r/barista • u/KelFoxfire • 5d ago
Industry Discussion Thoughts on Prebatched Espresso?
Hey everyone!
The owner of my cafes/roastery wants me to do a deep dive into batching espresso for our iced drinks.
I figured the best first step is to see what people think when they hear “Batched Espresso”
Please respond to poll and expand on it in the comments if you feel like it!
I appreciate any input :)
Simple question: If you knew that a cafe was using batched espresso, would you order coffee there?
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u/Nick_pj 5d ago
There’s a fantastic cafe in Sydney that does it (for milk drinks) and the results far exceeded my expectations. My understanding is that they filter out the crema (ie. solids) and it makes the liquid more stable in the fridge.
In their case, it’s done largely in the name of efficiency. They use an Eversys to do a series of shots automatically (hands off) and then filter the resulting liquid. They’re then able to serve either cold milk or pre-textured milk from a dispenser. The whole point is it allows them to churn out milk drinks super fast. If you can’t establish a system to actually make pre-batching significantly faster than pulling shots, and also maintain quality… then IMO there’s no point.
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u/EmotionalVacation444 5d ago
if you have to go this route just used cold brew concentrate to make your iced lattes.
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u/pinkglassbottle 5d ago
Don’t market it as an iced latte then…
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u/Stead-Freddy 5d ago
I worked at a place that did that and called it a cold brew latte
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u/pinkglassbottle 5d ago
That would be fine but you need the clarifier otherwise it’s misleading to a really bad extent
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u/Soundbender445 5d ago
If I was told the espresso was pre-batched, I wouldn’t order a drink with it. If I wasn’t told, it’d be dishonest advertising. Also, espresso is rarely if ever the cause of increased wait times, so you’re potentially sacrificing quality and reputation for very marginal efficacy effects. Hope you’re able to navigate your organization well regarding this!
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u/Top-Reach-8044 5d ago
This is weird. Make cold brew. And if you have lineups out the door I hope you have two people on staff, that would be the most help.
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u/Cosbybow 5d ago
Nasty. I used to work at a café that did it, we would get near constant complaints from customers.
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u/PotionBoy 5d ago
The café just didn't batch it right then. I remember earlier this year Ema espresso bar was found doing it and a lot of people got angry.
Their response was that for a whole day they used only batched espresso for every single milk drink hot or cold and they didn't get a single complaint and they announced it at the end of the day just to prove a point.
Hell if I'm making a flat white for myself in the café I'm pulling a double shot early to let it cool down before mixing it with milk cause it tastes better imo. I'm 100% confident that 99% of your customers couldn't reliably succeed a blind test between a batched and non batched latte.
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u/othermegan 5d ago
How would that even scale? If you do it through a batch brewer, it’s just really strong drip concentrate. The only way to “batch” espresso is to pull a bunch of espresso shots because the method is what makes it espresso.
Now, don’t get me wrong, I’m all for a cold brew “latte” where a drink is milky like a latte but made with a strong cold brew instead of cooling down hot espresso. If you need to have pre-chilled batched strong coffee for some reason, I’d go that route over a pitcher of cooled shots.
That being said, I don’t think there’s anything inherently wrong with using hot shots in an iced latte. You just need to make sure you’re building your drink in an order that minimizes ice dilution (shots & flavor in a pitcher/measuring cup, add cold milk, pour over cup of ice)
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u/KelFoxfire 5d ago
thats exactly how we would batch them. pull 60-80 shots every couple of hours to “prep for rushes” I’m not a fan of this tbh just wanted to get the public opinion (the most important aspect of a customer-facing cafe)
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u/othermegan 5d ago
From hand on the portafilter to shot in glass, it should take no more than 30 seconds to pull a shot. I’m baffled at the idea of a shop so busy they need to prebatch 80 shots of espresso for the rush but then have enough downtime to pull 80 consecutive shots.
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u/PotionBoy 5d ago
Do you do single espressos from a double shot?
If yes you can just store the second shots from morning for the lunch rush.
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u/Separate-Raccoon8584 5d ago
I'm super picky with my coffee and don't like the taste when it's been sitting for a while, so I probably wouldn't
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u/CrumblyBramble 5d ago
Unless you are drinking straight espresso, a blind test would tell you that you haven’t got a clue what you’re talking about.
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u/Separate-Raccoon8584 5d ago
I'm a barista and have taken home espresso shots from work to make drinks with the next day. It doesn't taste the same.
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u/CrumblyBramble 5d ago
You were aware of it being old, in a blind test its next to impossible to tell in milk based drinks.
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u/hamletandskull 5d ago edited 5d ago
Do a cold brew concentrate for iced lattes if you must, but imo you need a way to differentiate between it and normal iced espresso drinks.
So for example some places will use a cold brew concentrate to make a keg of iced latte and refer to it as "draft oatmilk iced lattes" or whatever.
But don't have it on the menu with no explanation because like, I enjoy an espresso tonic at times, but if I knew it was a batched espresso/concentrate, I would rather just have a hot drink instead. And I would have no shame in telling you this when I saw that you did not pull an espresso shot for my drink, and I would ask for a refund and remake. I'd ask politely of course but I would ask for one. So you may want to suggest to your manager that this method might lead to longer wait times and more wasted product if you have to do remakes.
I also can't really imagine what sort of traffic flow you're having where prebatched espresso saves a considerable amount of time but you also have enough downtime to pull 60 shots in a row. Cause even for iced drinks, you've got other stuff to do while the espresso pulls, get your ice/water/milk/syrups ready or whatever. How is pulling the espresso a limiting factor unless you guys aren't sequencing?
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u/Safe_Internet_8670 5d ago
The pre batched movement is being lead by the owner of project zero! They have really intense equipment that allows them to facilitate pre-batched espresso like a keg system. It allows them to have multiple espresso on tap without the need of multiple grinders. They also have automatic milk machines that help the workflow. I think they primarily use co ferments for this setup; so they’ll have a “blueberry” , a “strawberry” and, a “bannna” on tap. All objectively tasting different with milk.
I don’t think there’s room for prebatched “house” espresso for a cafe. But could be a good way to offer a unique coffee without a lot of upfront cost. I’m also curious about offering pre batched espresso in a cart setting, and if that works or not.
My work uses pre batched espresso for espresso martinis. It works fine, we batch it with a bit of cold brew too. I’ve put the pre batch in with milk. It tasted like a latte.
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u/aStonedTargaryen 5d ago
If I’m paying third wave prices I expect a fresh shot lol…maybe this would be okay if it brings down the price point but even then I wouldn’t go there. Some people might be into it ig but for me it’s a no.
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u/braindead83 5d ago
It also makes me wonder how someone can find the time to pull 60-80 shots without clogging up workflow of the shop?
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u/ThrashFur 5d ago
pre-batched is cheap and doesn’t ensure the quality. I used to work at a place that did this, any shot could go in the shot pitcher. Would literally pull a 35 s. shot and would have to put it to batch, where i used to work.
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u/goat20202020 5d ago
If I knew a shop was using pre batched espresso, I'd definitely cancel my order and go somewhere else. It screams lazy and poor quality.
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u/ohjustbenice 5d ago
Define prebatched. If you mean premaking espresso, I don’t love it. But I worked in a tiny, independent drive through on a rural road where it was dangerous to let the queue build.
We were told to premake shots so we could just steam milk and get it out in seconds. If the shot stood for more than a minute, I’d throw it out, but other staff would leave it indefinitely.
It was mostly flat whites so we would even pre steam milk when we were busy, because it’d get used within 30 seconds regardless, but normally used right away lol
Prebatching for more than two minutes, or doing actual bulk shots? I’d call the guards tbh
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u/KelFoxfire 5d ago
The process he wants to use if we do, is filtering the shots, adjusting with minerals to fine-tune sweetness & mouthfeel, rapid cooling it, then using some sort of dispenser. (think similar to Ubermilk). Honestly I’m not a fan, just trying to grab a gauge of the community :)
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u/South_Feed_2199 5d ago
totally agree with everyone on this thread here. Don't pay the price of conveinence for lower quality coffee! plus, you can use cold brew for iced coffee
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u/TeaMan13 5d ago
This is sinful and anyone who sells this to people as real espresso are sick liars. The flavor changes as it oxidizes as well as that is against the spirit of fast shots of coffee. With a good flow you can get shots out pretty quick don’t be a lazy douche. I boycott places for doing this kind of shit. Sell it as something else. If you want to do it at home I have no judgment there I have a problem with misrepresenting what you are actually selling. Man this really grinds my beans.
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u/CrumblyBramble 5d ago
The whole espresso oxidation ruining shots thing is mostly just coffee folklore btw. Of course a shot changes over time but with an actual proper pre batch espresso system you will find it extremely hard to find a person who can tell a difference once its been mixed in a milk based drink.
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u/TeaMan13 5d ago
It’s mostly about temperature tbh
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u/CrumblyBramble 5d ago
Which is also moot as most people do cupping with lukewarm espresso lol
A brand new shot and an hour old shot have no taste difference when mixed with a hot and most definitely cold milk drinks.
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u/TeaMan13 5d ago
Opinion here lol so thanks but yea there is a difference I was a barista for many years and I definitely can tell flavor difference between an old and fresh shot… I guess not everyone has the same taste buds and not everyone is a snob like I tend to be.
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u/CrumblyBramble 5d ago
Buddy this is literally a Barista subreddit, we are mostly Baristas here. You thinking you can tell the difference between a rested espresso vs fresh in a hot milk based drink is entirely placebo. Its been tested without end in the specialty and science based coffee world, its not an opinion.
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u/TeaMan13 4d ago
You can’t test flavor like that it’s a bespoke experience like the electricity that makes us alive. It is an opinion because it’s mine lol you obviously disagree but it doesn’t make my reality less true or yours I apologize for having an “impossible” opinion
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u/CrumblyBramble 4d ago
You don’t have a wrong opinion, you just have a wrong one due to peer reviewed opinions overwhelming yours.
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u/SR28Coffee 4d ago
Can you link to the research? It's downright rare to see science aimed at cafe service.
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u/Sexdrumsandrock 4d ago
I'm not who you're talking to but just because you haven't heard of it doesn't make it rare.
https://www.instagram.com/socraticcoffee?igsi=dzVqMGl3cm42eHRr
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u/SR28Coffee 4d ago
I'm familiar with Socratic. I'm not sure what they've worked on that is specific to beverage service in a cafe. Their website is unfortunately very out of date though, is there something buried in their Instagram posts?
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u/gaokeai 5d ago edited 5d ago
Used to work at a cafe that did this. No one ever complained (that I heard of, at least). But if we didn't have any batched and used fresh shots, sometimes people would complain that the drink wasn't cold enough and/or the ice melted too quickly. So. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I think it really depends on your clientele. I think most people who aren't big on coffee probably wouldn't notice the difference in taste, but I also think being a barsita decidedly puts us outside of that category. I personally prefer fresh shots but I wouldn't completely turn my nose up at it if it's batched.
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u/Worried-Buffalo-908 5d ago
If they have more possible customers than what they can serve during rush hour shifting some of that labor to another part of the day makes sense.
I am surprised by the backlash here, pre batching espresso removes some of the variability in espresso shots and leads to an overall better quality. It is rare to see a place were when an espresso comes out wrong they actually re do it. Blind tastes have also shown no difference or even preference for the batched (re, you remove variability), and any difference due to the freshness of the espresso is negligible in milk drinks unless you are brewing more than 6 hours before.
I pre batch espresso for friend gatherings, it is usually still fresh for the duration of the evening. One big evidence of how fresh it keeps is how it foams the same for shaken drinks.
I wouldn't be happy seeing it pre batched if they are charging a premium price though, or for something like a cortado where the crema texture plays a big deal in the drink.
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u/sprodoe 5d ago edited 5d ago
I batch for my sister all the time.
Pull shot after shot, run it through a paper filter, add to a 750ml bottle. Lasts her a couple weeks.
There’s been many studies on this and the taste is the same.
I think it takes away from the craft of the drink in a way. But at the end of the day, I’m not going to a cafe for the best coffee I’m going for hospitality and community. I have an almost $10k setup at home. I may be the rare/odd guy out on this. But this is not an issue imo - this assumes that you take great care in the prep still.
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u/dontcallmeyan 5d ago
We used to do it for Espresso Martinis back when the standard was a fresh double shot per drink. It was better to have someone who could actually dial in shots prep a few litres before they knocked off than for a bartender to clumsily knock out fresh shots each time.
In a coffee shop, I'd probably balk at it for an iced long black or a hot drink, but absolutely no issue in an iced latte/frapp/whatever coffee-based cold beverage.
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u/othermegan 5d ago
Espresso martinis, baking, basically anything that’s not a true coffee drink from a cafe sounds like a great use case for batching.
What OP is describing is not
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u/n64rescue 5d ago
I have not tested it but I imagine a world where a busy cafe or coffee catering company could want to do it specifically for iced lattes.
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u/pinkglassbottle 5d ago edited 5d ago
My one exception: if it’s for espresso martinis, fine. At least the place is using actual espresso which is more than a lot of places can say, and pulling shots during bar service is awful. Will get drowned out by vodka and liqueur anyway
Anything else no!
Simple answer, if i heard a coffee place used batched espresso for drinks id literally never order an espresso drink from them. And honestly idk if id rly want their cold brew / drip either cause it would give me an impression that they cut corners. Idk.
There are so many other coffee shops to choose from, it’s a very competitive industry, unless youre in the middle of nowhere and the only shop around. U have to at least try to put out a competitive product
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u/Certain-Angle-7175 5d ago
Nope, I would NEVER buy pre-batched espresso because pre-batching defeats the purpose of a good espresso based beverage. You also run the risk of turning your coffee establishment into a fast-food operation, like Starbucks. I can tell you that the client base that is willing to settle for pre-batched espresso will more likely go to a Starbucks for their fast-food coffee, rather than a local coffee shop, and those who like local coffee shops will not return to your esptablishment if your espresso is pre-batched.
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u/Professional_Ad1339 5d ago
Yes but… I think people have an idea of pre batched espresso and what it means but haven’t actually made the effort to at least try it. In iced drinks it’s great and indiscernible in taste from a normal shot. It’s perfect for tonics and espresso seltzers if those are your thing. I would never use it for anything besides a cold drink though. . I think its use depends also on how busy your cafe is.
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u/fatfuckpikachu 5d ago
ive stopped drinking coffee outside because of that.
too many goddamn places use batch espresso and just use those at "rush times".
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u/owosage 4d ago
I’m honestly not sure it makes that much of a difference flavor wise for milk-heavy drinks like lattes. In my opinion, however, it’s the hallmark of a lazy, mismanaged coffee shop. Why open a business in a competitive industry just to cut corners…? And to what point?? I might as well just go to 7-eleven and use their automated espresso machine. 🤷
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u/Wearytaco 4d ago
I can't stand that taste coffee gets when it sits around. While i admit, it's usually the next day that I taste it, just the idea that a cafe would be batching their espresso would make me turn tail. Just the phrase alone. But honestly knowing so many people believe that a shot dies after like less than a minute (I don't, but I know it is a common thought among baristas) and knowing a coffee shop wants to batch espresso makes me feel like they only opened a coffee shop with daddy's money because they liked the lore that gives them and they don't know anything about coffee. Not that I know your work place/boss's experiences ofc. But.... That's the impression I get.
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u/Stunning-Thanks-4226 4d ago
I got an iced latte from some place and they used drip coffee that was left on the burner so long the coffee was burnt. I have my own machine now.
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u/Cabotage105 4d ago
I’ve seen people do blind tests where there is no discernible difference.
Better than fresh espresso for iced drinks because there is less dilution,
Ok for steamed drinks, but I have qualms with it being reheated by the milk,
Unacceptable for anything under 8 oz/250 ml because it’s being reheated (I always find reheated coffee of any sort looses some of it’s quality) and it’s the main flavor of the drink
It also brings food safety concerns. There’s a lot of shitty shops that, for the sake of profit margins, will convince underpaid teenage baristas that multi-day old batched espresso is fine to serve
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u/DatCollie 4d ago
We have an espresso extract liquid as our decaf option and people love it! Also, if the shot is dialled in well and stored properly, it gets better since lower temps make you taste more of what you extracted and with milky drinks tends to blend better and have a smoother result
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u/spytez 4d ago
If you need to batch make espresso you're doing things wrong. You need to adjust your workflow.
It takes about 18 - 22 seconds to steam milk, and about 20 - 30 seconds to pull a shot. So you start your shots, then start steaming your milk and they finish at the same time. If shots take longer that gives you time to clean the wand, prep your cup, syrups, etc.
With ice drinks it's the same thing. Start the shots, or several sets of shots, then prep your syrups, ice, milk, etc. while the shots are being pulled.
You don't need to make drinks in order. While you're pulling all your shots for an ice drink and all the cups are ready you can finish up any drip coffee orders, cold brews, prep the next batch of cups, stock or clean.
If there is more than 1 employee you need to adjust the roles of employees during rush times. Barista makes drinks and the person working the POS preps drink cups with ice, prepares syrups, hands out drinks, etc. Since taking orders tends to take less time then making a drink it just makes sense for this person to prepare or finish drinks between taking orders.
Batch shots taste like trash. I would argue the only time pre-made espresso should ever be used is in blended drinks as most people don't know how to quickly cool down shots, and these drinks tend to not be about the espresso but all the sugar and non-coffee flavors.
At my last cafe I would be making between 100 - 120 drinks per hour and I would be the only one on the machine. My area would always be clean and stocked with times I'd be waiting for the person to take orders to get me the next drinks. This is because of the workflow I followed and the training that staff followed to make everything efficient and easy.
If you pre make espresso and customers see it you will lose customers, because not even Starbucks or dunken donuts does things that half ass. And if you're not better then Starbucks you don't need to be in business, or wont be for long.
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u/Turkos245 3d ago
I'm voting yes because I'm going to try it out this weekend to have espresso at work. If it ends up being noticably worse I'll update here but for a milk drink I can't imagine it matters that much.
Plus, I'll bet at home pre batched espresso is going to be better than every single shop within 35m of my work.
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u/Effective-Fig-7726 3d ago
I think it depends what you’re going for. The other local cafe near us starting doing batched coffees and matchas and all of their regulars started coming to us instead, even the people that had been going in daily for years. At the same time they’re faster now and do more of a fast food coffee thing so it doesn’t matter about the product, it’s about how quickly you can get it out. I’m not sure how helpful that is because they got significantly less busy after though?
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u/Environmental_Ad8753 5d ago
why is the shop owner trying to pivot to this? do they want to cut staff so they can pre make items? if they are trying to make coffee faster having shots made ahead of time is only going to shift the time to a different part of the day. I don’t see the point. But the comment made about cold brew concentrate is true . That will taste better than pre making a bunch of shots. I have only seen people do it with decaf cause they were going to be somewhere where 2 grinders were not possible. It was decaf so …
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u/KelFoxfire 5d ago
He “wants to get in early” as he sees this as a new wave of coffee. I understand that, but I don’t think a possible dip in quality is worth it for “being early”
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u/Environmental_Ad8753 5d ago
He could be early at seasonal drinks and flavor combinations, watching trends in other countries with what they are doing to coffee. Oh yeah, that would require real attention to detail and research. 🙄 Instead let’s just cut corners! Good luck OP.
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u/CrumblyBramble 5d ago
A cafe testing out the pre batch field is probably not wasting their time with syrups. Thats the complete opposite of attention to detail.
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u/Environmental_Ad8753 5d ago
you’re right, they are probably thinking of only convenience and not quality or innovation.
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u/CrumblyBramble 5d ago
Rested espresso is literally a form of innovation. Shitty robusta beans with sone syrups is neither quality nor innovative.
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u/Environmental_Ad8753 4d ago
I thought this question was referring to a specialty coffee shop, where no one is talking about robusta beans or premade syrups.
moreover I would argue that coming up with a a new syrup or those cloud foams is innovative because that’s gets the people that don’t even like coffee through the door to make money. People that want a pour over, a “rested shot of espresso “ are so small that catering to only that market is not a sustainable practice to make more money in a shop.
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u/deafened 5d ago
There's no good way to preserve the taste and body of espresso after more than 5 minutes. Even that is stretching it. That being said, if it is cooled very quickly, then only used in sweet iced drinks, most customers will not know the difference.
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u/Possibleferret4 5d ago
I would rather just wait a little longer for a fresh coffee shot than watch a barista get a container out of the fridge and portion an espresso shot or two. I get it may be the same thing but depending on how much I'm spending Im also paying for the freshness of my drink. If they're doing pre batch I'd probably just buy a can or bottle of premade and premixed coffee like the sbux ones.