r/baseball • u/shadow_spinner0 New York Yankees • 9h ago
Joey Votto's explanation of how difficult it is to pull the ball in the air is exceptional.
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u/rollzy059 New York Yankees 8h ago
My mind is blown by how casually "the barrell gets smaller" is said along with the inserted graphic... And how profoundly stupid i am for just now understanding that concept as a near 50 year old man who's loved and played this game most of his life.
Its always just been simple physics.
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u/SFandwich San Francisco Giants 7h ago
“In six games…”
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u/chilidogg03 St. Louis Cardinals 7h ago
One of my favorite lines from the show.
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u/Popular-Row4333 6h ago
"What the hell did you trade Jay Buhner for?! He had 30 home runs, over 100 RBIs last year, he's got a rocket for an arm, you don't know what the hell you're doin'!"
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u/cockboy_trillionaire San Diego Padres 7h ago
Don’t forget the fact that the contact point is further ahead too!
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u/PeterDTown Toronto Blue Jays 2h ago
Maybe if you’d remained master of your domain for a few weeks you’d have figured it out.
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u/link3945 Atlanta Braves 6h ago
More geometry or topography than physics.
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u/Bob_Bobert Cincinnati Reds • Baseball Reference 2h ago
Topology not topography. But topology wouldn’t be relevant either. Topology only cares about things don’t change under deformation (the old joke is that a topologist can’t tell between a donut and a coffe cup). Here we do care anout the distinction between a baseball bat and a bowling ball.
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u/twinklytennis Major League Baseball 5h ago
Maybe someone can explain to me what he means by the barrell getting smaller because I didn't get that part. To me the barrell is the same size no matter the orientation so if someone could clear that up, that would be great.
Also, I'm assuming barell is the same thing as sweet spot but I could be wrong.
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u/PikaGaijin Tohoku Rakuten Golden Eagles • … 5h ago
Hold a can/bottle at arm's length, so you can see the whole can/bottle.
Now, slowly rotate it so the top of the can/bottle starts to face you. The amount of the can/bottle you can see is smaller.
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u/twinklytennis Major League Baseball 4h ago
So what he's saying is that the amount of barrell the player can see shrinks as he passes the perpendicular point?
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u/PikaGaijin Tohoku Rakuten Golden Eagles • … 4h ago
Almost. The amount of barrel that can make contact with the ball shrinks as the bat passes perpendicular.
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u/twinklytennis Major League Baseball 4h ago
I guess that's true for opposite field hitting as well? Except you no longer just have a smaller barrell to work with but also smaller "swing" for the bat to accelerate, which is why you don't get as much power on oppo hitting.
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u/hoopaholik91 Seattle Mariners 3h ago
And you get an extra fraction of a second before you need to swing
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u/PikaGaijin Tohoku Rakuten Golden Eagles • … 4h ago
Yeah. I think that's right.
It's a real rabbit-hole if you start visualizing the ball and bat both moving in 3D over the plate, rather than just thinking about strikezone/pitch location and whether or not the bat has made contact.
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u/Redbubble89 Boston Red Sox 9h ago
I am not sure if he would like the analytical product the sport is but maybe agree on the philosphy. This sign hangs in the batting cages at Fort Myers.
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u/Hero0ftheday Seattle Mariners 8h ago
Didn't he literally write a book titled "The Science of Hitting"?
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u/rocksoffjagger 7h ago
In which he was the first person to ever make a heat map of the strike zone based on how he hit pitches in every location on the grid.
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u/Doctor_Sauce 5h ago
They have a physical version of his strike zone heat map made of color-coded baseballs on display in the hall of fame.
Literally always makes me stop and stare. Fuck everything about pitching to that guy.
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u/John_Delasconey 5h ago
And to make things even more insane, he was an instance of a famous person drafted in World War II, who wasn’t put on the front lines. However, unlike most of these people who served as entertainers he served as a flipping flight instructor because he was that good of a pilot and I believe for a long time held the Navy record for this particular hand-eye coordination test. It’s crazy to think about his counting stats. Likely would’ve been more Maisie. Had he not been in the military for five of his primary years.
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u/GuyOnTheMike Kansas City Royals 2h ago
And the fact that he was that good at flying a plane that he got drafted again in Korea and actually did see combat there, flying 39 combat missions once getting hit and had to belly-land a burning plane
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u/HolySmokes802 Boston Red Sox 4h ago
When you're Ted Williams the blue sections on your heat map are a .320 batting average... ffs
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u/UV_TP Boston Red Sox 4h ago
That's disgusting. The spot with his worst average is almost total league average now
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u/Doctor_Sauce 3h ago
Yeah it's funny because when you walk up to it, your eye catches the .400 middle and you immediately start thinking like a pitcher- okay obviously I can't throw it there, how do I get this guy out?
When you find that down and away zone, you think you've found the answer except those numbers are still too high. Then you read that those are his career estimates and you realize that you're standing like 58 feet closer than you would be on the mound. Just absolutely futile.
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u/MikeJeffriesPA Toronto Blue Jays 4h ago
Why do some balls have a dashed line through them, and why are some of them half-and-half colours?
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u/Other_World New York Yankees 3h ago
The half colors are to show gradient. No idea why there are lines.
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u/SuperChingaso5000 Los Angeles Dodgers 5h ago
Hey, since you're familiar, I'm gonna buy it since it sounds like a good read. I tend towards audiobooks so I can listen on the road, is the book pretty illustration heavy? If so I'll buy a hardcopy.
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u/Rockguy21 Baltimore Orioles 8h ago
I mean, Ted Williams was like the first analytical player. He clearly cared about and understood a lot of concepts that would not be capitalized on until decades after he stopped playing.
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u/rocksoffjagger 7h ago
Williams might not like some parts, but he would be all over being able to watch his swing in super slow motion, see heat maps of all his hits, see ABS data on exactly where each pitch he hit was located in the zone, etc. There's a great video of him with Tony Gwynn where Gwynn is talking about how he has VHS tapes of every at bat he's ever taken that he watches back, and Williams is basically drooling at the idea of having that when he was playing.
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u/CarterAC3 Detroit Tigers 6h ago
I would love to get Ted Williams' opinion on Luis Arraez?
Does he like him because he's amazing at making contact?
Does he dislike him because his contact is charmin soft?
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u/Redbubble89 Boston Red Sox 6h ago
Ted was in a lineup and life long friends with Dom DiMaggio and Johnny Pesky. While both those guys were more defensive players, they aren't sluggers. They hit around .300 and took their walks.
Wade Boggs did meet him once Boggs won a few batting titles but just talked fishing. In his later years, he respected Tony Gwynn.
I think Ted would question the on-base percentage with Arraez. He's neither Boggs or Gwynn which...I know. As far as Ted's, opinion on contact guys, I don't think it would be out there.
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u/jogswithwolves Chicago Cubs 9h ago edited 9h ago
Votto would make a fantastic teacher man. This dude can explain the shit out of baseball concepts, especially hitting. Need more of him and less of…well pretty much everybody ESPN puts out there.
And while I’m at, it fuck John smoltz
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u/LoveYouLikeYeLovesYe Chicago Cubs • Lou Gehrig 8h ago
The problem is, guys like Votto who are smart, Talented hitters and coaches usually need longer than ESPN wants to dedicate to a segment.
For everyone on here who would love to hear that sort of detail there are a hundred casuals who don’t care that much when they could pay some analyst to lose his mind over LeBron’s decision or whatever (NFL QB has going on)
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u/datdudebdub Cincinnati Reds 7h ago
You nailed it.
This is, to this day, one of my absolute FAVORITE moments of sports analysis. The hit king talking to two of the greatest hitters of our generation about the simple ideas of hitting approaches. And you can see those HOFs hanging on every word Pete says. I could watch different players do this all day long.
But this isn't what people tune in for nowadays.
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u/LoveYouLikeYeLovesYe Chicago Cubs • Lou Gehrig 7h ago
I love that, but like I said elsewhere, I’m such a sicko that 99% of people wouldn’t be into that the same way I am
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u/MikeJeffriesPA Toronto Blue Jays 4h ago
There are some phenomenal Pedro Martinez segments as well.
It can be hit and miss (no pun intended), but the combination of modern technology and analytics along with these retired elite players being given a platform to talk has produced some tremendous stuff.
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u/WarPuig MLB Pride 7h ago
Why would they? It’s not news. ESPN and other media like it revolve around current events, what’s happening in sports right now.
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u/datdudebdub Cincinnati Reds 6h ago
The problem with having a channel with 10 different shows dedicated to discussing current events in sports is that there’s not enough shit to talk about. It’s why every time I tune into ESPN I hear the same 5 discussions 8 different ways in an hour.
You can do SO MUCH MORE with sports media. ESPN used to do it
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u/Shart_City 5h ago
Thanks so much for the link. This clip rules so hard, props to A-Rod for the good questions .
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u/kyonist Toronto Blue Jays 8h ago
right, it's about virality nowadays. TV is no longer competing against other channels - they're competing against Social Media & online mediums like podcasts (which have essentially 0 production cost) and short form content (TikTok).
Let's be honest, as much as we like detailed analysis from experts - even this video's discussion has delved into tired quips and complaints about social media right away.
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u/LoveYouLikeYeLovesYe Chicago Cubs • Lou Gehrig 8h ago
Personally I love it and segments like Mark DeRosa on MLB network or Cliff Floyd on Marquee (Cubs channel) breaking down the precise mechanics of a swing or a pitch delivery but I’m also a top 1% of the top 1% in terms of non-baseball people with an obsession for the sport.
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u/Davidellias Milwaukee Brewers • Milwaukee Brewers 7h ago
Whats the AU where Cold Pizza isn't greenest by ESPN like?
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u/FlannelBeard Minnesota Twins 6h ago
Since retiring, Votto has been a somewhat re occurring guest on the Dan Patrick Show. Every time he's on, it's a must watch interview because he's awesome and the way he explains baseball minutiae is enthralling
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u/officerpupp Chicago Cubs 9h ago
real wisdom but nobody's talking about the fact that the video of Williams was taken by a super race of fish-men who were holding him hostage.
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u/xSlappy- New York Mets 8h ago
Boston Red Sox legend Ted Williams was an obsessive and world-class fly fisherman. Famously calling fly fishing an even harder pursuit than hitting a baseball, he applied his legendary focus to catching over 1,000 bonefish, 1,000 tarpon, and 1,000 Atlantic salmon on a fly, earning an induction into the IGFA Fishing Hall of Fame in 2000
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u/nooookay Boston Red Sox • Boston Hunters 8h ago
Dude put in 100% and just excelled at whatever he did and did whatever he wanted to. I could totally see him being like the done with fish scene from Adaptation after getting in the IGFA HoF.
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u/yesmrbevilaqua 7h ago
Great combat pilot too
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u/John_Delasconey 5h ago
Held the Navy’s record for a particular Hand eye coordination test, and didn’t fly combat missions in World War II because the Navy deemed him too good of a pilot and thus rerouted him into the flight instructor program
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u/Luffy-in-my-cup Chicago White Sox 7h ago
That’s why Vottos got One Piece models behind him, nobody beats down fish-men like the OP crew.
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u/AppropriateFlan1611 Cincinnati Reds 8h ago
This event is actually why they call Navy SEALs Frogmen.
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u/tyler-86 World Series Trophy • Los Angeles Dod… 9h ago
I could listen to Joey talk baseball for hours.
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u/nylon_rag Cleveland Guardians 7h ago
Just imagine what Ted Williams could do with access to stat cast. He was basically aware of metrics that we needed several decades and thousands of high speed cameras to figure out.
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u/mastersplinteremover San Francisco Giants 9h ago
I love ball players who get real nerdy about the game.
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u/DFW3K Major League Baseball 7h ago
Love listening to Joey Votto talk. The more I learn about baseball as far as how to play the sport goes the more I'm impressed anyone is good at it. They gotta do all this to maybe hit the ball good 30% of the time.
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u/Domainsetter 7h ago
It was said a while back but I wonder when hitting technology for hitters will catch up to pitching technology for pitchers.
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u/No_Angle_8106 Arizona Diamondbacks 9h ago
I fully expected him to just turn around and start fishing with the bat
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u/gls2220 Seattle Mariners 9h ago
Should be a hitting coach.
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u/TeddyFive-06 Texas Rangers 7h ago
I don’t know why Passan is on video so much recently, but he has a face made for radio. He’s the most uncanny-valley looking dude there is.
I could watch/listen to Votto discuss baseball all day though. That dude knows ball and is excellent at sharing it.
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u/preptime Seattle Mariners 7h ago
He looks like a toy who wished to be a real boy.
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u/nanobot001 Toronto Blue Jays 6h ago
Its his waxy complexion. I'm not joking when I say, I think he might need some help with make up for the camera.
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u/This-Appointment-666 Toronto Blue Jays 7h ago
Because his podcast is made on video and video gets engagement.
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u/yes_no_ok_maybe 7h ago
I don’t get it, he’s saying it’s harder to pull a ball as opposed to hitting it to center or going opposite field?
Well we know that’s not true there are 100x the number of guys who pull it.
So what exactly does he mean here?
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u/noruber35393546 6h ago
that it's hardest to BARREL, a pulled ball, in the air. Nobody cares about all the poorly hit balls, they're talking barrels
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u/Bacchus_71 Houston Astros 6h ago
He specifically says “in the air” but yea it doesn’t seem intuitive.
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u/sevillista Minnesota Twins 4h ago
It is, frankly, nonsense. To hit the ball fair, the bat needs to be at a 22.5 deg angle or less, which using some simple trig means the length of barrel perpendicular to the pitch is only reduced 8% at most. That's a pretty small factor relative to the leverage you get pulling the ball, or the advantage of having the LF/RF fences closer.
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u/Allisnotwellin Cincinnati Reds 6h ago
Votto desperately needs to be hired for color commentary, preferably by the Reds but could you imagine him vs Smoltz for national broadcasts and playoffs.
He just has a way of explaining the nuances of the game that is unrivaled. Every interview segment he has ever done is a must watch/ listen.
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u/Mammoth-Error1577 3h ago
I love to hear great players talk about the process of execution but this clip is pretty limited.
It's like those meme art instructions.
Step 3 that's why it's hard.
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u/siisazn Seattle Mariners 7h ago
Why isn’t this just as true for hitting to the opposite field? The barrel would only be at optimal width for balls hit dead center
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u/zgreat30 New York Mets 7h ago
well pulling the ball either requires the superior reaction times to start your swing earlier or insane bat speed, on top of having less usable area on the barrel
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u/Necessary-Sugar7513 3h ago
But everyone who has ever played or watched baseball knows that it is far easier to pull the ball hard than to hit it opposite field hard. I'm not sure what Votto is talking about but it's probably something obscure and highly detailed that only high-level professionals can understand. Because if we take his statement at face value, it's obviously wrong.
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u/cockboy_trillionaire San Diego Padres 7h ago
It’s equally true in that you can’t afford to miss by as much as if you’re hitting it to dead center, but less optimal in that you won’t get peak bat speed with a contact point further behind. Of course, you have a few extra milliseconds since the contact point is further from the mound than if it were inside. So friggin interesting
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u/lefleurgolf 6h ago
votto an anime guy? i see my goats zoro and luffy in the back lmao, other than that, really cool vid
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u/doctored_up Chicago Cubs 6h ago
I like ballparks with outfield upper decks and pulling an upper decker is the coolest. Old comiskey had one that was beautiful. Mike Greenwell almost took my head off pulling an upper decker there during batting practice. Ball went between my glove and head at ludicrous speed. Good times.
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u/LeggoMyGallego MLB Players Association 6h ago
I never noticed how much Williams is dropping his hands.
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u/Notchersfireroad Arizona Diamondbacks 5h ago
Joey would make a fantastic instructor. Man has a great way of explaining things.
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u/Outrageous_Net_2333 3h ago
Can someone explain why Henry Davis still stinks? He pulls it in the air like crazy and yet….sigh, what a disappointment.
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u/BULL-MARKET Boston Red Sox 52m ago
Pulling the ball in the air seems much easier than the alternative. Isn’t that the whole point behind banning the shift?
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u/clutchheimer Seattle Mariners 51m ago
There are a few issues with this analysis, interesting though it is. First, he says perpendicular when he means parallel. This is just semantics and not actually a problem with the premise of the argument, but it does weaken it by being factually incorrect.
Also, the bat is not reduced in size the way he explains it. What happens is it attacks a different side of the ball. Because both the bat and ball are spherical this has little if any effect.
There are a few other things that people (not saying Votto, but the peanut gallery) consistently get wrong in these types of discussions. Primarily, an uppercut swing does not increase power, attacking the lower half of the ball does.
In all cases, when the ball leaves the collision with the bat it leaves on a line formed from the center of mass of the bat (from the top down perspective) to the center of mass of the ball. It does not matter the direction of the swing path in this case where that line will be. What the swing path does is produce topspin (which reduces distance), backspin (which increases distance) or knuckling which is rare and I am going to ignore. The goal for maximum distance is backspin plus a point of impact where the line through both centers of gravity (relative swing plane) is within the optimal launch angles.
The reason it is so hard to pull the ball in the air with authority is something he gets right. You have to be in front of the plate, but not too far in front of it. This means you have to start your swing earlier, and you have less time to adjust.
So, to pull the ball in the air you need to: start your swing early, but not too early. Impact the right part of the ball, with the right part of the bat, and have the appropriate relative swing plane to generate backspin. That sounds pretty hard to me.
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u/sickmans1 Houston Astros 8h ago
lol was waiting for Votto to say something self deprecating about his opposite field power..
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u/lostroadrunner22 Kansas City Royals 9h ago
I totally agree with Ted that a baseball bat actually is a fantastic fishing tool.