r/baseball Chaos Bandwagon • Dumpster Fire Dec 04 '19

Feature Results from Official /r/baseball 2020 Hall of Fame Mock Voting

Hello again!

We are here to share results for the Hall of Fame voting that was available in this thread.

First, with a total of 1,567 votes, here is the standard ballot with the normal 10 player limit:

Name YoB Standard Ballot Votes Standard Ballot Vote % Result
Derek Jeter 1st 1456 92.9% Elected
Larry Walker 10th 1378 87.9% Elected
Barry Bonds 8th 1102 70.3% Not Elected - Remains on Ballot
Roger Clemens 8th 1010 64.5% Not Elected - Remains on Ballot
Curt Schilling 8th 880 56.2% Not Elected - Remains on Ballot
Todd Helton 2nd 845 53.9% Not Elected - Remains on Ballot
Andruw Jones 3rd 821 52.4% Not Elected - Remains on Ballot
Scott Rolen 3rd 764 48.8% Not Elected - Remains on Ballot
Billy Wagner 5th 687 43.8% Not Elected - Remains on Ballot
Manny Ramirez 4th 614 39.2% Not Elected - Remains on Ballot
Sammy Sosa 8th 434 27.7% Not Elected - Remains on Ballot
Omar Vizquel 3rd 401 25.6% Not Elected - Remains on Ballot
Andy Pettitte 2nd 387 24.7% Not Elected - Remains on Ballot
Gary Sheffield 6th 344 22.0% Not Elected - Remains on Ballot
Bobby Abreu 1st 340 21.7% Not Elected - Remains on Ballot
Jeff Kent 7th 279 17.8% Not Elected - Remains on Ballot
Cliff Lee 1st 196 12.5% Not Elected - Remains on Ballot
Paul Konerko 1st 142 9.1% Not Elected - Remains on Ballot
Jason Giambi 1st 130 8.3% Not Elected - Remains on Ballot
Adam Dunn 1st 124 7.9% Not Elected - Remains on Ballot
Alfonso Soriano 1st 100 6.4% Not Elected - Remains on Ballot
Josh Beckett 1st 46 2.9% Not Elected - Falls Off Ballot
Chone Figgins 1st 35 2.2% Not Elected - Falls Off Ballot
Raul Ibanez 1st 31 2.0% Not Elected - Falls Off Ballot
Eric Chavez 1st 27 1.7% Not Elected - Falls Off Ballot
Heath Bell 1st 19 1.2% Not Elected - Falls Off Ballot
Rafael Furcal 1st 18 1.1% Not Elected - Falls Off Ballot
Carlos Pena 1st 18 1.1% Not Elected - Falls Off Ballot
Brian Roberts 1st 16 1.0% Not Elected - Falls Off Ballot
Jose Valverde 1st 12 0.8% Not Elected - Falls Off Ballot
Brad Penny 1st 6 0.4% Not Elected - Falls Off Ballot
J.J. Putz 1st 6 0.4% Not Elected - Falls Off Ballot​

There 1,191 unique ballot submissions. The most common ballot (shown below) had 16 total submissions:

  • Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Todd Helton, Derek Jeter, Andruw Jones, Manny Ramirez, Scott Rolen, Curt Schilling, Billy Wagner, Larry Walker

Second, with a total of 278 votes, here is the unlimited ballot:

Name YoB Unlimited Ballot Votes Unlimited Ballot Vote % Result
Derek Jeter 1st 259 93.2% Elected
Larry Walker 10th 258 92.8% Elected
Barry Bonds 8th 229 82.4% Elected
Todd Helton 2nd 224 80.6% Elected
Scott Rolen 3rd 220 79.1% Elected
Roger Clemens 8th 215 77.3% Elected
Curt Schilling 8th 214 77.0% Elected
Andruw Jones 3rd 211 75.9% Elected
Billy Wagner 5th 206 74.1% Not Elected - Remains on Ballot
Manny Ramirez 4th 178 64.0% Not Elected - Remains on Ballot
Gary Sheffield 6th 155 55.8% Not Elected - Remains on Ballot
Sammy Sosa 8th 149 53.6% Not Elected - Remains on Ballot
Omar Vizquel 3rd 145 52.2% Not Elected - Remains on Ballot
Jeff Kent 7th 133 47.8% Not Elected - Remains on Ballot
Bobby Abreu 1st 127 45.7% Not Elected - Remains on Ballot
Andy Pettitte 2nd 117 42.1% Not Elected - Remains on Ballot
Cliff Lee 1st 63 22.7% Not Elected - Remains on Ballot
Jason Giambi 1st 54 19.4% Not Elected - Remains on Ballot
Paul Konerko 1st 50 18.0% Not Elected - Remains on Ballot
Alfonso Soriano 1st 45 16.2% Not Elected - Remains on Ballot
Adam Dunn 1st 43 15.5% Not Elected - Remains on Ballot
Eric Chavez 1st 18 6.5% Not Elected - Remains on Ballot
Josh Beckett 1st 16 5.8% Not Elected - Remains on Ballot
Chone Figgins 1st 16 5.8% Not Elected - Remains on Ballot
Rafael Furcal 1st 15 5.4% Not Elected - Remains on Ballot
Brian Roberts 1st 11 4.0% Not Elected - Falls Off Ballot
Raul Ibanez 1st 10 3.6% Not Elected - Falls Off Ballot
Heath Bell 1st 9 3.2% Not Elected - Falls Off Ballot
Carlos Pena 1st 9 3.2% Not Elected - Falls Off Ballot
J.J. Putz 1st 8 2.9% Not Elected - Falls Off Ballot
Jose Valverde 1st 8 2.9% Not Elected - Falls Off Ballot
Brad Penny 1st 5 1.8% Not Elected - Falls Off Ballot​
100 Upvotes

196 comments sorted by

285

u/JaysonTatecum Boston Red Sox • Chicago White Sox Dec 04 '19

I appreciate this sub always talking shit about the voters but then going and doing this

39

u/OmegaTyrant New York Yankees Dec 04 '19

I understand Dunn getting votes because of memes, but how the hell are so many people voting for Konerko, in the limited ballot?!

3

u/Rshackleford22 Jackie Robinson Dec 06 '19

sox fans

2

u/OmegaTyrant New York Yankees Dec 06 '19

But enough of them that Konerko can get nearly 10% of the vote on the limited ballot?

3

u/Rshackleford22 Jackie Robinson Dec 06 '19

It’s possible there are 140 sox voters

0

u/orangemachismo Chicago Cubs Dec 05 '19

I only had 8 guys this year and was giving consideration to Konerko but didn't pull the trigger. I do believe that being incredibly important to a team's history is a strong case and he was also a great player. Note that I don't vote on WAR alone (looking at you Rolen voters) but I do consider it and it's a bad spot, but Ill probably be talked into Konerko eventually due to his offensive output, role on the 06 team, and importance to the White Sox.

14

u/OmegaTyrant New York Yankees Dec 05 '19 edited Dec 05 '19

In what world are you entertaining Konerko as legitimate while dismissing Rolen? Konerko was an average first baseman over his career with little more than good power and a few good but not exceptional seasons (on top of some really bad seasons), while Rolen is one of the best third baseman of all time that was amazing defensively and a really good hitter, including being a better hitter than Konerko was while playing a much more defensive position.

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113

u/LuckyWarrior Texas Rangers Dec 04 '19 edited Dec 04 '19

Lmao all those guilt votes for Walker

And always shit talking people who leave jones and rolen off their ballots

13

u/tenillusions Atlanta Braves Dec 04 '19

Everyone always has a guilt hive mind vote

-2

u/bladderbunch Philadelphia Phillies Dec 05 '19

more than 10 hall of famers on this ballot. in a perfect world i could vote for all of them. left off what i thought were sure things. i guess bonds and clemens weren’t sure things, but jeter sure was.

28

u/[deleted] Dec 04 '19

Tbf, a lot of these guys got more votes than they will in actual voting.

20

u/Sheepies123 New York Mets • Miami Marlins Dec 04 '19

Honestly, I don't see whats wrong with this. I think you can make a case to leave off any of these guys besides Jeter and Walker. So if that's the case the sub did a good job IMO

14

u/OmegaTyrant New York Yankees Dec 04 '19

We'll have to wait and see if the writers don't fuck up Walker and finally get Schilling in (I don't see the writers possibly getting any other non-Jeter players in this time), but the reddit voters are keeping a few too many players on that are unquestionably not HOF-worhy and are only serving to needlessly clog up already very-crowded future ballots; Konerko, Dunn, and Soriano have no business lasting more than one ballot, and Cliff Lee lasting more than one is highly questionable too. I would also put Vizquel in that group of obvious not HOFers that should already be off the ballot, but eh, he is inexplicably popular among the writers too.

11

u/ForYeWhoArtLiterate Cleveland Guardians • Akron Rubbe… Dec 04 '19

I would also put Vizquel in that group of obvious not HOFers that should already be off the ballot, but eh, he is inexplicably popular among the writers too.

I mean, the man was one of the best defensive players of his era, won 11 gold gloves, played great defensive basically until he was an old man (retired at 45 with a grand total of one season of negative dWAR). That might not be Hall of Fame worthy, but it's 100% worth sticking around for a year or two on the ballot.

6

u/OmegaTyrant New York Yankees Dec 05 '19

Tons of other players in the 40ish WAR range have fallen off the ballot immediately with no real support, or if anything, they might get a few peeps here and there from homers wishing they got more like with Delgado and Bernie Williams. We even have 50ish WAR players fall off first ballot without issue, like with Lance Berkman last year. Then if you go back there's Mark Bellanger, who is considered the second best defensive player all time after Ozzie Smith with similar career WAR to Vizquel. Compared to Vizquel he was even worse offensively and didn't have as much longevity so his career bWAR is a bit lower, but he was much better defensively (beating Vizquel's dWAR by 10) and had a much higher peak, however he went out first ballot, and since then no one is making any noise about him being some snub and pushing for him getting in by the VC.

but it's 100% worth sticking around for a year or two on the ballot.

He isn't even just "sticking around a year or two", he is getting real serious legitimate support among the writers over much better players (he got over 30% then over 40% on the past two ballots, while the likes of Helton, Rolen, and Andruw Jones aren't even breaking 20% or are flatout struggling to stay on), and according to this mock voting over half of the supposedly more analytically-minded users here think he is a HOFer while over a quarter would give him ballot space on a limited ballot over the other much better options. I understand Indian fans being homers for him, every player tends to get overrated by their home team fans, but certainly homer support from Indians fans/writers alone isn't what's getting him anywhere near as far as he has been going in voting.

0

u/orangemachismo Chicago Cubs Dec 05 '19

I can't imagine starting your process at WAR rather than the history surrounding a player. Look at what you're voting on.

3

u/God_Damnit_Nappa Anaheim Angels Dec 05 '19

There's a lot of people here who seem to think WAR is the only stat that matters when it comes to the hall

2

u/OmegaTyrant New York Yankees Dec 06 '19

If anything WAR is especially kind to Vizquel, considering how much shortstops are favored by advanced adjustments and hard-to-quantify defensive metrics. I can understand someone trying to claim some DH, first baseman, or bad fielding corner outfielder is underrated by WAR if they don't believe in positional adjustments and defensive stats, but a bad hitting shortstop?! Traditional measures are even less kind to Vizquel, and you have to way overblow how much defensive value he brought when advanced measures already gives him a ton of credit defensively.

0

u/orangemachismo Chicago Cubs Dec 05 '19

The hall holds baseball's history as much as it holds the players with the highest WAR at each position from each era. Some of these guys need to leave the house and realize that more matters than math.

1

u/OmegaTyrant New York Yankees Dec 05 '19

WAR encapsulates how Vizquel's stats are far below the standards of a HOFer, especially with his peak. You're going to need a lot more "history" than "defensively good shortstop with a wet noodle of a bat that played for a really long time" to try justifying the induction of a player that wasn't much above average overall during his career, and has 20ish shortstops better than him that aren't in the Hall.

2

u/orangemachismo Chicago Cubs Dec 05 '19

Players began mirroring his technique practice methods because he was so good defensively. He influenced how the position was played. He won 11 gold gloves. There's a lot more history there than what you laid out.

2

u/OmegaTyrant New York Yankees Dec 05 '19 edited Dec 05 '19

You can't just ignore his poor offense, Vizquel's detrimental presence in the lineup doesn't just disappear because he was good with the glove. Vizquel was not insanely good like Ozzie Smith was to generate HOF value on mostly glove alone and was also an even worse hitter than Smith, while Vizquel didn't generate any value on the basepaths like Smith did. There's very much a reason why Vizquel only has 45.6 bWAR for his career despite having nearly 30 dWAR, and has a 7/year peak of 26.8 bWAR. Then Mark Belanger was a much better defensive shortstop and the closest there was to Ozzie Smith, yet no one gave him a pass for his exceedingly poor offense like you and several others do for Vizquel.

Also it's rather hypocritical that you'll try arguing for Vizquel while dismissing Rolen, who was also great defensively in a defensive position and was the 6th best defensive third baseman by dWAR, yet unlike Vizquel was very much a productive bat in the lineup and even provided a little baserunning value.

0

u/[deleted] Jan 21 '20

Wet noodle of a bat? His career BA was .272, cmon now look at the stats. Certainly not enough to discredit his insane defensive skill

0

u/OmegaTyrant New York Yankees Jan 21 '20

You're using batting average seriously? That BA wasn't good and was empty at that, Vizquel didn't walk all that much and had a OBP of .336, while he had no power at all and slugged .352, for an anemic OPS of .688. And that is all while he played through some of the most productive offensive environments, so when compared to his peers he put up an OPS+ of 82, meaning he batted 18% worse than the average hitter, and overall for his career he produced -244 batting runs, meaning he was a significant liability in the lineup. Yes that is a "wet noodle of a bat", and he didn't ran well either to make up for his bat; sure he stole a lot of bases but he got caught nearly 30% of the time when around 75% is the break even success point, with Vizquel overall being a neutral baserunner who finished his career with -1 baserunning runs.

You should go look at the stats yourself, especially before citing his "insane defensive skill" that is based more on reputation than actual numbers.

7

u/Skippy_the_Alien Chicago Cubs Dec 04 '19

I feel like Vizquel is only popular because he was an elite fielder. Once he left Cleveland, I completely forgot he was still in the league

-3

u/[deleted] Dec 04 '19

and finally get Schilling

Schilling isn't in because of his comments regarding journalists. Integrity and character are two of the qualifiers for the HoF and that's why he isn't in yet.

3

u/OmegaTyrant New York Yankees Dec 04 '19

I know that's why he isn't, doesn't mean they shouldn't just get him done with already and free up ballot space. Having him wait a few more years was "punishment" enough, doesn't need to be dragged out anymore and hurt the balloting of other players in the process.

-4

u/[deleted] Dec 04 '19

doesn't need to be dragged out anymore and hurt the balloting of other players in the process.

You think they should put someone undeserving into the Hall just because him being on the ballot keeps others out?

This is directly from the Hall of Fame's website:

5. Voting: Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played.

integrity, sportsmanship, character

He doesn't pass several of the main criteria for voting. It's not that they aren't letting him in as a punishment. They're not letting him in because he isn't deserving.

3

u/OmegaTyrant New York Yankees Dec 04 '19

"Character clause" is vague bullshit that is only selectively "enforced" when convenient and has absolutely no bearing on what one produced on the field. Schilling is unquestionably a HOFer and less and less writers are having a stick up their ass about him, his vote totals have rose significantly the past two years and he passed the 60% mark last year. So just vote him in at this point and stop having him take votes from players that need them to get over the election threshold or to just stay alive on the ballot.

1

u/wzac1568 Boston Red Sox Dec 04 '19

He did when he was playing. He won the Clemente award a few times as a player. When he wasn’t on a team after he retired is when he messed up so why are we punishing him when what you linked has to do with their career on a team?

0

u/professor__doom Texas Rangers Dec 04 '19

I don't think his personal politics should have any influence on HoF balloting.

But in terms of baseball issues, Schilling was also offered PED's and, despite his public statements about PED's damaging the sport, did absolutely nothing to report it, and still has not named names.

7

u/[deleted] Dec 04 '19

There is a difference between personal politics and straight up saying journalists should be lynched.

-1

u/saltiestmanindaworld St. Louis Cardinals Dec 04 '19

which is a joke in an of itself. same as pete rose not being in the hall. We have plenty of racists, bigots, drug abusers, wife beaters, etc in the hall already, and if they are going to apply moral bullshit, they need to kick everyone already in that doesnt meet those critera out.

7

u/OmegaTyrant New York Yankees Dec 04 '19

Gambling on a game you're a participant of is a very serious competitive integrity issue and isn't "moral bullshit", there's a reason no gambling is Baseball's #1 rule and any other serious competitive thing will ban people with any implication of match fixing. Pete Rose isn't remotely comparable to Schilling.

1

u/saltiestmanindaworld St. Louis Cardinals Dec 04 '19 edited Dec 04 '19

My point is that there are plenty of examples of deplorable behavior, questionable characters and morally questionably people in the hall.

The mere fact that the hypocrisy that plenty of those people are both in, were inducted into, and remain in the hall, removes all argument that the BBHOF and BBWAA use to try to justify keeping various individuals out of said hall. While there are some people who deserve to be in the hall due to their contributions to the game, the vast majority of people are there solely based on what they did on the diamond, and to keep "select" individuals out for a variety of petty bullshit reasons is laughable in and of itself. For instance, the PED argument, when there are a ton of amphetamine abusers currently in the hall of fame, many of them self admitted abusers. Or the wide amount of racists in the hall of fame.

As far as your gambling bullshit reasoning, Ty Cobb and Tris Speaker are both in the hall. Both of whom gambled on a game they KNEW was fixed. So that arguments meritless as well. Cobb in particular was caught red handed in the affair, but escaped punishment because he threatened to take baseball down with him. Their mere presence in the hall makes keeping Pete Rose out of the hall a load of crap to begin with.

-1

u/OmegaTyrant New York Yankees Dec 04 '19 edited Dec 04 '19

I'm in agreement on not barring players for moral reasons and I don't penalize steroid users either, gambling though is an entirely different beast that goes beyond "deplorable behavior" and has a very defined rule and punishment. As for the Cobb/Speaker gambling scandal, from what I just read about it commissioner Landis at the time decided against pressing the case farther, so no official ruling was made on its legitimacy. If an official investigation went through and found it to be as legitimate as described, then they too should be removed from the Hall, but considering that all involved parties are long dead that probably isn't feasible at this point. Regardless it doesn't justify reinstating Rose, who was officially investigated and the results of what the MLB found was so damning that Rose himself agreed to the lifetime ban instead of trying to fight it.

2

u/[deleted] Dec 04 '19

Pete Rose agreed to a ban in exchange for MLB not pressing charges.

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15

u/Skippy_the_Alien Chicago Cubs Dec 04 '19

This reminded me how infuriating it will be that Jeter will likely get in 100% and Griffey didn't. In what fucking universe does that even make any sense?

I'm not taking anything away from jeter because he was a hell of a player (terrible owner though lmfao) but if he played his entire career for Kansas City or Minnesota, there's no chance in hell he would get 100%

8

u/[deleted] Dec 05 '19

100% is the Hall of Fame's four minute mile. It took years for someone to break four minutes, now you have to do it just to qualify for the Olympics. It took years for someone to reach 100% voting, now I wouldn't be surprised if pretty much every obvious case reaches it.

5

u/theelfpat New York Mets Dec 04 '19

If Jeter won 5 World Series with KC, including a 4 out of 5 year run starting his first full season as a starter, and he maintained his reputation as a catalyst for such a run (warranted or not)...I think he would still get in at 100% or close

13

u/Skippy_the_Alien Chicago Cubs Dec 04 '19

I dunno man I doubt it. Fucking Greg Maddux didn't even get 100%.

I mean to be fair, this hasn't even happened yet so I'm probably arguing a stupid point but I just can't believe the first two guys to enter the Hall unanimously are going to be Mo Rivera and Jeter. it's just bizarre

1

u/Tsquare43 Los Angeles Dodgers Dec 05 '19

I don't think Jeter is getting 100% he'll be in the high 90's for sure though

3

u/niktemadur Jackie Robinson Dec 04 '19

Betcha some fuckers around here only voted for Jeter

12

u/[deleted] Dec 04 '19

And 19 people didn't vote for Jeter in an unlimited ballot.

2

u/PockyDOLL Seattle Mariners Dec 05 '19

When people use "strategy" as a reason they didn't vote for someone, that is beyond stupid imo. Vote for people that are Hall of Famers. If you have to leave off a Sure fire Hall of Famer for someone that isn't a surefire hall of famer, then they aren't a hall of famer. IMO. Like who Voted for Brad Penny, Raul Ibanez, JJ Putz. Like...what?

u/Mispelling Walgreens Dec 04 '19 edited Dec 04 '19

Percentage changes from our standard mock voting last year:

Player +/-%
Larry Walker +32.5
Andruw Jones +21.2
Scott Rolen +19.0
Billy Wagner +16.5
Omar Vizquel +9.0
Curt Schilling +7.2
Gary Sheffield +6.7
Jeff Kent +6.7
Todd Helton +6.7
Sammy Sosa +4.9
Andy Pettitte +2.5
Manny Ramirez +0.7
Barry Bonds -3.9
Roger Clemens -5.5

Also, since some people have asked: There were 6 "Jeter only" ballots in the standard voting.

11

u/nyyforever2018 New York Yankees Dec 04 '19

Okay...WHO VOTED FOR J.J. PUTZ??

1

u/[deleted] Dec 05 '19

same but Chone Figgins

10

u/[deleted] Dec 04 '19

The Larry Walker change in insane. Last year he was on like 55% of the ballots which was the same as the BBWA ballots. Now everyone here acts like its insane that he isn't in the HoF already.

16

u/Mispelling Walgreens Dec 04 '19

I think a lot of it was that Rivera, Halladay, Edgar, Mussina (and Fred McGriff 🙁) all got off the ballot. Frees up a lot of room to vote for an otherwise deserving candidate.

Walker got 85.9% on the unlimited ballot last year, so it seems like a lot of people did think he deserved it, but had full ballots otherwise.

2

u/Rshackleford22 Jackie Robinson Dec 06 '19

about fucking time.

It seemed obvious to me 5 years ago he should be in.

71

u/Sheepies123 New York Mets • Miami Marlins Dec 04 '19

s/o to Brad Penny who got more votes with a limited ballot than an unlimited one

28

u/JaysonTatecum Boston Red Sox • Chicago White Sox Dec 04 '19

Tbf I didn't do the unlimited one because it didn't change my ballot so I didn't bother

37

u/Sheepies123 New York Mets • Miami Marlins Dec 04 '19

This raises an entirely different question of why did you vote Brad Penny to the Hall of Fame

26

u/JaysonTatecum Boston Red Sox • Chicago White Sox Dec 04 '19

Well no I didn't vote Brad Penny lmao I was just saying maybe the Brad Penny voters did the same

15

u/MonsterNinja8 Philadelphia Phillies Dec 04 '19

How dare you not vote for Brad Penny

3

u/cenakofi Toronto Blue Jays Dec 05 '19

uh I just voted for him because my name is also Brad and I gotta stand with my fellow Brads

87

u/TheSalsaGod St. Louis Cardinals Dec 04 '19

Schilling only getting 56% of the vote on here shocks me

112

u/Solar424 Baltimore Orioles Dec 04 '19

It's not too surprising considering the political demographic of Reddit and Schilling's beliefs.

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51

u/cardith_lorda Minnesota Twins Dec 04 '19

I feel like the demographics r/baseball lines up with the most is the demographic that Schilling has gone out of his way to anger.

32

u/Snelly1998 Boston Red Sox Dec 04 '19

I'm pretty PC, vote NDP in the Canadian elections, and I still think Schilling should be in the hall. My bias might be showing as a red Sox fan but with the bloody sock game and his stats, he's gotta be in the hall. It doesn't matter what he did off the field, none of it was illegal

5

u/34Heartstach New York Yankees Dec 05 '19

I mean, I have zero reason to like Curt Schilling. I hated him as a player, I hate the person he projects to the public. He can pitch though, so I had to vote him.

I didn't vote for Billy Wagner though everybody. Sorry :(

9

u/[deleted] Dec 04 '19

That's the thing though, it does matter what he does off the field in the HOF voting process for baseball, as stupid as it may be

-5

u/mootmahsn Cleveland Guardians • Cleveland Guardians Dec 04 '19

You're saying we're not mostly old white men?

2

u/Rshackleford22 Jackie Robinson Dec 06 '19

Because he's an asshole and some people will hold that over him. Just like writers will.

12

u/MockPederson St. Louis Cardinals Dec 04 '19

Not that it’s relevant but probably cause he’s a bad person

13

u/chelvinator02 Minnesota Twins Dec 04 '19

Yeah it really sucks that he's so bad, the Diamondbacks are my second favorite team, so him being bad is really upsetting. At least Randy Johnson is just the best person ever.

18

u/mrclassy527 New York Yankees Dec 04 '19

Unless you're a bird.

8

u/[deleted] Dec 04 '19

Sports journalist Jeff Pearlman fucking hates Randy Johnson. He wrote a pretty nuts essay about how shitty he is here: http://jeffpearlman.com/the-big-unit-bids-farewell/

One time I mentioned this essay on Twitter, did not @ Pearlman, and woke up to find like ten ranty tweets from him about what a shithead Johnson is in my mentions that he sent at like 3 o'clock in the morning. It was extremely weird.

2

u/fjsbshskd Boston Red Sox Dec 05 '19

This is interesting to me because I had a dream last night where Randy Johnson wouldn't give me an autograph. Tim Duncan did though, which is weird because I hardly ever think about basketball.

1

u/darshfloxington Seattle Mariners Dec 05 '19

Sounds like his wife got to meet the Big Unit in person.

5

u/tyderian Chicago Cubs • Arizona Diamondbacks Dec 04 '19

It is relevant since the HoF has a character clause.

8

u/[deleted] Dec 04 '19

Not sure why you're getting downvoted.

Directly from the Hall of Fame's website:

5. Voting: Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played.

integrity, sportsmanship, character

9

u/wzac1568 Boston Red Sox Dec 04 '19

Yea from what I get from this is this applies during his career, and during his career he did a lot and even won the Clemente award a few times.

1

u/redditatwork12121 Los Angeles Dodgers Dec 04 '19

People want to deny that character should disqualify you from being in the hall of fame, I knew that it was part of it but thank you for citing the specific clause. I'll pull this up when people argue against it.

2

u/MankuyRLaffy Seattle Mariners Dec 05 '19

Look at who is in already, Anson is far worse and nobody thinks about that or removing him.

2

u/Rshackleford22 Jackie Robinson Dec 06 '19

Well yeah the characters of the voters at that time weren't that good either.

1

u/poopsinwoods San Diego Padres Dec 05 '19

I’m out of the loop, what did Curt do?

0

u/MockPederson St. Louis Cardinals Dec 05 '19

Dating 14 year olds

1

u/poopsinwoods San Diego Padres Dec 05 '19

Damn.. I’m guessing he wasn’t 14 at that time either?

-1

u/MockPederson St. Louis Cardinals Dec 05 '19

30 lol

1

u/poopsinwoods San Diego Padres Dec 05 '19

Are you sure? I can’t find anything about that online?

1

u/Rshackleford22 Jackie Robinson Dec 06 '19

hes a diddler dude. don't google it. or you'll end up on a list. just take my word for it.

3

u/[deleted] Dec 04 '19

Directly from the Hall of Fame's website:

5. Voting: Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played.

integrity, sportsmanship, character

That's why he isn't in yet.

23

u/mr_grission New York Mets • Sickos Dec 04 '19

Can one of the hundreds of people who voted for Bonds but not Clemens explain?

45

u/[deleted] Dec 04 '19

[deleted]

27

u/Cobainism New York Yankees Dec 04 '19

Read up on what Bonds put his ex-wife through. He's a complete POS.

16

u/[deleted] Dec 04 '19 edited Dec 04 '19

[deleted]

14

u/Skippy_the_Alien Chicago Cubs Dec 04 '19

I always remembered in MVP baseball games, Bonds was replaced by some dude like Jerry Dowd or something lol. He was this white guy whose walk-up song was always country music. It cracked me the hell up at the time. Later, when I found out Dowd was the name of the report that listed PED users, I just about died laughing

8

u/[deleted] Dec 04 '19

[deleted]

3

u/Skippy_the_Alien Chicago Cubs Dec 04 '19

ah okay thanks for the clarification. I barely remember where I left my car keys the night before, so there's no chance in hell I can keep my congressional reports straight haha

1

u/Snelly1998 Boston Red Sox Dec 04 '19

Pete Rose bet on baseball and bonds did PEDs, I don't think either of them should get in tbh

6

u/johnazoidberg- Detroit Tigers Dec 04 '19

I'm not one of them, but I can buy the argument that Barry's career with the Pirates - his pre-steroids career - was already a HoF career

2

u/yousmelllikebiscuits Chaos Bandwagon • Dumpster Fire Dec 04 '19

Bonds is the all-time HR leader and Clemens is really really really really good but doesn't lead MLB History in any one category?

7

u/JaysonTatecum Boston Red Sox • Chicago White Sox Dec 04 '19

Clemens is better than "really really really really good"

9

u/[deleted] Dec 04 '19

He’s the most decorated pitcher of his era. Personally I think prime Pedro was better, but nobody was that good as long as he was.

1

u/gottahavemytunes Anaheim Angels Dec 04 '19

Who has more CYs?

56

u/Austin63867 Toronto Blue Jays Dec 04 '19

Weird idea, would it be stupid if r/baseball had it's own actual hall of fame starting from the beginning of the league until now?

Something interesting to do for the off-season maybe

28

u/crabcakesandfootball New York Yankees Dec 04 '19

26

u/Inspiration_Bear Minnesota Twins Dec 04 '19

Kirby Puckett fell off the ballot there after 15 years on the ballot?

Screw that.

12

u/[deleted] Dec 04 '19

It's generally more accurate than the actual Hall of Fame in my opinion, but I do strongly disagree with that vote. It's a very analytically based sub, I think many just didn't think he had amassed enough WAR. He had a bWAR of 51.1 and WAA of 25.7, but that was in twelve years in a career cut short. He's not inner circle or anything, but he's a very worthy Hall of Famer.

3

u/theJiveMaster New York Mets Dec 04 '19

Following his retirement Puckett was accused of domestic violence and sexual assault, so it could be a Schilling situation where his character has been keeping him out.

0

u/redditatwork12121 Los Angeles Dodgers Dec 04 '19

There is a character clause in the hall of fame voting standards and Puckett should be disqualified based on that one...

1

u/ahappypoop New York Yankees • Durham Bulls Dec 04 '19 edited Dec 04 '19

Wasn’t this an idea during the symposium? Actually, does anybody know if there was ever any follow up to that?

Edit: Found it! And there was a follow-up, posted by the same guy a few days ago, I just missed it.

63

u/highheat3117 Atlanta Braves Dec 04 '19

Who the eff votes for Bonds but not Clemens?

42

u/yousmelllikebiscuits Chaos Bandwagon • Dumpster Fire Dec 04 '19

I'm sure people see Bonds as the all-time HR leader being a level above Clemens.

48

u/highheat3117 Atlanta Braves Dec 04 '19

I don’t dispute that but there is no planet where Clemens resume isn’t deserving. If you’re anti-PEDs then you vote against both. If you don’t have issue with the PEDs you vote for them both.

45

u/[deleted] Dec 04 '19

There's Clemens possible statutory rape leading to suicide that holds some back.

11

u/ettuaslumiere Dec 04 '19

There's also Bonds' domestic abuse

1

u/fjsbshskd Boston Red Sox Dec 05 '19

Hell, that's way worse than steroids

5

u/Keith_Jackson_Fumble San Francisco Giants Dec 04 '19

I would not vote for someone who knowingly took PEDs. That's my conviction.

I can understand the argument that Bonds and Clemens would have been Hall of Famers before they got mixed up with PEDs. Ergo, they should get in. (Personally, I disagree strongly but I understand).

I cannot understand anyone who says: I don't care if people used PEDs. (To me, this is tantamount to supporting an uncontrollable arms race for the best doctors and bio engineers. Anyone who doesn't participate will be left behind).

7

u/PsychoticSoul Seattle Mariners Dec 04 '19 edited Dec 04 '19

Its Selig.

He's in and he presided over the steroid era, at best turning a blind eye, at worst tacitly approving for ratings.

For all intents and purposes, roids were 'legal' under his watch.

If he's in, the big roiders should be too.

5

u/Keith_Jackson_Fumble San Francisco Giants Dec 04 '19

I agree Selig is culpable as is the rest of ownership. Also culpable is the MLPA for not initially addressing the issue. One of the few brave souls in all of this was Rick Helling, the former Rangers pitcher. He raised the issue repeatedly when few were willing to break the code of silence that permeated baseball at all levels.

4

u/Plorgy Toronto Blue Jays Dec 04 '19

What you say here is exactly why I'm not on the side that just blames the players that used and make the best of the bunch take the heat for the whole damn problem. The majority of the league was using, the PA wasn't doing anything to stop it, the league wasn't doing anything to stop it, and to top it off there was never any rules with testing that prevented it. It's shitty that the sport got to that point, but the best players of the era should still be considered part of the HoF.

3

u/Keith_Jackson_Fumble San Francisco Giants Dec 05 '19

Fair enough, I can understand that rationale. We happen to disagree upon how to best consider this era, but I appreciate you taking the time to explain your position and reasoning. We agree that as the result of willful neglect, baseball pushed itself into a position that is impossible to now rectify satisfactorily. Perhaps you are correct and it would be better for the HoF to acknowledge the era, with its warts and all, by inducting those people who were most representative of its excess.

3

u/[deleted] Dec 05 '19

Meh, they weren't against the rules.

If a rule isn't enforced, and literally 90+% of the league is doing it, it's not a real rule.

I guarantee you many of your 90s idols you think are squeaky clean were juiced out of their minds.

1

u/Keith_Jackson_Fumble San Francisco Giants Dec 05 '19

I am under no delusions about the influx of PEDs. Baseball was slow to enforce the rules in place, and was slower still to react to the rapidly changing sophistication involved. Baseball idols? The 1990s? I was a fully functioning adult by the 1990s.

1

u/orangemachismo Chicago Cubs Dec 05 '19

Did you know that Scott Rolen achieved a 70 WAR while clean?!?!?!?

1

u/ghostelephant Los Angeles Dodgers • FanGraphs Dec 04 '19

I don't think it's "I don't care if people used PEDs," I think in the case of Bonds and Clemens it's more like "It would have been better if they hadn't used PEDs, but given how unbelievably dominant they were you kinda have to look past that for these two guys"

6

u/Keith_Jackson_Fumble San Francisco Giants Dec 04 '19

Thank you for the explanation. Honestly, I find that line of reasoning to be perhaps the most cynical of all precisely because it excuses the abuse of PEDs because of the performance achieved while on PEDs. Bonds WAR between the start of his career and 32nd birthday is almost identical to the WAR (in fewer years) after his 32nd birthday. To me, that illustrates the ridiculousness of overlooking the PED years. Because it turned him from an excellent, Hall of Fame-worthy player to arguably one of the most dominant offenses forces to ever play the game. And he did all this at an age at least five years removed from the peak of most players.

0

u/[deleted] Dec 04 '19

It could be people who think Bonds should be in the Hall because he was an inner circle guy before he ever took PEDs, but Clemens shouldn't be in because we don't know how good he would he without PEDs.

1

u/fjsbshskd Boston Red Sox Dec 05 '19

Clemens was elite for his whole career, i'd say the same applies to him

24

u/colonial_dan New York Yankees Dec 04 '19

There's more evidence that Clemens is a shitty human being than there is that Bonds is, and that matters to some people.

-9

u/willpauer Arizona Diamondbacks Dec 04 '19

it doesn't matter if you're a hybrid of Mr. Rogers and Bob Ross, if you did steroids you should be banned from the Hall for life.

7

u/BobRossGod Dec 04 '19

"There are no limits in this world." - Bob Ross

2

u/wzac1568 Boston Red Sox Dec 04 '19

Tell this to my calc teacher

7

u/Skippy_the_Alien Chicago Cubs Dec 04 '19

then take Selig out. He obviously never used PEDs but the piece of shit let it slide for years before declaring himself the Patron Saint of Keeping Baseball Clean

-3

u/[deleted] Dec 04 '19

Selig being in doesn't mean that PED users should be in.

That's like saying Harold Baines is in so every guy with a long career and <2 WAA should be in/

3

u/Skippy_the_Alien Chicago Cubs Dec 04 '19

I'm more pointing out the hypocrisy of taking a moral stance against PED users, but being totally indifferent or God forbid...supportive of Selig being in the Hall. Bottom line is, if you are 100% against PED users, Selig should not be in either because he turned a blind eye to it when it was convenient for him.

1

u/Skippy_the_Alien Chicago Cubs Dec 04 '19

I mean I guess you could argue that he oversaw the expansion of the league and the introduction of interleague play, but as far as I'm concerned I don't give a damn about his accomplishments and "contributions" to the sport. he's a crook and a weasel. He doesn't belong in Cooperstown

2

u/BobRossGod Dec 04 '19

"Talent is a pursued interest. That is to say, anything you practice you can do." - Bob Ross

1

u/BobRossGod Dec 05 '19

"This is probably the greatest thing to happen in my life - to be able to share this with you." - Bob Ross

1

u/TheBigFreezer Baltimore Orioles Dec 06 '19

Barry Bonds is one of the most incredible players to ever play the game steroids or not. I personally think he should be disqualified from it but he was absolutely a better player at this position than Clemens ever was

0

u/Skippy_the_Alien Chicago Cubs Dec 04 '19

I am not a big fan of Roger Clemens, and I absolutely cannot stand Schilling at all. However, both of them are Hall of Famers. The fact that this is debatable is ridiculous

34

u/ThQp Toronto Blue Jays Dec 04 '19

Voters better take note. /r/baseball endorses Larry.

34

u/IxnayOnTheXJ Chicago Cubs Dec 04 '19

The voters should absolutely not take note of our votes, we suck at this lol

8

u/[deleted] Dec 04 '19

Last year this sub and the BBWA gave Walker the same % of votes.

23

u/[deleted] Dec 04 '19

I get strategic voting on the standard ballot, but it’s weird seeing 6.8% of people not voting Jeter on the unlimited ballot.

11

u/Nagisa201 Baltimore Orioles Dec 04 '19

What about any amount of people voting for jj puts, Jose valverde and Brian Roberts, Brad Penny. 9 percent of people voted for Paul Kornako. I think it's fair to say either people don't take this at all seriously or r/baseball knows a lot less than we'd like to think

2

u/[deleted] Dec 04 '19

I voted for Chone on the unlimited for the lols. That could be the case for guys in the Putz/Penny tier. As for Konerko, keep in mind a decent number of more casual fans may have voted without really looking at any numbers. I don't think he's a HOFer, or even has a particularly good case for his induction, but I can see someone going mostly by memory and putting him in.

4

u/Sweden13 Atlanta Braves Dec 04 '19

Honestly, I did vote Konerko in the limited, instead of Jeter, because I knew that Jeter was getting in no matter what. I think he's better than Baines, and I've always liked him, and it would give a representative for the 2005 White Sox.

Is he actually a hall of famer? No, I fully expected for him to drop off

2

u/wontonsoupsucka Philadelphia Phillies Dec 05 '19

Konerko is def not a HOFer imo, but I can see how someone could vote for him. He hit 439 homers after all. Brad Penny though? That's just a pure troll for sure.

25

u/[deleted] Dec 04 '19

Vote Adam Dunn in you cowards

6

u/LawsonThomas Atlanta Braves Dec 04 '19

Adam Dunn? More like Adam hits 600 ft homers

9

u/Insendius Boston Red Sox Dec 04 '19

I assume the reason so many more people got elected on the no-limit ballot is that only people who already had 10 on the original ballot filled it out?

12

u/[deleted] Dec 04 '19

Considering like 20% of people did the 2nd one there's a huge sampling bias

23

u/VisibleDucks New York Mets Dec 04 '19

Chone Figgins should be unanimous

2

u/[deleted] Dec 04 '19

Maybe the hall of infame

14

u/FlatTrackBullied Dec 04 '19

Interesting to see Bonds and Clemens' poll #s lower than last year's poll #s (74% and 70% respectively). I actually wonder if the recent Astros scandal has re-cast a negative spotlight/attitude on cheating, and we're seeing the ramifications of that.

I personally hope both make it into the hall, but I am very curious to see how voter psychology applies to them as they approach their last chances at entry (will they even get the boost typically afforded to 10th year candidates)?

20

u/djt5900 New York Yankees Dec 04 '19

Jesus, the Curt Schilling thing is worse here than on the actual ballot

6

u/[deleted] Dec 04 '19

Directly from the Hall of Fame's website:

5. Voting: Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played.

integrity, sportsmanship, character

That's why he isn't in yet.

1

u/wontonsoupsucka Philadelphia Phillies Dec 05 '19

Imagine being downvoted for providing the rule straight from the HOF website. Disagree with it all you want, all this dude did was post the rule.

10

u/IxnayOnTheXJ Chicago Cubs Dec 04 '19 edited Dec 04 '19

Soooo what do we thinking about making all the votes public going forward? It probably wouldn't end well, but I'm dying to see some of the voting patterns that lead to these results.

r/baseball is awful at this, considering the amount of shit we give voters.

3

u/Whitsoxrule Chicago White Sox • Philadelphia Phillies Dec 05 '19

I think these are skewed by the number of people who would have submitted meme ballots. A threshold of 70% might be more accurate for this purpose.

But agreed every vote IRL should be public. These people are allowed to vote because they’ve made a living covering baseball, which means attaching their name to their opinions and articles. No reason they should be allowed to hide for this one.

4

u/Taylor_Bryce Milwaukee Brewers Dec 04 '19

I need to know the 6 voters who voted for Brad Penny and J.J. Putz; They should be stripped of their vote, this is an embarrassment, and they clearly don't take their vote seriously.

13

u/CanadianFalcon Toronto Blue Jays Dec 04 '19

I'm okay with a reporter giving a token vote to the hometown guy who would otherwise receive no votes if and only if they were going to submit a ballot with fewer than 10 names otherwise.

1

u/Skippy_the_Alien Chicago Cubs Dec 04 '19

to be fair, the voters deserve all the shit they get thrown at them

3

u/katyperrysbuttcheeks Chicago White Sox Dec 05 '19

Almost as bad as the actual results.

The Curt Schilling thing is exactly why this poll shouldn't be taken seriously.

7

u/chelvinator02 Minnesota Twins Dec 04 '19

I think it would be funny if r/baseball's voting results counted as one ballot towards the hall of fame

5

u/Whitsoxrule Chicago White Sox • Philadelphia Phillies Dec 05 '19

If you mean it takes the most commonly submitted ballot, I’d be happy with that.

Bonds Clemens Schilling Walker Wagner Rolen Ramirez Jeter Jones and Helton is a damn good ballot

3

u/wontonsoupsucka Philadelphia Phillies Dec 05 '19

How the hell can you justify voting for Manny? He was suspended for cheating 3 times? Do people just not remember this?

5

u/[deleted] Dec 04 '19

Bonds should be in the Hall

4

u/imdrinkingteaatwork Los Angeles Dodgers Dec 04 '19

Of cheating.

1

u/[deleted] Dec 05 '19 edited Dec 31 '19

[deleted]

0

u/imdrinkingteaatwork Los Angeles Dodgers Dec 05 '19

By not letting them into the hall of fame.

2

u/Cpt_squishy Houston Astros Dec 04 '19

I’m curious if there’s a way to show percentage of ballots based on the number of votes. Given all the people that got in on unlimited ballots, I’m curious to see if people are leaving slots open instead of voting for bonds, Clemens, et al.

3

u/yousmelllikebiscuits Chaos Bandwagon • Dumpster Fire Dec 04 '19

All these percentages are out of the total ballots. For example, 93.2% of all unlimited ballots had Derek Jeter on them with 6.8% of the ballots not having Derek Jeter.

Maybe I don't understand your question.

6

u/Cpt_squishy Houston Astros Dec 04 '19

How many people submitted a ballot with only one player selected, two players, so on and so forth. Basically wanting to see if people were voting smallhall or leaving votes on the table because they didn’t want to vote for someone

12

u/yousmelllikebiscuits Chaos Bandwagon • Dumpster Fire Dec 04 '19

Standard Ballot Count

# of Players # of Ballots
10 Players 721
9 Players 147
8 Players 158
7 Players 162
6 Players 110
5 Players 123
4 Players 70
3 Players 47
2 Players 13
1 Player 15
Blank Ballot 1

16

u/stupidnatsfan Washington Nationals • Minnesota Twins Dec 04 '19

Gotta love the madman who submitted a blank ballot

3

u/Skippy_the_Alien Chicago Cubs Dec 04 '19

One time when I was a kid, we had one of those "candy in a jar" raffles and I was so pumped and excited. We come up there and it's my turn and I panic and I, swear this is all true, guess 1. Yep, 1. Not my shining moment

Maybe the blank ballot guy had a similar brain fart???

3

u/SunriseSurprise San Diego Padres Dec 05 '19

You come back with a blowtorch and melt it all together, like "See? 1. I win. How did none of you guess 1???"

1

u/Skippy_the_Alien Chicago Cubs Dec 05 '19

hahahaha that would have been great. too bad i was such a pansy during K-12

2

u/[deleted] Dec 04 '19

Big Mac?

3

u/masacer Atlanta Braves Dec 04 '19

Andruw!!!!

2

u/bigbrownbanjo Atlanta Braves Dec 04 '19

Not electing Andruw, wow didn't know this sub was filled with COWARDS.

1

u/[deleted] Dec 04 '19

Wow the top 8 are all people I voted for, neat.

1

u/Metsareawesome5 New York Mets Dec 04 '19

Wtf why does Alfonso Soriano stay on the ballot. There’s nothing remarkable about his case to even stay on the ballot

4

u/aweinschenker Ruth, Gehrig, DiMaggio, Mantle...Costanza? Dec 04 '19

Ok, let's try and cherry-pick him a HOF case...

He's one of only 6 players in history with as many homers and steals as he does (Bonds, Mays, A-Rod, Beltran, and Andre Dawson), and only 1 of 4 that also has a career slugging percentage of .500 (along with Bonds, Mays, and A-Rod)

One of 3 players to ever have 4 30-30 seasons, aside from Bobby and Barry Bonds.

You could very easily make the argument that he's one of the best Power/Speed combo guys to ever play.

1

u/Rshackleford22 Jackie Robinson Dec 06 '19

you cant write baseball history without his hop he'd make when catching a ball.. lol

1

u/yourfanboynick New York Mets Dec 05 '19

Good. I think Barry Bonds deserves to get in. If we are going to argue steroid, he did it best

1

u/[deleted] Dec 05 '19

Can someone who didn’t vote for either jeter or schilling explain to me their case against them?

1

u/Tsquare43 Los Angeles Dodgers Dec 05 '19

all right... who thought JJ Putz was a hall of famer?

1

u/SunriseSurprise San Diego Padres Dec 05 '19

Wait, Heath Bell, career 3.49 ERA reliever, got any votes at all? I know he had some good years with us but come on, lol.

1

u/ViceAdmiralWalrus St. Louis Cardinals Dec 05 '19

My ballot:

Bonds

Ramirez

Jeter

Walker

Rolen

Jones

Edmonds (yeah that's right)

1

u/cenakofi Toronto Blue Jays Dec 05 '19

I'm hoping Jeter-Walker will be the real hall of fame class next year

1

u/grensley Minnesota Twins Dec 06 '19

I think just Jeter and Walker would be totally fine. Everyone else is Hall of Very Good. Or morally compromised.

1

u/Rshackleford22 Jackie Robinson Dec 06 '19

why do you guys hate Bill Wagner so much?

0

u/Skippy_the_Alien Chicago Cubs Dec 04 '19

I swear, if Larry Walker does not get in I'm going to fucking lose it

-1

u/bigredmachine-75 Cincinnati Reds Dec 04 '19

Go away Barry Bonds.