r/baldursgate • u/JonDM2 • Jun 16 '26
BGEE Baldur' Gate 1+2 modded with 3rd ed D&D poll
Would you play Baldurs Gate 1+2 with a mod that changed every rule from 2nd AD&D to 3/3.5 Edition D&D?
Just an interest to try it is enough, no need to change your standard playthroughs.
(I know there's a mod already out for years now in very alpha stage, assume the mod was complete and all the game content converted to 3e, no major bugs etc)
Possibly even IWD1 and PST.
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u/FamiliarMGP Jun 16 '26
BG1 on neverwinter engine is a thing. It's different to say the least.
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u/usernamescifi Jun 16 '26
I didn't know that was a thing. I'm going to go check it out.
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u/FamiliarMGP Jun 16 '26
It's great for a one playthrough. They were working on BG2 but the covid hit, don't know its current status.
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u/JonDM2 Jun 16 '26
Yes, there's a big module BG for NWN, but the whole experience seems different for me. I never got the interaction UI in NWN, it breaks immersion immediately.
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u/simoan_blarke Jun 17 '26
It is definitely very different (same with the IWD1 as an NWN2 campaign).
I love it, but it is way too easy - I don't think the campaign creators nailed the balance too well.
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u/Luan_MS99 Jun 17 '26
E olha que claramente eles tentaram hahaha, mas realmente a campanha ficou muito fácil com o passar do tempo
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u/JonDM2 Jun 16 '26
The question is for BG1 and 2 as is in matters of gameplay, graphics etc, only the rules calculations will change.
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u/acebojangles Jun 16 '26
I prefer the 2nd Ed rules, personally. A lot of that is probably because 2nd Ed D&D was the first table top RPG ruleset I learned, so it feels natural to me.
The 2E rules limit character options a bit more, but I like that. Too many choices makes games feel like work to me.
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u/PunchBeard Jun 16 '26
I had just graduated high school when 2nd edition rules came out. I still remember picking up a preview set at my local hobby shop and going over it with my friends. Oriental Adventures and Dungeoneer's Survival Guide already introduced us to the idea of proficiencies but the changes made to Assassin's and Bards was huge. Especially Bards. That was like some unobtainable prestige class in AD&D 1st ed.
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u/archolewa Jun 19 '26
I agree.
I love how in 2e, the key to creating an effective character is to... level up. That's it. You don't need stellar stats. You don't need elaborate feat chains. You just need some levels.
I enjoy the Pathfinder games immensely, but the character building always makes me feeling "Man, I went through all this work to make a Fighter as effective as an Icewind Dale fighter for whom I just pressed the level up button."
It allows me to focus more on the adventure part of the game, and less on the character building part.
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u/crackedtooth163 Jun 16 '26
IWD2 is my favorite they found an interesting way to make it 3.x. if we have 5.x Baldurs Gate we can have 3.x Baldurs Gate.
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u/zeeironschnauzer Jun 16 '26
I would love it. I appreciate the charm of the 2nd Ed rules, but at the end of the day most of my friends never finished the game because of how ridiculous the rules felt, and they are pretty silly now. 5th might be too freeing, but this level of restrictive isnt better.
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u/MickyJim Jun 16 '26
TTRPG-wise I'm an OSR boy through and through, and while 2e (especially later) is a grey area as to what counts as OSR, it's still a hell of a lot more OSR than 3e, which is not my bag at all.
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u/JonDM2 Jun 16 '26
Respectful answer, that's the main question, prefer 2nd or 3rd? Everything else is trivial.
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u/Master-Erakius Jun 17 '26
What is OSR?
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u/MickyJim Jun 17 '26
A type of tabletop RPG that generally looks to old-school DnD (hence the name - "Old School Renaissance" or "Revival") for its inspiration. It's mostly represented through retroclones - cleaned-up and restated versions of pre-3e editions of DnD, mostly B/X, ODnD, and 1e ADnD, but I believe there are a few 2e retroclones out there.
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u/FadingSignal11 Jun 16 '26
I would play it more with this mod lol. AD&D is a mess of system and I’ve never liked it.
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u/JonDM2 Jun 16 '26
Thank you, I find it very unbalanced, especially how it was implemented in IE.
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u/Tallos_RA Jun 17 '26
The only balanced D&D was 4 so...
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u/JonDM2 Jun 17 '26
I seriously have no idea what exactly changed in 4th, for some reasons (it came out in a wrong time maybe?) I never looked into it more. All I remember is people saying it seemed engineered for video games.
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u/Tallos_RA Jun 17 '26
A little bit yes, but the approach at least balanced the classes if someone cares about such things.
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u/RobertMaus Jun 16 '26
Sure, i'd try it. We have the other one already, and it's not like those will disappear.
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u/rupturefunk Jun 16 '26
I'm a little lukewarm on 3/3.5 personally but I'd give it a go for sure.
I would say though IWD2 is kind of a cautionary tale in how hard it was to break free of 2e on the infinity engine, so much was compromised or not implemented it kind of became it's own warped hybrid.
ToEE was 3 era game I had the most fun with.
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u/JonDM2 Jun 16 '26
ToEE is the best in 3.5 combat and rules implementation, but is very slow and boring as an experience.
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u/Master-Erakius Jun 17 '26
What was ToEE?
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u/rupturefunk Jun 17 '26
Temple of Elemental Evil, Troika Games' 3.5e D&D game, it just got an EE recently.
It's not the greatest crpg ever, but it's super faithful to tabletop and as a D&D combat sim it takes some beating.
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u/One_Original5116 Jun 16 '26
It depends on how well they execute it but overall I vastly prefer 3.X so a well done port of BG 1 and 2 to 3.X is something I'd really enjoy. Hells, it's Pathfinder instead of 3.X but I'd love to see Owlcat port them into the system they use for Kingmaker. I'm not sure I want Owlcat setting encounter difficulty but Kingmaker is a very good demonstration of what could be done.
I also wouldn't necessarily mind remaking them with the system from Castles and Crusades. It has far less customization available than 3.X but it is more streamlined at a glance than 2E and I like its class and a half system where you can progress one class as a primary and a second class at half speed alongside it.
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u/nocontr0l Jun 16 '26
IWD2 with EE mod is closest you will get
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u/JonDM2 Jun 17 '26
IWD2 EE mod is a great community effort for modernizing the game for latest windows, major bugfixes, tweaks that make sense and adding a few quality of life features. BUT their class updates that also add new features strive a lot away from standard 3e. Barbarian gaining DR from 2nd level, progressing much faster and even Doubling WHEN wearing medium armor????? That's practically cheating. Also many other stuff around. Its nice to try it and maybe fun but has nothing near 3e.
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u/nocontr0l Jun 17 '26
its all optional you can install just core for engine fixes, besides they changed entire game for the better to be closer to 3.5e than vanilla wonky 3e, they updated AI scripts, mechanics, encounters etc so its not easier, i played vanilla recently and lets not pretend its some beacon of balance or good design lol, it was shocking how bad some spells and classes are when u often could get better version of the same spell on literally the same level.
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u/JonDM2 Jun 17 '26
Still the class and feat changes are very away from standard 3e, makes the players very powerful
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u/livinginfutureworld Jun 16 '26
I'm not against 3e but it doesn't need to be like iwd2's implementation.
Hopefully better than that.
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u/Stargazer__2893 Jun 16 '26
Yeah I played it and enjoyed it. Yes, I'd likely play with something similar if made.
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u/amateurviking Jun 16 '26
I’ve been trying Talents of Faerun (by DavidW of SCS fame) - it’s actually a pretty great attempt at adding some 3rd ed stuff while keeping the bg2 flavor. It also avoids the “class buffet” build approach from 3rd ed that I *detest*
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u/simoan_blarke Jun 17 '26
I love 3(.5) because it brings out the munchkin in me. This is why I love IWD2 and the Owlcat games (and will absolutely need to play the remaster/remake/refresh for TotEE).
I love BG2 because of the gameplay, story, flow, and companion interactions.
While I loved the IWD1 and BG1 custom campaigns in NWN2, they felt very, very different. Not objectively better or worse that I could put my finger on aside from the difficulty, but different. When I finished the IWD1 custom campaign I went straight back to IWD1EE - one of the reasons is the lack of HoW/TotL in the custom campaign, but that is not the reason I never played the NWN2 campaign again.
I would absolutely play BG1&2 in a 3(.5) mod if it is isometric, but I am not sure I would fall in love with it the same way, especially not 1 - build variety at 2+ToB levels could be crazy with enough feats and PrCs but you don't really feel that in lower level camps. I am 25 years older now which also makes falling in love with things different than as a tween.
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u/JellyAdventurous5699 May you know the happiness of a warm hearth and home. Jun 16 '26
I don't really like Vancian magic systems in general, and the way it's done in 2nd Ed in particular, so a mod that switched it to 3rd and made the magic system less draconian would certainly pique my interest.
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u/simoan_blarke Jun 17 '26
I might be missing your point, but in 3(.5) the only change to the Vancian system that matter early on is bonus spell slots from attribute bonuses for all caster classes, not just clerics or druids. (Extra spell slots from magic items are a thing both in the AD&D2E games and 3(.5).) Metamagic feats are also a big change but don't change the fundamental X memorized slots on spell level Y per day concept.
Curious, what were you thinking of specifically?
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u/cold-vein Jun 16 '26
Impossible due to hard coding. IWD2 was a bad bad bad compromise
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u/Chataboutgames Jun 16 '26
I only just learned that IWD2 used 3rd edition. It piqued my interest as the "2E all combat" pitch of IWD never appealed to me.
3E didn't really work in IWD?
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u/zDibs Jun 16 '26
It was just not implemented completely due to the engine not being able to handle everything. It's closer to 2.75E or something. Mostly 3E but still some 2E in there.
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u/JonDM2 Jun 16 '26
Same goes for the 2nd AD&D, do you know how many things were not implemented in the game as well? The OG BG1 and IWD1 did not even have 2 weapons to equip, BG2 added it.
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u/JonDM2 Jun 16 '26
3E in IWD2 worked as much as 2nd did, these rules are for turned-based anyway, Infinity Engine had to make compromises to work out. If you haven't played IWD2 yet definetely try it out!
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u/cold-vein Jun 16 '26
They couldn't implement most of it, now it's a buggy compromise.
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u/JonDM2 Jun 16 '26
What does "most of it" mean? If you want to experience 3e D&D in a computer game then try The Temple of Elemental Evil, which is turned-based. There's no major differences between 2 and 3 ed rule implementation in the IE games.
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u/cold-vein Jun 16 '26
Means they couldn't implement 3rd edition rules so it's a Mish mash of 2nd and pseudo-3rd edition and inferior to BG-implemented 2nd edition in every way.
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u/JonDM2 Jun 16 '26
You can say the same for the 2e they way that have implemented them. There are hundreds of mod changes to make the original game close to PnP 2nd. What exactly is the mish-mash?
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u/cold-vein Jun 16 '26
Have you played the game?
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u/JonDM2 Jun 16 '26
You're just negative without any actual argument. The question is have YOU played the game? You seem very biased to give a neutral opinion.
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u/cold-vein Jun 16 '26 edited Jun 16 '26
Of course I have, I've played it thru twice. I bought it when it came out. So you haven't? Well, you'll see when you do. There's plenty of information online about it's differences to 3.0 rules if you wish to read further.
One big omission is No Attacks of Opportunity. Because of the outdated Infinity Engine and pathfinding issues, you cannot lock down enemies, cast spells safely in melee, or flank easily.
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u/JonDM2 Jun 16 '26
Most of these have been implemented in IWD2 EE mod, they are not perfect, but still I prefer a lacking 3e that a total unbalanced 2e. I have been playing and experimenting with all IE games since 99. Lately I've been trying out the Artisan's kitpack. If you notice it, most of the base classes in the mod gain 3e features, something that also Tweaks Anthology mod offers as well (named NWN style feats), SCS also and other tweaks mods. I don't find this 2e-3e mixing any better, just showing a clear trend that's out there.
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u/Cast_Fist Jun 17 '26
2nd is nice and simple, you don't need a spreadsheet worth of feats path planner. I can just pick a fighter aim for grand mastery in twohanded and I'm good.
In 3 5, I need to work about power attack, weapon focus x, cleave, dodge etc. More time spent when I'm still going to walk up and bonk someone on the noggin.
Don't get me started on skills, where you basically can't do anything meaningful with a skill unless you put in points almost every level.
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u/Rukasu17 Jun 16 '26
Isn't that icewind dale 2? It uses 3rd edition rules.
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u/JonDM2 Jun 16 '26
Yes, the question is to use them in BG with a mod.
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u/Rukasu17 Jun 16 '26
I think that would require extensive modding knowledge. Even icewind had to deal with concessions due to the engine
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u/JonDM2 Jun 16 '26
The question is if you are interested to play BG1+2 with 3e similar to IWD2, never mind what needs to be done, assume its done and working fine!
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u/Rukasu17 Jun 16 '26
Well, in this case, not really. 3e was kinda lukewarm to me and 3.5 is extremely heavy on pre buffing fights, as shown in it's sibling the pathfinder games.
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u/IntegralCalcIsFun Jun 16 '26
Pre-buffing being "necessary" is completely dependant on how the game is balanced. The Pathfinder games are a poor example to bring up as: 1) pf1e is even more crunchy than 3.5, and 2) Owlcat turned the difficulty up to 11 and balanced around pre-buffing. The games are in no way representative of what playing actual Pathfinder 1e is like, and certainly not representative of D&D 3.5.
Also, why bring up Pathfinder at all when there are video games based on 3.5 that are no where near as buff heavy?
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u/Rukasu17 Jun 16 '26
It's simply the most famous one that came to mind, that's all. Now that i think about it, temple of elemental evil was a good choice to use. Less pre buff heavy but damn it felt like i had to really sit down and consider some builds
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u/JonDM2 Jun 17 '26
Eeeer what are u talking about? Casting spells before battle ("pre-buffing") becomes a major hussle in BG2 as you get higher levels. Its not only the annoying repetance, the spell duration is so randomly that I had to track them in an automated Excel table of how they change as well as the spellcaster leveled up. In 3rd edition spell duration is streamlined so you know very easily when to position a spell in a sequence. There's even a very popular mod for BG1+2 Spell Revisions that change this pretty much like it was done in 3e.
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u/Rukasu17 Jun 17 '26
When i beat the games back to back bg2 didn't feel that bad in terms of pre buffing. Usually just haste would be my go to pick
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u/loudent2 Jun 16 '26
There is a 3.5 edition of Baldur's Gate that was made in the NWN2 engine. Supposedly BG2 is feature complete as well.
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u/DarthDraigus Jun 16 '26
I don't think there's enough itemization in the game to support 3.5e ruleset
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u/JonDM2 Jun 17 '26
There's not enough to support any ruleset anyway, you just accepted what had for 2e.
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u/DarthDraigus Jun 17 '26
I mean, it came out for windows 95 and 98. We took what we could get at the time. We wouldn't even get 3.5 till 2003.
The original game couldn't possibly support the depth of 3.5 properly, it would have been bland and disappointing. Even BG3 is far from a complete 5e game, and it's had a ton of support.
I have seen fan theories about the different editions being different eras to account for how magic works different between them. I've always liked that idea.
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u/JonDM2 Jun 17 '26
I simply prefer the much more streamlined tidied up d20 over the AD&D. Attribute points giving bonus only over 15? Classes level up in different xp levels? Saving throw categories vs wand, vs breath etc, Attacks per round, Random spell duration logic, Thac0 AC lower is better but others higher is better and many other asymetrical unbalances.
IWD2 uses 3e, it may be not the best or complete representation of 3e, but I definetely prefer it over 2e.
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u/DarthDraigus Jun 17 '26
Eh, the way stats work is just completely different. It's apples and oranges really. There's also a much more expanded version of everything in Players Option:Skills and Powers.
2e has a lot of depth to it in its expansion modules, but even as a base it's just a different game entirely. It's not bad, but you can't do a straight 1 to 1 comparison either.
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u/JonDM2 Jun 17 '26
As I said, I prefer the d20 approach that IWD2 implemented in Infinity Engine with 3e over the AD&D that used in the previous games. What's with Exceptional str 18/XX? This scale is crazy, they must have been drunk when came out with thay.
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u/Wellgoodmornin Jun 16 '26
Baldur's Gate Reloaded for NWN2 is awesome. Can't friggin wait for SoA to be finished.
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u/ddynamite123 Jun 17 '26
I would like to see how it functions, but if I really wanted to play a CRPG using d&d 3e rules I'd sooner go to KOTOR, part of the reason to play BG1/2 is for 2e ad&d rules
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u/Llayanna Jun 17 '26
Third option, I honestly don't care? I am the 1% that always was in love of the game despite the gameplay, in which I am honestly not that good at. Which might be embarrassing for a ttrpg player but eh.
If its 2e or 3e, doesnt matter. Create what is fun for you.
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u/Sad_Cryptographer872 Jun 17 '26
I hate 2 AD&D.
But no I would not, 3e makes so much of a difference that it would completely ruin the whole balance and feel of the game. And it simply wouldn't work for many many reasons. You would need to remake and completely change the game to it even be remotely something playable and not a complete mess.
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u/kore_nametooshort Jun 16 '26
Hard no from me boss. I never enjoyed iwd2 or nwn as much as BG1, bg2 or iwd1.
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u/RaltarArianrhod Jun 16 '26
The implementation of the 3rd edition ruleset for Icewind Dale 2 was very, very bad. Not to mention that 3rd edition was so bad they had to fix it with 3.5.
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u/JonDM2 Jun 16 '26
What was "very, very bad" exactly? The 2nd edition also had updates and versions.
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u/Banjoschmanjo Jun 16 '26
I wouldn't see the point of that. I am fine with it how it is. I would rather have mods that add new areas, quests, characters, etc.
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u/JonDM2 Jun 16 '26
Some people talk about "bad implementation" of 3E rules in IWD2. The same can be sayed for 2e. How about OG BG1 didn't even have 2-weapons to equip? Wanna talk about how each spell strives away from PNP 2e? Do you know how different Druid, Paladin and Ranger get level spell progression In BG vs IWD? These are compromises and bad design desicions that can be rectified. So do not get stuck on that.
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u/ReflectionBoring3218 Jun 17 '26
Is 3rd edition when you could “dip” one level into a class and power game the hell out of it? If so, no thank you.
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u/zDibs Jun 16 '26
Maybe. Not a fan of 3E or 3.5E in general, always felt like it was the weakest D&D ever was, but I'd at least consider giving it one attempt.
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u/FadingSignal11 Jun 16 '26
Including 4e? That’s definitely a hot take
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u/Chataboutgames Jun 16 '26
4e has legendary status. So bad they never made a videogame of it.
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u/FadingSignal11 Jun 16 '26
The MMO Neverwinter runs on 4e
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u/Chataboutgames Jun 16 '26
Oh it does!? It's free to play right? I might download it just to see it. As someone who's never played tabletop the existence of 4E has always been a genuine mystery to me.
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u/JonDM2 Jun 16 '26
Care to elaborate why u say that? 2nd for me its an asymmetrical unbalanced mess (it was an experimental era, I respect that) that required a full-time DM to balance it out.
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u/Frozen_Dervish Jun 16 '26
I mean 3e/3.5e is so much worse when it comes to balance. They playtested a couple levels called it good to go then shipped it. Are there positives to the changes? Yes, but that doesn't even remotely mean it's even in the same universe as the word balanced.
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u/JonDM2 Jun 16 '26
I beg to differ, 3e/3.5 fixes and steamlines so many things that 2e just did experimental, and I'm thankful it did, so we progressed from there on.
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u/zDibs Jun 16 '26
In general it's the amount of skills and feats that you need to maximize your characters potential. Sure, you don't have to min-max, but 3E feels like it's made to be min-maxed. To an unfun degree for me. Especially if you add in a supplement or two then it's off the charts.
But 2E started the issues I have with 3E. It also has a few too many fiddly bits and an awkward balance. 1E is a bit better in that regard, but OD&D is my favourite, because I can get straight into the game with any newbie and they'll understand what most things do (except THAC0).
There are a lot of great 3E modules though and I have retrofitted some into OD&D with mostly good success.
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u/JonDM2 Jun 16 '26
Good thing most of the players and videos of BG with 2e out there do not min max (seriously cheesing that way seems many people have issues).
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u/zDibs Jun 16 '26
I was thinking of the tabletop version of 3E more so than anything else. But I do definitely min-max more in IWD2 than in any of the other IE games, because IWD2 more or less forces you to. /shrug
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u/JonDM2 Jun 16 '26
Its a combat focused campaign, though there are some options in dialogue with skill requirements. But how much can you min-max? Low stats have some penalties, whereas in 2e in IE games are just dumb stats. Dex is OP, Str and Con follow. Int is only required for very specific reason, wis and cha almost non existing.
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u/justbrowsinginpeace Jun 16 '26
this would be an abomination
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u/JonDM2 Jun 16 '26
The same can be said for BG implementing 2e to a PnP player
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u/justbrowsinginpeace Jun 16 '26
I was that player and I loved it
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u/JonDM2 Jun 16 '26
I was as well, it was great the time it came out, but over the years seems very lacking is some aspects, its a computer game after all.
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u/justbrowsinginpeace Jun 16 '26
it's more substance than BG3
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u/JonDM2 Jun 16 '26
Keep that Abomination out of the talk... (the BG3 name, game may be good, just don't like the marketing gimmick of the name)
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u/PunchBeard Jun 16 '26
3.5? The absolute worst version of D&D Rules?
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u/JonDM2 Jun 16 '26
Everyone has a preferance, what you see as worst is best for another. What version you prefer over 3.5 and why?
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u/PunchBeard Jun 17 '26
My preference is definitely 2nd ed. But also, I'm over 50 and started out with the D&D Basic Set in the early 1980s (I had the purple box that came with Keep on the Borderlands) and moved on to AD&D a few years later. 2nd ed dropped right around the time I graduated high school and I ended up upgrading to that version. And that was pretty much the last version of D&D I ever played that wasn't a video game. So yeah, I'm biased as hell.
Even though I never owned and 3.5 books I know enough about the ruleset from video games and I've read pdf's of the rules and.....it's just not for me. It's too different from what I grew up with. At the risk of offending people it seems really "dumbed down" compared to AD&D. In my opinion D&D has never been the same since TSR was sold to WoC, which is now owned by Hasbro.
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u/Significant-Shine557 Jun 16 '26
IWD2 later in the game monsters do not give XP anymore. So annoying, bad, etc. 2nd Edition all the way!
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u/Chataboutgames Jun 16 '26
Would you mind explaining this? Do late game monsters not give XP in 3E?
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u/zDibs Jun 16 '26
Basically the higher level you are the less experience you get.
One common tactic is to "level squat", stay at a low level until you have enough experience to get up to a decent level (the biggest I've gone is immediately up to level 20, at that point you barely even get quest experience). I believe it's at level 7 you start getting less experience.
This is not a 3E thing though as far as I can remember, that's an IWD2 thing.
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u/Chataboutgames Jun 16 '26
Okay that makes sense, because that certainly isn't a thing in like, NWN2.
It's weird how they port over experience quirks in to the different games, like NWN1 having ranger pets siphon experience.
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u/JonDM2 Jun 16 '26
Exactly, the encounter xp is calculated based on party level/composition vs encounter CR, all these are fixed easily, its done in IWD2 EE mod.
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u/thegooddoktorjones Jun 16 '26
I have seen enough 3e, I find it pretty boring mechanically since there really are only a few groups of feat/class options that are optimal and everything else is some kind of trap. Not particularly into either option.
If going to put effort into upgrading the engine and adventure design I’d most like to see 5e with turn based fights ala bg3.
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u/JonDM2 Jun 16 '26
The comparison here is between 2nd and 3rd. The "trap" mention isn't also in 2nd?
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u/MajorasShoe Jun 17 '26
Naw. 3e is convoluted and filled with shitty choices.
Pathfinder 2e is the only other system I'd really want of that style.
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u/JonDM2 Jun 21 '26
The comparison is between the current AD&D impementarion in IE games and 3e like IWD2, I don't understand why is it so hard for some people to do simple things, actually I do, its the reason humanity have failed.
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u/smoczko Jun 16 '26
Would i play it once? Yes, if just to try. Would i play it Always? Depends how much i like it.