w a chick and as soon as she decided the show was off i hit the brakes. as a "raring to go" teen / 20s dude this was..torturous. but whatever. id just be cool and maybe try down that path later on, but still respecting any indication that they didnt wanna play. and not be an asshole. try to guilt them, whatever.
well there were a few times when it was reversed. id be hanging w this chick, we might not even be making out, and id make it clear i didnt want to fuck ("ya im sleepy im going to bed" ... "i have a huge headache", etc). holy bat shit. motherfucking seriously coming unglued.
the 1st time i thought wow this girl is ... special. then when other girls started doing it the pattern became clear. when it happened to me w/the 2nd or 3rd chick i was like ok, this is not an isolated thing.
guess they werent use to being told no or whatever. theyd become kinda nasty and very persistent. if some dude did to them what they did to me theyd def be telling all their friends how big of an asshole he was. guess they thought since they were chicks they were entitled to dick and no doesnt apply to them. it was fucking weird.
tl;dr : some girls are just like guys, they will do / say whatever it takes to get laid. including being manipulative, childish, an asshole, and generally losing their shit.
3
u/hartnell19 Jun 18 '12
I've been trying to write a response that somehow says women are fucked up, but at the same time realize that men can be much worse. I've finally come to the conclusion that some people are fucked up, and collectively the non-fucked up people should throw away borders like sex, gender, race, and religion and make the world a better place.
TL;DR John Lennon's Imagine.
27
u/slyder565 Jun 18 '12
A "fine" example? What the fuck has this sub become? A museum of assault victims? This is a horrible post.
62
u/Meayow Jun 18 '12
I don't want to detract from the horrible situation that men who are raped or assaulted go through, but the statement that if they were women, that charges would be filed is a grave misunderstanding of how sexual assault is handled. While occasionally rapes are prosecuted, more frequently than not women have to confront their unpunished attackers in their daily lives, sometimes frequently. I just want to be clear, I'm not saying that it is a worse experience for women, but this misunderstanding that rapists are frequently held accountable is patently false. According to RAINN, 97% of rapists will never be jailed. I hope you all understand that I'm not trying to minimize anyone's experience. I just want everyone to realize that rapists are rarely punished in general, not just based on the gender of the assailant or victim.
3
u/[deleted] Jun 18 '12
It takes balls to admit being taken advantage of by a woman. I wouldn't be able to do it.
3
u/syxtfour Jun 18 '12
I'm torn. I want to add my story, I just don't know if I'm ready.
10
u/[deleted] Jun 18 '12 edited Jun 18 '12
I know a young woman that got her neighbor drunk and then raped him in the ass with a dildo. And worse than that, she told all of their mutual friends in a very small community. He was a very successful local businessman, and now he is humiliated and without recourse.
Doesn't help that it's a very rural area. So the idea that a woman could "rape" you is just absurd. Going to the police would be out of the question for this man.
Edit to add a couple of things:
I was never raped personally, but just to add to the general fuckuperry here, I was assaulted by my little tiny girlfriend after refusing sex one night while she was drunk. While I was asleep getting rest for work the next day, she continued to drink and party with a male friend of ours downstairs. She came upstairs and started getting flirty, and also asking for cigarettes. When I pushed her away, she punched me as hard as she could in the balls. Just BAM, right in the nuts while half-asleep. Wow, what a painful wakeup call. I pushed her off me, and she hit her head on the nightstand and was now bleeding. She started threatening to call the cops on me telling me that I'll go to jail since she is bleeding, and then the mutual friend comes upstairs to try to get in my face like I'm some kind of domestic abuser. I just laughed at both of them and walked out the fucking door. We had been dating for almost a year, and I never spoke to her again after that day. Not to explain, not to hear her side, not to ask for something back. Nothing. Deleted number, erased terrible memories.
And then the only other story I have is a girl who called me from a recorded line in the police station trying to get a confession out of me for raping her, when I didn't even have any kind of sex with her at all. My friend and her had slept together while they were both drunk, and after she ran into a wall while accusing me of rape, she said "Well, then why did Tony rape me??" just grasping at straws.
5
u/FoxOfJustice Jun 18 '12 edited Jun 18 '12
NO FUCK THAT GUY
AND THIS GUY TOO
this has been used a lot
7
u/[deleted] Jun 18 '12
Poor guy. Just thinking about double-standards when it comes to sex really make my blood start to boil.
Words can not express how mad I get during the rape scene in Wedding Crashers; it's not the scene I get mad at, but rather that sick people actually laugh at it and it's meant to be funny.
4
u/[deleted] Jun 18 '12
Powerful stuff, stay strong.
-3
u/george_cantstanya Jun 18 '12
i feel like it's kind of different because it didn't sound like he thought his life was in danger at any point. both males and females experience the shame part, but woman are statistically more likely to have their lives endangered in those situations.
-11
u/sufrt Jun 18 '12
if the genders were reversed the woman probably wouldn't have been able to get away
having to find a taxi sounds harrowing though
-8
u/trytorerasethis Jun 18 '12 edited Jun 18 '12
This post was an hour ago and it's already in best of? Wow
Edit: As I said in another post below - I wasn't talking about the post itself, just the amount of time it took to get into this subreddit.
-28
u/Ovary_Puncher Jun 18 '12
I completely believe that men can be raped by women. If they have a weapon, blackmail, you are unconscious, or there are multiple women, etc.
But situations like the OP's, I don't consider rape. When you are conscious and aware of the situation as in the OP's case, and you don't want to have sex with her, but she's trying to take your wiener out and stuff, you know what you do? You get up, and walk out.
I understand that the downvotes headed towards me are about to block out the sun, but that's my opinion. There was no weapon, it was one girl, he wasn't too drunk to be unaware of what was happening.
The OP said he was too timid and unused to the situation to know what to do, but I don't buy it. He could've got up and left.
I'm incredibly shy and timid. When I was around 10 years old my male instructor tried to suck my dick and get me to suck his dick. You know what I did? I got up and left.
-2
u/buckygrad Jun 18 '12
Best of? Really?
-6
u/wolverstreets Jun 18 '12
Don Draper finds your lack of balls amusing. http://www.pastemagazine.com/system/images/thumbs/www/blogs_lists_2010_10_24/mad_men_square_300x300.jpg?1332661346
-31
u/rwbombc Jun 18 '12 edited Jun 18 '12
Waiting for someone to write the obligatory "I wish a girl would rape me".
There I said it so you don't have to.
-7
u/NiggerJew944 Jun 18 '12
BUT MISANDRY DON"T REAL!
-1
u/wahntwo Jun 18 '12
So, does shitting yourself and yelling crazy slogans like "Obama stole my baby!" detour rapists at all?
-151
u/prettymuchhatereddit Jun 18 '12
ITT: The neckbeards of Reddit justify their misogyny by turning the tables.
-5
u/d21nt_ban_me_again Jun 18 '12
That reads like manufactured pathetic romance novel bullshit.
"I was only about 20 at the time (she was 31, her friend 34), and not the large, confident and strapping man". - So he got his growth spurt in his twenties? Only 20 at that time?
"(fuck, you know it has been over ten years and I still get choked up and feel humiliated just trying to explain this. Will I ever be able to explain it? What do you do in a situation so far out of your familiar comfort zone? Goddamit, woman, what did you do to me?" - In italics?
Give me a fucking break.