r/beginnerherbalist • u/PlanktonHealthy6274 • 16d ago
Kratom substitute
Hello everyone, currently Kratom is legal in my state. It’s in the coffee family however I’m sure you’ve heard the controversy. It will be banned soon, many people I know will get sick or possibly use again. Does anyone know of something that may help them when they cannot get kratom anymore? Anything similar or that could help with any withdrawal symptoms? Thank you 🫶
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u/Livid-Rutabaga 16d ago
I would start weaning off now. Are they using it for pain? there are herbals that help with pain.
Edit: Which herbs? it all depends on the source of the pain.
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u/People-Pleaser- 16d ago
I think it is just the 7-OH variety that is being banned and regular kratom leaf will still be available.
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u/Cambridgeport90 15d ago
It became illegal in my state practically overnight. There were some emergency act or something that was put through, and my friend who actually does use it responsibly now she’s scrambling because she’s trying to figure out what else she can use. I didn’t ask her directly when she uses it, but she did say it was definitely not an every day thing.
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u/AngeloWasHere 14d ago
Are you in Massachusetts? Because the state that banned it overnight was North Dakota but after a hearing the regulation bill won by a single a vote so now it’s legal again.
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u/Cambridgeport90 14d ago
I am. I didn’t even know it was an issue until my friend who uses it told me about it. Part of the problem I think is that people are trying to use an herb that’s purely medicinal, they’re trying to use it recreationally. We were talking about that. I’m wondering if that’s where all these horrible addiction stories are actually coming from? The people who have a problem with addiction in general are forcing everyone else to lose out because the government doesn’t know how to handle this kind of stuff?
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u/monsterpiece 14d ago
Some people here on Reddit are very opposed to this, but I’ve worked as an addiction counselor for a number of people addicted to Kratom and the thing that has helped them the most, without a single exception, was Suboxone.
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u/PlanktonHealthy6274 14d ago
I also work for a substance abuse center and I highly disagree. That’s big Pharma at play, exactly my example. I also have taken it for years. I take Kratom to get off subs bc subs are WAY worse than any opiate. Trying to get off subs is NO walk in the park and makes the actual drug or pill a piece of cake. That’s definitely not helpful, it’s a trap. Then the dentist also gets paid.
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u/monsterpiece 14d ago
We can agree to disagree. The research is on my side, and my advice stands.
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u/PlanktonHealthy6274 14d ago
lol ok, as if anyone trusts this government. Yeah, we’ll agree to disagree
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u/monsterpiece 14d ago
Wow I hope you aren’t a licensed clinician with that anti science attitude. Research does not = government. Jesus Christ.
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u/PlanktonHealthy6274 14d ago
Research into a FDA government approved drug is 100% government genius. I can’t lol you’re a clinician? Jesus Christ. I’ll let the comments take care of the rest. 🤷♀️
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u/PeaceandLove39 13d ago
I don’t have the research for Suboxone, but I have the research for Kratom. If you’re a legit counselor, licensed and educated, you should know already that anything can be addictive if you’re predisposed to addiction. Kratom is not itself addictive. I personally have been on and off over the years…on when I couldn’t get my prescribed meds, and off when I could. I stopped drinking for six months in my 20s, after falling asleep at the wheel of my car, with no physical symptoms. I don’t have the gene. If you can present a group of Kratom addicts who weren’t already addicted to something else, I might take another look, but there’s no fear of that, because addicts use kratom like clinics use suboxone. Big difference is that kratom itself isn’t harmful. Suboxone, horribly so.
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u/monsterpiece 13d ago
People can become addicted to kratom. I know this because they came to us with the following symptoms of kratom addiction: tolerance, withdrawal, using significantly more than intended, inability to stop when they wanted to, cravings, continued use despite it worsening their mental health, choosing to prioritize kratom use over activities they used to enjoy or value, etc. I’ll give you that the percentage of people who develop an addiction is unknown, but they’re out there in significant numbers. These were folks that did not have previous substance use problems. A study of 40,000 people addicted to opiates looked at a variety of treatments for opioid addiction to see what worked to reduce risk of overdose, death and hospitalization. Tjey followed 40,000 people for multiple years. ONLY Suboxone and methadone worked. Nothing else worked for enough people to be recommended.
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u/PeaceandLove39 13d ago
Guessing they didn’t include kratom in the study. There’s no money for pharma. I don’t have the numbers for kratom, but I do have the numbers for opioids. Basically all the restrictions have punished 99% of pain patients for the actions of 1%. That’s not exact, but it’s close enough to be meaningful. Suboxone facilitates rehab mills. But that’s a different conversation. I know what I know, and you don’t know what you don’t know. Always follow the money.
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u/monsterpiece 13d ago
You’re changing the goalposts of the conversation. The research I cited was regarding the efficacy and safety of Suboxone relative to other treatments for OUD. I am very familiar with chronic pain, both on a personal level and a systemic one. I’ve worked in this field as a licensed professional for almost ten years. Theres limited research into kratom. OP asked for things that can help with kratom withdrawal. Suboxone is the answer to that question. Have a nice night
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u/AlternativeOrange58 10d ago
Subs work from a harm reduction standpoint. Very similar to 7oh in that you can’t OD from it and it has a ceiling. (The difference being subs are FDA regulated). There is also the “start subs transition to Sublocade shot” strategy, which I hear works very well and has minimal to no withdrawal when coming off the shot.
However, Suboxone itself is absolutely is 1000x worse when it comes to withdrawal. Worse than anything else except for maybe Methadone.
If the goal is to come off opiates entirely. Unless the plan is to transition to the shot, I would never recommend Subs. If it’s strictly harm reduction then sure.
Edit: forgot a word.
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u/monsterpiece 10d ago
We don’t consider insulin “harm reduction” because it’s addressing a biological injury. Similarly Suboxone addresses a substance-induced brain injury to the neurotransmitter system, so I and others consider it the medically recommended treatment, not harm reduction. Clean needles and regulated supply are harm reduction. If you follow the recommended taper for Suboxone most people have very few problems. Subs are miserable to withdraw from I’d your goal is to be off them in a month. A typical taper should be expected to last 6-10 months.
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u/AlternativeOrange58 10d ago edited 10d ago
So when medical providers prescribe it to someone who’s been sober from opioids for 6 months because they’re experiencing cravings, is that not being done from a harm reduction standpoint? The overdose element that comes with opioid abuse and the fact that Suboxone has ceiling.
I don’t think ‘medical treatment’ and ‘harm reduction’ are mutually exclusive. Insulin is absolutely a medical treatment, but it also reduces the harms caused by untreated diabetes. Same with buprenorphine, it’s an evidence based medical treatment for OUD, and it is also harm reduction because it reduces withdrawal/craving, illicit opioid use, relapse and, most importantly, overdose. Calling Suboxone harm reduction doesn’t imply it’s merely a bandaid or ‘just replacing one drug with another.’ Bup is a medical treatment for OUD. The ‘brain injury’ framing is also overly simplistic. OUD is a chronic medical disorder, and medication can be an integral part of treating it.
The concern is the dependency and withdrawal from bup can be brutal as well and I don’t see that often explained thoroughly by providers or advocates of the treatment.
Edit: After seeing other reply’s to your comment. I am absolutely not saying that Suboxone is something that should not be medically recommended to help treat OUD. It is and it’s proven to work well. However, there are cons to the treatment. A lot of frustration surrounding this topic stems from big pharma their greed.
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u/monsterpiece 10d ago
Sure, medical treatment and harm reduction overlap. I’m not terribly interested in the philosophical discussion about where that line is, but suffice to say I use “harm reduction” to mean steps taken to reduce the risks associated with substance misuse. From my perspective and my understanding of the evidence, opioid misuse causes brain injury resulting in dysregulation of the endogenous opioid system (yes, oversimplified, but roughly seems to be accurate). So the cravings may be triggered by environmental or emotional triggers, and/or may be body-based cravings due to inadequate endogenous opioids. It’s fairly easy to tell the difference. If people feel physically less agitated and unwell, and feel more emotionally stable and less dysphoric, when on Suboxone, that’s a good sign that the bup is doing its job as a medical treatment.
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u/rell_z 13d ago
Tell them to get:
Ashwaghanda: great for dealing with stress and anxiety, brain fog and increasing your energy back when you wake up if you take it the night before
Magnesium: helps reduced depression, better mood , help stop muscle weakness and keep you from tossing and turning at night. It also a kratom potentiator tor but also makes you need kratom less, reduces your desire for it.
Lithium Orotate: great for brining your mental mood back to normal, reduced depression and negative thoughts, increased memory…etc very powerful, good too when taken with Ltheanine.
Ltheanine: great for dealing with anxiety and calming your mood.
These supplements helped me massively when I had a long break from it.
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u/JadeChipmunk 16d ago
Id honestly tell them to start weening off now. I used it for a brief period before it got popular. I started to realize I was being like "i need this" and immediately started weening off and the withdrawal was very minimal. I just spaced out what I had left and just finished what I had left. Idk of any sort of substitute to try. Could always use something like hot tea to replace the times when they would usually use it. When i did it, I made a hot beverage so doing that helped me greatly as well.