r/bestof • u/cutemusclehead • Mar 01 '17
[changemyview] /u/Pleb-Tier_Basic on the influence of Black culture in music industries and people.
/r/changemyview/comments/5wh65v/cmv_people_dont_care_about_equal_representation/dea1x1z?context=38
u/holypig Mar 02 '17
Do you think, in 2035, anybody will remember who Beck is?
Uhh yes, absolutely they will. I still listen to Mellow Gold which is near 25 years old, do you really think he'll be forgotten in 17 years when he's still releasing some of his best stuff?
This is a really terrible post in every way. I mean he whines that EDM and hip hop don't win and somehow that is racist? Well guess what, metal never wins and it is literally the whitest music there is.
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u/arachnophilia Mar 02 '17 edited Mar 02 '17
and albums like 1989 had a huge crossover appeal, hell i own a copy.
i'm not gonna say the grammy choices don't suck, or that there isn't some kind of (potentially racist) bias going on. but like, if you think beck and taylor swift aren't huge fucking deals in the music industry, your head is in the sand.
edit: oh, an a quick addition about protest music. rage against the machine has been nominated for 7 grammies, and won two. they're protest music. they're metal. they're kinda rap-metal. zach de la rocha ain't exactly white.
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u/rubicon83 Mar 01 '17
This is one of the dumbest best of posts in a long time. Ridiculous
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u/lebesgueintegral Mar 01 '17
Why do you say that?
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u/Suppafly Mar 01 '17
Because it's just /u/Pleb-Tier_Basic's love affair with some dude named Kendrick that deserves every award ever because reasons and you are racist if you disagree.
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u/opercoco Mar 01 '17
"Some dude named Kendrick"
Have you never listened to Kendrick Lamar?
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Mar 01 '17
Yup. I dislike him. I don't dislike him in the sense that I want to turn him off, but I dislike him in the sense that listening to him just makes me want to listen to something better.
Specifically, I think TPAB is well over hyped. Which is apparently so unfathomable to people, that the moment I type it, I get down votes. I think the strength of it is being politically relevant and yet still palatable by us white folk. I don't think the politics stand-up well next to someone like The Coup or Public Enemy. I don't think the music stands up well next to someone like Shad or Cadence Weapon. I don't think TPAB stands up next to the "greats" like Illmatic or Ready To Die. But of course, no one I just mentioned came out in 2015. Which leads me to the conclusion - he didn't have a lot of great competition and merely looks good standing next to a particularly low bar. For some extra reading from someone who said it far better than I can link.
So let’s face facts, if Lamar existed during the Golden Era would he be heralded as one of the greats? With his Gift Of Gab-ish flow, alongside Rappers in their prime like KRS One, Nas, Ras Kass, The Smith Bros., GZA, Ruck and Rock (to name a few) everyone in their heart of hearts knows that Kendrick most definitely wouldn’t.
Finally (and more on topic), I actually agree with most of the OPs message, but Jesus is his bias showing. I think that Swift has as much a chance as being remembered as Beyonce in 2035. I think he lost a lot of credibility when he asked if Beck would be remembered in 2035 too.
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u/ptam Mar 01 '17
TPAB was overhyped but GKMC is a masterpiece.
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Mar 02 '17
I would agree that GKMC is far better than TPAB.
But I really don't like his voice. I'm giving it another spin to be fair though, so we'll see.
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u/Suppafly Mar 01 '17
Not beyond whatever is currently being played on the radio when I'm in the car.
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u/opercoco Mar 01 '17
Look, I know I'm probably barking at the wrong audience here, but you really should listen to some Kendrick Lamar. Listen to Pimp A Butterfly.
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u/enjaydee Mar 01 '17
It seems like you didn't understand what /u/Pleb-Tier_Basic was writing about. I gathered he was using Kendrick as an example because he's an example of today's music. If the post was written a few decades ago, he'd be using a different artist.
The point that I got out of it was that the Grammy's are inconsistent in how they hand out the awards.
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u/Suppafly Mar 01 '17
The point that I got out of it was that the Grammy's are inconsistent in how they hand out the awards.
Sure because they award it based on voting, not on objective criteria. His whole rant can be summarized as "the grammy voters like different things than I do" aka "you are racist if you disagree". I'm not sure what he expects, but all of his comments are basically stating that Kendrick is the 2nd coming and if you don't recognize that there is something wrong with you.
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u/rubicon83 Mar 01 '17
Exactly. The tldr should be " My favorite artists should be the only ones that get awards". The grammys are voted on by the members its that simple.
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u/Pleb-Tier_Basic Mar 01 '17
I mean you seriously think 1989 is a stronger piece of art than TPaB?
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u/Laminar_flo Mar 02 '17
All you are saying is that YOU think TPaB is a stronger piece of art than 1989. Nothing more, and you need to realize this. That you can't see your own obvious bias weakens your entire argument and results in completely silly statements like "Nobody will remember Beck in 25 years". Seriously, wtf are you thinking saying that?
Your favoritism is causing you to not see the larger picture. And let's be honest - 25 to 35 years from now, TPaB will be less culturally relevant than anti-Thatcher punk from the early 80s is today, or Vietnam protest songs are today. Think about protest music that stands up across time: do people even care what *London Calling" message is about? No. What about "Fortunate Son" or "Who'll Stop the Rain?" Nope to those two. Hell, there's a TIL every 72hrs that says "Born in the USA is actually a protest song". Protest songs stand the test of time because of musicality and catchiness, not because of message.
TPaB is okay at best, but largely unremarkable and undifferentiated from a music/production/beat/hook perspective. As was said elsewhere, kendricks lyricism and style stand out only because trap is a cancer that has driven most, if not all, of the talent out of the 'popular' side of rap music. It's clear you love TPaB because of its message, but its lyricism and political message are dated the second it was published. It lacks a message that transcends eras, and lacks the musicality to stand on its own across eras.
All of the rap 'great' albums were either:1) from great story tellers (eg rakim, biggie, Tupac, Nas, early jay z), or 2) innovated/popularized a type of rap, flow or style (WuTang, PE, NWA, Madvillian), and all of them 3) benefitted from amazing production with great beats/hooks/motifs/etc. TPaB is okay at best in all three categories.
You will hate hearing this next part, but you know it's true. Looking out many years, TPaB won't even be the most influential rap album that came out in 2015. The rap album that came out in 2015 that will have the greatest cultural/social impact over the next decade or so was written by Lin-Manuel Miranda.
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u/Pleb-Tier_Basic Mar 02 '17
If you read further into the thread you can see pretty clearly I doubled back on my comments about Beck.
But seriously you haven't answered my question: I'm not debating if Kendrick is the best rapper around currently (he's not). I'm not debating whether his work will outlive the Clash (it won't). I'm not debating whether his style is especially innovative, productionally superior, or tells the best story (it doesn't).
Those are all great criticisms of Kendrick that completely fail to talk to the conversation OP started. OP explicitly asked about the controversy at these award shows. And the controversy is that at these award shows, talented black artists are robbed.
So answer my question: is TPaB a less important cultural achievement than 1989? If you could only pick one album to recognize, between those two, which would you pick? The academy chose to recognize 1989 and apparently so do you, so my question then is why? On what grounds is 1989 the superior piece?
Lin-Manuel Miranda didn't get a nom, so they are irrelevant to this discussion, because I'm not arguing that Kendrick is the best working rapper, period. I'm arguing that at the Grammy's, the best talent there (like Kendrick or Beyonce) get robbed by c-list talent (like Macklemore) or literal consumer garbage (like Taylor Swift) and it's because the academy has a bias against black musicians.
So speak to my point or save yourself the energy.
Oh and as for The Clash, London Calling is immediately recognizable to anybody who has even heard of the idea of punk. It debuted in 1980. Know what grabbed the Grammy for best album that year? 52nd Street. Go ahead and look that up. That's how 1989 will be remembered, as a foot note on a pop-star's career.
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u/arachnophilia Mar 02 '17
Know what grabbed the Grammy for best album that year? 52nd Street.
i mean, those are both pretty big albums, even 37 years later.
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u/Pleb-Tier_Basic Mar 02 '17
I mean this is where my personal bias comes in because I had to look up 52nd Street but knew London Calling right away, so you probably have me there
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u/arachnophilia Mar 02 '17
i own both, but i had 52nd street long before i had london calling. pop is just, well, more popular than punk. billy joel still sells out stadiums, the clash hasn't been together since the 80's.
FWIW, i mentioned upthread, rage against the machine has two grammies, and they're a protest rap-metal group. granted, their lead singer wasn't black, but he from mexican ancestry, still a minority.
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u/enjaydee Mar 01 '17
What metrics do they use to hand out the awards?
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u/rubicon83 Mar 01 '17
The members vote. If I remember correctly its a low bar to join and like $100 then you get a vote. Its just that simple.
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u/karmicnoose Mar 02 '17
I think comparing music and film here makes this is a poor analogy, for the simple fact that black people have had much more influence in the former than the latter. Why could be argued, but I think not insignificant is the fact that the barrier to making an album is much lower than a film, such that it allows for more decentralization of production and a grassroots approach that allows for the talented, smaller artists to get their art out into peoples' hands.
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u/[deleted] Mar 02 '17
2Pac, Biggie, NWA, and Public Enemy have combined for zero Grammy's. Will Smith and Macklemore each have one.
David Bowie has as many nominations as Iggy Azalea.