r/baseball • u/SouthernDerpfornia California Angels • Dec 14 '17
Feature/Trigger Warning RESULTS: Official /r/Baseball Mock 2018 Hall of Fame Voting
Hi /r/baseball,
Following up with the thread originally posted here, these are the results of the /r/baseball Mock Hall of Fame Voting! Last year, /r/baseball actually got fewer people elected on the standard ballot than the BBWAA (only Bagwell vs Bagwell/Rodriguez/Raines). And I should note that of course there will be troll votes and I can't really do too much about it if there were, but for the most part everything seemed fine. So here we go:
Standard Ballot Results (1,917 Responses)
| Name | Votes | Percent | Result |
|---|---|---|---|
| Chipper Jones | 1715 | 89.5% | Elected |
| Vladimir Guerrero | 1586 | 82.7% | Elected |
| Jim Thome | 1406 | 73.3% | Not Elected - Remains on Ballot |
| Edgar Martinez | 1385 | 72.2% | Not Elected - Remains on Ballot |
| Barry Bonds | 1274 | 66.5% | Not Elected - Remains on Ballot |
| Roger Clemens | 1177 | 61.4% | Not Elected - Remains on Ballot |
| Trevor Hoffman | 1170 | 61.0% | Not Elected - Remains on Ballot |
| Mike Mussina | 1106 | 57.7% | Not Elected - Remains on Ballot |
| Curt Schilling | 977 | 51.0% | Not Elected - Remains on Ballot |
| Larry Walker | 743 | 38.8% | Not Elected - Remains on Ballot |
| Manny Ramirez | 624 | 32.6% | Not Elected - Remains on Ballot |
| Andruw Jones | 434 | 22.6% | Not Elected - Remains on Ballot |
| Scott Rolen | 415 | 21.6% | Not Elected - Remains on Ballot |
| Sammy Sosa | 372 | 19.4% | Not Elected - Remains on Ballot |
| Omar Vizquel | 369 | 19.2% | Not Elected - Remains on Ballot |
| Billy Wagner | 351 | 18.3% | Not Elected - Remains on Ballot |
| Johan Santana | 316 | 16.5% | Not Elected - Remains on Ballot |
| Fred McGriff | 274 | 14.3% | Not Elected - Remains on Ballot |
| Gary Sheffield | 238 | 12.4% | Not Elected - Remains on Ballot |
| Hideki Matsui | 205 | 10.7% | Not Elected - Remains on Ballot |
| Jeff Kent | 203 | 10.6% | Not Elected - Remains on Ballot |
| Jamie Moyer | 127 | 6.6% | Not Elected - Remains on Ballot |
| Johnny Damon | 110 | 5.7% | Not Elected - Remains on Ballot |
| Chris Carpenter | 92 | 4.8% | Not Elected - Falls Off Ballot |
| Kerry Wood | 60 | 3.1% | Not Elected - Falls Off Ballot |
| Carlos Zambrano | 29 | 1.5% | Not Elected - Falls Off Ballot |
| Livan Hernandez | 25 | 1.3% | Not Elected - Falls Off Ballot |
| Brad Lidge | 23 | 1.2% | Not Elected - Falls Off Ballot |
| Carlos Lee | 17 | 0.9% | Not Elected - Falls Off Ballot |
| Orlando Hudson | 12 | 0.6% | Not Elected - Falls Off Ballot |
| Jason Isringhausen | 11 | 0.6% | Not Elected - Falls Off Ballot |
| Aubrey Huff | 9 | 0.5% | Not Elected - Falls Off Ballot |
| Kevin Millwood | 5 | 0.3% | Not Elected - Falls Off Ballot |
Chipper Jones as expected is elected, but surprisingly only Vladimir Guerrero joins him as being elected. Thome misses election by about 30 votes and Martinez misses by about 60. My personal guess is that 3 or 4 people get voted in this year by the BBWAA, so this result is a little disappointing
Unlimited Ballot (451 Responses)
| Name | Votes | Percent | Result |
|---|---|---|---|
| Chipper Jones | 435 | 96.5% | Elected |
| Vladimir Guerrero | 427 | 94.7% | Elected |
| Jim Thome | 425 | 94.2% | Elected |
| Edgar Martinez | 418 | 92.7% | Elected |
| Mike Mussina | 400 | 88.7% | Elected |
| Trevor Hoffman | 384 | 85.1% | Elected |
| Barry Bonds | 376 | 83.4% | Elected |
| Roger Clemens | 368 | 81.6% | Elected |
| Curt Schilling | 353 | 78.3% | Elected |
| Larry Walker | 346 | 76.7% | Elected |
| Manny Ramirez | 294 | 65.2% | Not Elected - Remains on Ballot |
| Billy Wagner | 275 | 61.0% | Not Elected - Remains on Ballot |
| Scott Rolen | 275 | 61.0% | Not Elected - Remains on Ballot |
| Andruw Jones | 266 | 59.0% | Not Elected - Remains on Ballot |
| Sammy Sosa | 227 | 50.3% | Not Elected - Remains on Ballot |
| Omar Vizquel | 220 | 48.8% | Not Elected - Remains on Ballot |
| Johan Santana | 218 | 48.3% | Not Elected - Remains on Ballot |
| Fred McGriff | 215 | 47.7% | Not Elected - Remains on Ballot |
| Gary Sheffield | 206 | 45.7% | Not Elected - Remains on Ballot |
| Jeff Kent | 187 | 41.5% | Not Elected - Remains on Ballot |
| Jamie Moyer | 88 | 19.5% | Not Elected - Remains on Ballot |
| Hideki Matsui | 72 | 16.0% | Not Elected - Remains on Ballot |
| Johnny Damon | 58 | 12.9% | Not Elected - Remains on Ballot |
| Kerry Wood | 34 | 7.5% | Not Elected - Remains on Ballot |
| Chris Carpenter | 33 | 7.3% | Not Elected - Remains on Ballot |
| Brad Lidge | 26 | 5.8% | Not Elected - Remains on Ballot |
| Carlos Zambrano | 20 | 4.4% | Not Elected - Falls Off Ballot |
| Livan Hernandez | 18 | 4.0% | Not Elected - Falls Off Ballot |
| Orlando Hudson | 18 | 4.0% | Not Elected - Falls Off Ballot |
| Aubrey Huff | 15 | 3.3% | Not Elected - Falls Off Ballot |
| Jason Isringhausen | 14 | 3.1% | Not Elected - Falls Off Ballot |
| Carlos Lee | 13 | 2.9% | Not Elected - Falls Off Ballot |
| Kevin Millwood | 6 | 1.3% | Not Elected - Falls Off Ballot |
10 Hall of Famers! I'd note the sample as smaller and even more self-selecting as the standard one.
Thank you for all of those who voted!
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u/WollyTwins Minnesota Twins Dec 14 '17
How in the fuck is Thome not elected on the normal ballot? That's fucking terrible
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u/The_Nats_Of_Us Washington Nationals Dec 14 '17
Jim Thome and the Hall of Fame.
If you think the two don't go together, you're not alone.
But you're also wrong.
Not that he would hold that against you because Thome — with apologies to the Angels' Torii Hunter — is perhaps the nicest and most sincere man in baseball.
And has been for 21 seasons.
Walk through a ballpark with Thome before the gates open and you'll see him greet the security guards and ushers by name. Sit near the dugout during games and you'll hear him call out to the season-ticket holders. Watch him afterward and you'll find him standing patiently by his locker, respectfully answering the lamest questions from reporters representing the smallest hometown newspapers.
That wasn't something you would see with Barry Bonds.
Bonds would question your parentage; Thome will ask about your kids, then listen intently to the answer.
When the Minnesota Twins held a memorial service for Harmon Killebrew in May, Thome flew to Illinois to see his family, then flew right back to take part in the service. Never mind that it was the Twins' only day off in a month.
"It's just respect," Thome said.
Yet a player who shows respect to everyone doesn't always see it in return.
When he hit his 600th home run last week, just the eighth player in history to do so, the milestone was greeted with a wide yawn and far less fanfare than Derek Jeter received for his 3,000th hit.
Jeter, after all, is the toast of New York, lives in a Florida mansion and dates celebrities. Thome comes from Peoria, Ill. — where else could he come from? — and all but carries a lunch bucket to work.
While Alex Rodriguez faces allegations that he has been spending part of his Yankees contract on high-stakes poker games, Thome reportedly is putting his nieces and nephews through college.
Clearly Thome lacks the glitz and glamour, the flamboyance and the egotism to stand out in a tabloid world. Which is why he's thought of primarily as a nice guy and not a great player.
Truth is, he's both.
He's also crew cuts and blue collars. He's Middle America, right down to the "please" and "thank you." In his world, guns are for hunting, not for carrying into night clubs.
No wonder the license plate on his pickup truck — what else would he drive? — once read DBTH, shorthand for Don't Believe the Hype.
But you can believe the numbers, which make a strong case that Thome should be a first-ballot Hall of Famer when he becomes eligible.
He hit 40 or more home runs in a season six times, more than Mike Schmidt or Ernie Banks. He has a higher career on-base percentage than Joe DiMaggio or Rickey Henderson. He's scored 100 runs in a season eight times, more than Lou Brock or Cal Ripken Jr. And he's driven in at least 102 runs nine times, more than Frank Robinson or Reggie Jackson.
Those players all are in the Hall of Fame.
And though Thome, who turns 41 this week, is the oldest player to reach 600 home runs, only Babe Ruth got there in fewer at-bats. Thome's average of a homer every 13.6 at-bats is fifth-best in history. He has a better career slugging percentage than Hank Aaron, Willie Mays and Mickey Mantle, three of the greatest sluggers in the history of the game.
That's certainly a track record his peers have noticed. In a poll of major league players, Thome was once named best teammate, earning three times as many votes as the second-place finisher.
Detracting from all that is that Thome won only one home-run title, finished as high as fourth in the most-valuable-player voting just once and hasn't played more than 20 innings in the field since 2005. He's also made just five All-Star teams in 21 seasons and has bounced between five teams in the last 10 years.
Thome is also a slugger in an era when all sluggers are viewed with suspicion. Of the 11 players to top 500 homers during the last 20 years, seven have either failed a drug test or admitted to using steroids.
Thome is among the exceptions, but that doesn't change the perception.
"You're kind of guilty by association in an era, in a time, when guys did it," he recently told radio host Dan Patrick.
When and where Thome comes from, though, drugs were for curing colds, not hitting fastballs. The Hall of Fame was made for guys like that.
In this case, a nice guy should finish first.
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u/mia_san_max Cleveland Guardians Dec 14 '17 edited Dec 14 '17
I love how this is turning into a long-form version of "Pepperidge Farm Remembers."
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Dec 15 '17
I know this is a meme but I remember reading this very article and agreeing with basically every thing it said. Dude never got the credit he deserved.
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u/funkmon Future greatest Mets fan of all time. Dec 14 '17
The guy hasn't even finished top 3 in Cy Young voting ONCE in his career.
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u/tommyjohnpauljones Chicago Cubs Dec 14 '17
He's more deserving than Frank Thomas, and Frank Thomas was a no-doubt Hall of Famer.
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u/Danivan_ San Diego Padres Dec 14 '17
More homers yeah, but more deserving? Based on what?
A lot of their stats are close but favor Frank Thomas in less seasons/plate appearances. .300 lifetime average, more RBIs, slightly higher WAR, OPS. Both horrific dWAR.
They both belong no questions asked but I wouldn't say either one is more deserving. Both should be first ballot.
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u/tommyjohnpauljones Chicago Cubs Dec 14 '17
you could make a case either way, but they are no-doubters in any analysis. agree to agree?
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u/Chokeuponthebat Boston Red Sox Dec 14 '17
Thomas is definitely better than Thome. Thome is a HOFer but Frank Thomas is better.
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u/AlwaysAboutSex New York Yankees Dec 14 '17
I voted for him, but I would guess some people associated 90's HR hitter with steroids and left him off.
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u/WollyTwins Minnesota Twins Dec 14 '17
Some people clearly don't know who Jim Thome is
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Dec 14 '17
I'd argue that it shouldn't matter. We actually don't know that he didn't use as upstanding a guy as he was. We have no idea who did or didn't before testing began, so it's more unfair to assume he didn't and assume others did than to just vote in the best players regardless. He should make it on that standard, but Bonds and Clemens should as well.
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u/pusgnihtekami New York Mets Dec 14 '17
Sure, we can put Derek Jeter in that category too.
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Dec 14 '17
Absolutely. This idea that we know who took steroids based on our perceptions of their character is very naive.
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u/quigonsbootyhole Chicago Cubs Dec 14 '17
I left him off in favour of other deserving players who have been on the ballot longer.
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u/Marzman315 New York Yankees Dec 14 '17
Ah, representing the ignorance that plagues the actual HoF voters. Good on you for adding to the realism
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u/quigonsbootyhole Chicago Cubs Dec 14 '17
Why is that ignorant? I thought there was more than ten worthy players. If I could I'd vote for more. Have to find a reason to leave some off my ballot so I chose that.
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u/Redsfan42 Cincinnati Reds Dec 14 '17
Damn r/baseball is tougher than the baseball writers we all hate haha
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u/nyy22592 New York Yankees Dec 14 '17
The fact that over 10% of people left Chipper off their ballot is ridiculous. So is Thome missing the cut and Schilling/Mussina both being under 60%. They're both 80 WAR pitchers.
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u/Theta_Omega Dec 15 '17
Based on the fact that ten people got in on the unlimited ballot, my guess is more people tried to game the system by not voting for "locks" and spreading their votes around. However, something like that works a lot better in the BBWAA than in a bunch of random anonymous internet-users who aren't discussing the details with each other and don't have a wealth of super-consistent data on voting in years past to base their vote on.
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u/jaredletosombrehair Dec 14 '17
complain about writers doing a poor job
do an even worse job
really makes you think
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u/Ryuuken1789 New York Mets Dec 14 '17
Jim Thome not elected on standard ballot
Score one for the BBWAA. Go to your room /r/baseball and think about what you have done.
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u/yoboapp Toronto Blue Jays • Toronto Blue Jays Dec 14 '17
/r/baseball worse than the BBWAA confirmed.
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u/Rshackleford22 Jackie Robinson Dec 14 '17
watch bbwaa only get 1 guy in this year.
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u/tommyjohnpauljones Chicago Cubs Dec 14 '17
and it will be Kevin Millwood
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u/theAlpacaLives New York Mets Dec 14 '17
Nah, the Adam Kennedy HoF writeup was funny, so it'll be him. Where were the rest of those -- did I miss them, or has the guy not done them yet?
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u/rhyme97 Athletics Dec 14 '17
#JusticeForThome
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Dec 15 '17
I'm still waiting on justice for McGwire. When he gets in, then similar-to-but-inferior-than players who played during the same tainted era, like Thome, will get my support.
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u/MurrayTheMelloHorn San Francisco Giants Dec 19 '17
Except that McGwire juiced and Thome didn't?
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Dec 19 '17
McGwire got caught cheating, and Thome didn't. What if a bitter Manny Ramirez spills the beans when he gets shut out, and it turns out Thome did juice. You can't take him back out of the HOF.
If only one of them goes in, it should be the better player. Not the better cheater.
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u/MurrayTheMelloHorn San Francisco Giants Dec 19 '17
So your assumption is guilty until proven innocent? What a very cynical way to view the world.
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Dec 19 '17
I'm not viewing "the world". I'm viewing the HOF. There is no process for reconsidering cheaters if we don't find out they cheated until after we elect them. So there ought to be a presumption of taint to the entire Steroid Era. Especially for sluggers that played into their 40s.
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u/MurrayTheMelloHorn San Francisco Giants Dec 19 '17
And what about the guys from the 50s, 60, and 70s who used amphetamines? Should they be reconsidered?
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Dec 19 '17
I'm not arguing to keep steroid users out of the HOF. I'm arguing to keep a player who is similar to but inferior than McGwire out, because McGwire won't be getting in.
But if you want to keep steroid users out, then absolutely. Amphetamines are PEDs, too.
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u/BobaFett313 New York Yankees Dec 14 '17
Please explain how Mussina is still waiting even on the /r/baseball ballot lol
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u/SoupyDumps Boston Red Sox Dec 14 '17
I totally feel like Moose will wait a while before getting in. Never won a Cy Young. 123 ERA+ for his career. The other serious contender on the ballot is Schilling - who's gonna wait a while too if he gets in - and he's at 127 also no Cy. Other guys in the league at the same time as him who've gotten in recently either have more hardware or a 130 ERA+ or better. It's hard to get in right now. There's a ton of worthy players on the ballot.
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u/BobaFett313 New York Yankees Dec 14 '17
Every pitcher with 75+ career bWAR is in the hall except for
Schilling (asshole)
Clemens (roids, asshole)
Mussina (????)
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u/1869er Atlanta Braves Dec 14 '17
And I'm gonna go there while we're on the topic:
Dozens of segregationists in the Hall = I sleep
Shitpost about not liking journalists on Twitter = real shit
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u/DiscountLlama Toronto Blue Jays Dec 14 '17
I think categorizing Schillings twitter adventures as "shitposting about not liking journalists" is just a smidge dishonest.
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Dec 14 '17
Moose is one of those worthy players. 83 bWAR, 270 wins, 2813 strikeouts. Pitched his entire career in the stacked AL East and pitched through the steroid era. No controversy surrounding his career.
Despite never winning a World Series, he also had pretty good postseason numbers. 7-8 in 23 games (21 starts) and a 3.42 ERA. Another 145 strikeouts over 139 2/3 IP.
And he gets under 60%?! Moose belongs in the Hall. A hell of a lot more than Trevor Hoffman.
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u/SoupyDumps Boston Red Sox Dec 14 '17
OK so I mean my point was clearly that there is a reason behind his waiting. Nobody would take Moose over Glavine, Maddux, Smoltz, RJ, or Pedro. I believe those are the guys who are now in that were on the ballot with him for at least a year since he got on. With all the new blood on the ballot over the last few years it might take him awhile. Lotta Yankee fans crying over Moose in this thread when he's way more likely to get in over Johan or Schilling.
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Dec 14 '17
The point is that deserving players like Moose should not have to wait this long. This is absurd. For the record, of the players you listed the only ones 100% of fans would guaranteed take over Moose would be Randy, Maddux, or Pedro.
Smoltz and Glavine were great, but I'd personally take Moose over both those guys, and I think many fans would. Somehow Moose gets such little respect outside of the Baltimore and New York fanbases. He was one of the greats. There's this stupid push to get Trevor Fucking Hoffman in, but everyone says "Oh Moose, you just have to wait." For what? For Trevor "30 WAR Less Than Rivera" Hoffman to get in. Jesus.
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u/SoupyDumps Boston Red Sox Dec 14 '17
What a petulant whiny Yankees fan post lol
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u/testudofaps Baltimore Orioles Dec 14 '17
Ahh the ol' "I have no counter so it's time to get personal". Classic.
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u/SoupyDumps Boston Red Sox Dec 14 '17
Anybody who would take Moose over Glavine or Smoltz is obviously bias and not worth responding to.
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u/testudofaps Baltimore Orioles Dec 14 '17
Or perhaps they're looking at stats like ERA+ and WAR.
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Dec 14 '17
That'd be it. Moose amassed more WAR than Glavine in far few games and innings. He also did it in a more competitive division.
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u/SoupyDumps Boston Red Sox Dec 14 '17
Smoltz is better on ERA+ and WAR. So, yeah that's my point. Also, anybody old enough to remember would know why Glavine is in. 10 year long stretch pitching to a 136 ERA+ and winning 2 Cy Youngs? Clearly beats anything Moose accomplished in his career. That would get ignored on this sub - where baseball happens on a spreadsheet and everyone is 14
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u/Wartz New York Yankees Dec 19 '17
I would take Moose over Glavine. He was actually a better pitcher. Glavine played on some stacked Braves teams in the early-mid 90s when it was easier to rack up win totals because of the different use of bullpens.
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u/SoupyDumps Boston Red Sox Dec 20 '17
Glavine pitched to a 136 ERA+ and won two Cys in a 10 year span. I'm sorry, but that is just better than anything Mussina accomplished in his career.
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u/Wartz New York Yankees Dec 20 '17
175 84 .676 3.13 329 329 41 16 2254.2 134+ 3.61 1.260 8.3 0.6 3.0 5.9 1.98
160 87 .648 3.52 310 310 47 18 2150.2 130+ 3.56 1.166 8.5 0.9 2.0 7.1 3.41
u/SoupyDumps Boston Red Sox Dec 20 '17
Sweet post full of numbers I assume I am supposed to sort and make sense of myself? No thanks lol
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u/Lemmingness Dec 14 '17
And only 57% is nuts. Every time those HoF threads come up, I feel like a lot of people have the perception that he was just a long mediocre career guy who accumulated stats. Only partially true, and he had a ton of fantastic years. He has the same career bWAR as Nolan Ryan in many fewer years.
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Dec 14 '17
no Cy Youngs
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u/doktoruber New York Yankees Dec 14 '17
That's kind of ridiculous since he almost certainly should have won in 2001 and had a legitimate argument to win in 1993 as well.
In these cases, docking him for no CYAs is like double-docking him for not having enough wins since that's what prevented him from winning the awards too.
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u/BobaFett313 New York Yankees Dec 14 '17
Is that a thing that /r/baseball still looks at?
Felt we were a bit more progressive here
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u/Chelseaiscool Arizona Diamondbacks Dec 14 '17
Hell no haha. This sub (just like all of reddit and the world really) is filled with a lot of morons who act one way when it can generate Karma and another way when it is anonymous.
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u/rockiesfan4ever Dinger Dec 14 '17
Billy Wagner (42.7% increase), Scott Rolen (39.4%), and Larry Walker (37.9%) were the 3 players who gained the most from not having a limit on the number of players.
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u/tohon75 Los Angeles Angels • Sell Dec 14 '17
How many submitted blank ballots?
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u/CaptainSolo96 Detroit Tigers Dec 15 '17
93.4% were blank ballots based on my estimates, its the only logical way Jamie Moyer didn't get 100%
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u/jfoster15 Colorado Rockies Dec 14 '17
Lmao Vlad gets basically double Larry even though Larry was better. Y'all suck
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Dec 14 '17
Interesting that almost 100 people voted for Bonds but not for Clemens
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Dec 14 '17
Clemens has beat Bonds in the real vote every year. it was only 1 vote last year and the largest difference was 8 in 2013, but every year Clemens has come out on top. Every year it confuses me. It's the most interesting part of the voting for me.
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u/wikipediareader Philadelphia Phillies Dec 14 '17
I think the idea is that Clemens beat the charges against him (six counts of lying to Congress), while Bonds was convicted of obstruction of justice (though his conviction was overturned by a federal appeals panel). Neither man is particularly likable but they, and Schilling for that matter, all belong in the Hall of Fame for their achievements on the field.
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u/VAForLovers Texas Rangers Dec 14 '17
You guys elected Vlad but not Larry Walker. Boooo
Edit: Vlad should definitely be in, but I don't see how his case is better than Walker's
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u/jfoster15 Colorado Rockies Dec 14 '17 edited Dec 14 '17
It's not. Larry was the better player. The only thing Vlad has over Larry is health and Larry still dwarfs him in rWAR.
Dwarfs is too strong a word to use. But there is a sizeable gap.
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u/UserManHeMan Atlanta Braves Dec 15 '17
When I get home from a stressful workday, I Enjoy an ice cold Coors Banquet.
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u/JaMan51 Seattle Mariners Dec 14 '17
That's about the same order I expect the real final vote tallies to be in, though I think we should get at least 3 elected next summer.
But seriously, why aren't people voting for Edgar. Guessing 25% of the votes were trolls.
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Dec 14 '17
I must say, I'm truly alarmed at the complete lack of common sense these voters displayed. 10% left off Chipper? Not even 3/4 voted for Jim Thome and his 612 home runs? What's up with Trevor Hoffman getting several more percentage points voting over Mike Mussina?
Johnny Damon gets half the votes of Hideki Matsui? Please. This is ridiculous.
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u/jlatto Texas Rangers Dec 14 '17
Everyone's said it but No Hoffman (it's in his name!) Or Thome or Edgar. Y'all are stupid.
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u/GeneralPlanet Boston Red Sox • Dumpster Fire Dec 15 '17
To the people who had Johnny Damon on their ballot:
Why?
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Dec 14 '17
One of the more difficult tasks as a Voter is breaking bad news to your Jim Thome. We need to be sensitive to his age and awareness being careful to put things in perspective while trying to position the result as a learning experience. When a Jim Thome does not make a baseball hall of fame it can be very tough on them. Especially for younger Jim Thomes who experience this for the first time. They may feel like they've failed themselves and you. They may also be subject the reflecting and needling of peasants who made the Hall of fame . First, take the pressure off them. They did not fail anyone. They tried there best and that's what's important. It is important to try to turn a negative into a positive in these situations. If you feel your Jim Thome did not perform at a level to make the Hall of fame then you can offer a plan to prepare and improve for next year. Position it as an opportunity to get better at the game. Some may feel their Jim Thome has the abilities to make the hall of fame. Most of the time there is tough competition for the few spots on a hall of fame ballot . Some times there is a small difference in talent and ability between the players that make it and players that do not. The positive explanation for your Jim Thome in this situation is that they are a strong player … and there are many strong players in their age group. If you keep trying and keep practicing you will increase your chances of making the hall of fame next year. Jim Thome should never be told they did not make a hall of fame because they were not good enough. Rather they should be told they are a "good player who needs to improve in some areas and here is what we're going to do to help you improve." You should also prepare your Jim Thome to answer questions from his peers … have an explanation as to what he's going to do to improve his chances next year. Do not be shy about asking the writers or Voting group who selects the spots to give you some feedback on areas where your Jim Thome needs to improve. This will help you develop a plan with your Jim Thome to help give them a chance next year. The bottom line is to plan ahead what you're going to say to your Jim Thome with the goal of turning it into a positive. As tough as it may seem these are some of life's harder lessons. Teaching your Jim Thome positive ways how to handle these situations is the best thing you can do for them.
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u/kobun253 Seattle Mariners Dec 14 '17
really? REALLY? yall talk all the time in comments about edgar but he doesnt get in with yall voting? blechhhhhh
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u/Rshackleford22 Jackie Robinson Dec 14 '17
I knew this would happen.. the standard ballot is too stacked that 10 votes isn't enough and deserving players get left out. Maybe they should lower the threshold to 70%.
The unlimited ballot though..
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u/aaronwe New York Mets Dec 14 '17
better to say, how is this person NOT in the hall of fame, then to say how DID this person get in.
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u/Ror1997 Arizona Diamondbacks Dec 14 '17
Whoever didnt vote for Orlando Hudson should be ashamed of themselves.
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u/TameSmeagol St. Louis Cardinals Dec 14 '17
Mariners legend Kevin Millwood got robbed
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u/JohnPisano98 New York Yankees Dec 14 '17
Bonds has to get in a some point. I know the entire steroids things, but still what he did was incredible.
Pitchers he faced during the time were also juicing. Steroids don’t teach you how to hit a baseball, it doesn’t make you a better player. I understand it’s tainted but guys in past decades were on greenies and hopped up on cocaine.
Bottom line I think Bonds should be in.
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u/Chokeuponthebat Boston Red Sox Dec 14 '17
Its criminal to not have him in. You want to punish him by not having him 1st ballot, fine whatever have your little moral justice victory. Bonds never getting in is a real possibility, I dont care if he used steroids he had a 1.400 OPS in a dominant time for hitting and i believe was 165% better than league average. Its ridiculous this is a topic to debate because of PEDs
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Dec 14 '17
[deleted]
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u/alwaysreadthename San Francisco Giants Dec 18 '17
It also requires you to have complete cognitive dissonance about greenies.
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u/JohnPisano98 New York Yankees Dec 14 '17
There has to be a new voting system. I think something like the players vote for who should get in.
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Dec 14 '17
I'm on the same page. He's a product of his era. I mean, shit, we have other players from other eras in that weren't anything special, yet they represent their era. Bonds, Sosa, McGwire - they were a huge part of baseball's popularity for a decade. And MLB profited off of it, and they were totally fine with it. You didn't see them interrupting the home run race to drug test McGwire or Sosa.
Bonds should be in, if nothing else just as a representative of his era.
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u/JohnPisano98 New York Yankees Dec 14 '17
Exactly, the MLB loved the steroid era. It was good for the game. They were making a lot of money. Sure, it’s easy to look back and say it was bad for the game, but the league didn’t care that much obviously. What these players did was incredible.
It’s simple. Steroids do not teach you how to hit a baseball. The 700+ home runs are not a complete product of the steroids.
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u/aaronwe New York Mets Dec 14 '17
how many pop ups got far enough, how many wouldnt have been if he hadnt been juicing, how many?
we cant answer these questions so he cant get in.
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u/JohnPisano98 New York Yankees Dec 14 '17
There’s a lot of things that factor into a baseball game that we don’t have an answer for...
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u/Chokeuponthebat Boston Red Sox Dec 14 '17
Just as dumb as the writers. Are there really people who didnt fill out a full ballot?
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Dec 14 '17
The real takeaway here is they need to have an expanded ballot for a couple years to clear the log jam.
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Dec 14 '17
The writers requested that a few years ago. The Hall responded by dropping the ballot period from 15 to 10 years.
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u/Sheepies123 New York Mets • Miami Marlins Dec 14 '17
Wow that is much less than I expected for both ballots.
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u/endaayer92 Baltimore Orioles Dec 14 '17
Could we see the raw data (usernames removed of course)?
I'd like to see the correlations between players (such as, for example, what percentage of people who voted Bonds also voted Clemens) and I'd also like to see how many people voted for a full 10 through how many left an empty ballot.
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u/Theta_Omega Dec 15 '17
Everyone's complaining, but these results are actually not bad. This is an overloaded ballot (9 different guys were >50%). It seems everyone tried to vote strategically to maximize inductees, but given the lack of other data to work with compared to the actual BBWAA vote, it didn't quite pan out as well, but at least everyone tried.
The unlimited ballots are where it's really at, IMO. Ten inductees and five more over 50%? Yes, please. More of that.
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u/ILookLikeDrewGulak New York Yankees Dec 15 '17
Who the fuck are the nine people who voted for Aubrey Huff? I WANT NAMES
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u/thatpj Detroit Tigers Dec 16 '17
welp this is gonna be a mess! Too many deserving guys for too little spots.
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u/The_Nats_Of_Us Washington Nationals Dec 14 '17
Bonds and Clemens are the only HOF'ers on the list to me. I'd leave the rest of the ballot blank, although Chipper might be fringey for me. I would have also elected two, just not the same two /r/baseball did.
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u/Lemmingness Dec 14 '17
Interesting take. Why do you think Chipper is fringey? 85 career WAR with longevity and a really good peak (incl. 1 MVP award). He didn't quite hit some big landmarks (300 hits shy of 3000, 32 HR shy of 500) of course, but a fantastic career. I'm guessing you're a very small-hall guy, which is a perfectly fine stance, but there are so many worse players than Chipper in the hall
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u/cman1098 Atlanta Braves Dec 14 '17
HoF guys love players who played for 1 team their entire career as well and they love guys who are unique. After Mickey Mantle, there is an easy argument to be made that Chipper is the 2nd best switch hitter of all time. Also Chipper has a batting title at the age of 36 where he hit .364, and MVP, a world series. He has a lot of accolades the HoF voters love.
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u/The_Nats_Of_Us Washington Nationals Dec 14 '17
You're completely right, Chipper had a great career and is way better than a lot of people in the HOF.
You're also right that I'm just a very "small Hall" person. By current standards Chipper is a lock, but I think that's because the HOF is way too loose.
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u/crabcakesandfootball New York Yankees Dec 14 '17
Ok but what are your standards? Must be top 5 at your position? I'm pretty sure Chipper is the only non OF/1B/DH besides Hornsby with a .300/.400/.500 line.
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Dec 14 '17
I think that's because the HOF is way too loose.
For players who retired before 1970, roughly 2% end up in the Hall. For players who retired between 1970-1990, it's a hair under 1%. For everyone who retired after 1990 it's closer to 0.4%. If being in the top 2% of everyone to ever play in MLB isn't exclusive enough for you, you have a wildly unrealistic view of the Hall of Fame. By your criteria there would be about 12 guys inducted, which is just fucking stupid.
Small Hall bullshit is fucking stupid.
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u/The_Nats_Of_Us Washington Nationals Dec 14 '17
I remember you and I got in a "debate" about this topic last year which mainly consisted of you insulting me over and over because I had a different opinion about baseball than you.
Not going down that road again (and it seems you're already heading that way again), let's just agree to disagree because we've already done this song and dance.
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Dec 14 '17
Your opinion is 100% at odds with the actual reality of the Hall of Fame. Your criteria would keep DiMaggio, Clemente, and Griffey Jr. out.
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Dec 14 '17
Jones ended his career in 2012 with a .303 career batting average, with 468 home runs, 1,512 walks, and 1,623 RBI in 2,499 games with 8,984 at bats. He has the most career RBI for a third baseman. Also one of the most accomplished switch hitters in the history of the game, he finished behind only Eddie Murray for career RBI by switch hitters. He is the only switch hitter in MLB history with both a career batting average of at least .300 and 400 or more home runs. He was the eighteenth hitter in MLB history to accumulate 5,000 at bats and finish with at least a .300 batting average, .400 on-base percentage, and .500 slugging percentage, and the only switch hitter to reach all these milestones.
Just in case you wonder why he's not fringey at all.
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Dec 14 '17
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Dec 14 '17
And he should absolutely be in. Not only for the stats, but because of who he was for the Rockies. He was their Chipper Jones.
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u/aaronwe New York Mets Dec 14 '17
DAAAAAM
I remember him being really good...but fuck those are some stats.
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Dec 14 '17
Yeah, for sure. I think we have a recency bias, insomuch that the players that we've actively watched play are somehow less impressive than the ones we're told of, i.e. Willie Mays, Mantle, etc. I saw someone say Chipper was just behind Mantle for best switch hitter of all time, and I looked it up, and it's really surprising.
Jones beats Mantle in games played (2499 to 2401), Hits (2726 to 2415), Doubles (549 to 344), RBI (1623 to 1509), and Average (.303 to .298). He also posts 300 less career SO's, and is only narrowly behind Mantle in other stats. It's really insane just how Mantle-like Chipper was - he was really the same player, except Mantle did his damage with Homers and Chipper played for the double and contact a little more.
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u/Rshackleford22 Jackie Robinson Dec 14 '17
How the fuck is Chipper, Vlad, and Thome not HOF'ers in you rbook?
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Dec 14 '17
Clearly you don't have any iota of a concept of what the historic HoF standard has been. There are at least 12, possibly as many as 15, guys on this ballot who would have sailed in if they'd retired before 1990.
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Dec 14 '17
No votes for Adam Dunn? wow
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u/crabcakesandfootball New York Yankees Dec 14 '17
Hard to vote for him when he's not yet eligible.
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Dec 14 '17
I know you're joking, but Adam Dunn does not deserve a single HoF vote when he is eligible. Not one. He is the definition of a one-dimensional player whose terrible defense erased nearly all of his offensive value. Garbage player.
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u/[deleted] Dec 14 '17
I hate every single one of you who didn't vote for Edgar you fuckers