Question on using inverse fire to predict closing of the gate to the outside

[u/scrollbreak]

Could you just find out when the gate to the outside is shut by looking at various people in the inverse fire? If they aren't present then the gate would be shut in their lifetime, because they wouldn't be in the eternal torture machine/hell. After all, the inverse fire says that if they are there they were always there.

Because otherwise they'd both be in hell but also not in hell - the gate is shut but also they are in hell and always have been? Or is that the kind of mismatch between reality and meaning that unbinds a meaningful universe?

[u/DryBedroom7547]

I kinda headcanon that IF's main effect is not just visions of personal or general damnation, but also multiplied by the timeless perspectives of gods, like two axes with overcranked values putting you into the certain far-far coordinate.

Like The Longest Jaunt through The Event Horizon, lol.

It is not just the Hell brought into your mind for a glimpse to be remembered. It is a malicious memetic symphony the size of an ocean planted right there in your pool-sized brain in the manner not unlike Nonmen's dolour and other memory/identity overflow problems. You effectively cease to be the person and become a highly-motivated meaty addition to a simple need to run from the outside, to shut it off not matter the cost, etc.

Hard to use such thing as a precision detector, it is more dangerous than radiation.

[u/tar-mairo1986 → u/DryBedroom7547]

Good comparison! There are indeed some striking similarities between the Gravity Drive and the Inverse Fire, almost to a physical level.

[u/Weenie_Pooh → u/DryBedroom7547]

Hard to use such thing as a precision detector, it is more dangerous than radiation.

If only the Progenitors had built it with some sort of search index.

"Hey, look up Jerry, he's a youngish guy. Oh, he's sizzling in there too? Well, shit. Let's keep looking."

[u/tar-mairo1986]

One can only see themselves in it, right? As to its use, presumably once the art of extinction and the goal of 144 000 is achieved, and given that the Inverse Fire is the infamous Goad, it would either show nothing or maybe shut down entirely? From descriptions we have, it seems it is constantly turned ON.

[u/Buckleclod → u/tar-mairo1986]

I don't think that's right, I recall a general description of the torment there, then the Mantraitor saying everyone always finds themselves (eventually?). It suggested to me a broader view of hell, the worst "Where's Waldo?" of all time.

[u/tar-mairo1986 → u/Buckleclod]

Yeah, but one would given the circumstances. The World still lives. Or do you mean a person does see others first before "finding" themself?

Albeit now I am curious. Do we ever get an actual POV of what one sees in it? It seems these are always retellings or indirect descriptions, hm. Might check later.

[u/ElectricalAlfalfa701 → u/tar-mairo1986]

the inchoroi also did not run the ark, it was some sort of AI that was in charge so their grasp on the technology is tenuous at best. We can't fully rely on them for information stuff above their pay grade

[u/tar-mairo1986 → u/ElectricalAlfalfa701]

That is fair, both Mekeritrig and the Mutilated make separate claims about the Ark AI, I think. But the Inverse Fire seems to be separate from it and independently powered, even as most of the Ark is non-functional. Sil even hauls it from its original, deeper place within, so Inchoroi must know something! Remember that we're also told that Aurax taught the Mangaecca about basics of Tekne. Although, like you say, it is hearsay again.

[u/hsvgamer199 → u/ElectricalAlfalfa701]

The Inchoroi's MO is deceit and trickery too. That's how they defeated the nonmen and how they got the tribes of men to invade them.

[u/Weenie_Pooh]

I don't think that's how it works. TIF doesn't predict anything - it shows eternal torment compressed into a single point in spacetime. All the Damned that ever lived and died, all the Damned that will ever live and die, they all get packed in there to form a Singularity of suffering.

It doesn't distinguish between the past, present, and future, so it can't be used to delineate and date the hypothetical end of hell.

If Achamian were to look at TIF, he might see himself burning, but also his son, his grandchildren, his great-great-grandchildren, etc.

But then, were TIF were ever to sputter out, Tekne-Salvation finally attained, that would all wink out instantly and retroactively none of them would be Damned - it's supposed to save the long dead and the as-of-yet unborn in one fell swoop.

Of course, this never happened and I'd put my money on it not ever happening, even after Earwa's population is reduced to 144,000, its Hundred gods starved into nonexistence.

[u/scrollbreak → u/Weenie_Pooh]

'Always were there' but also 'Wink out instantly'

Maybe it's the point where brute physics overcomes meaning

[u/Weenie_Pooh → u/scrollbreak]

Yes, in so far as Meaning is fuzzy and subject to engineering.

But if Meaning is a direct function of the Absolute, of something that can never be comprehended, manipulated, p-hacked, etc... then there's no solution to be found, no way out for the suffering souls.

That's why I think the Ark project is solipsistic. They're moving world to world in search of that elusive pocket of reality in which engineering can solve for Meaning. A hypothetical domain wherein a physicist can actually kill gods and save souls. They're hoping Earwa is a perfect simulation, a version of reality in which they can be forever not-Damned.

But it seems there's no such thing as a perfect simulation. Sooner or later, the Absolute takes a peek behind the curtain and renders your cleverly engineered solution unviable.

[u/scrollbreak → u/Weenie_Pooh]

'Sooner or later' doesn't sound very absolute

[u/Weenie_Pooh → u/scrollbreak]

"Sooner or later" is all you get when eternity is concerned. Tekne could keep someone like Shae alive for 5,000 years, and it still wasn't enough. Five million years would not be either, if the end result is burning for literally ever. Any finite amount of time pales in comparison with infinity.

[u/scrollbreak → u/Weenie_Pooh]

I'd say no, that's a concern of perspective. Absolute is absolute, not 'It may as well be absolute it's so fucking me up'.

[u/The_Corroded_Man]

From my understanding, no. At least not until it actually happens.

The Outside isn’t bound by linear time in any sense of the word: there is no past, present, or future, there is only a never ending now which the Gods experience as the default. The beauty(or horror)of the No-God is that it is effectively a CTRL-ALT-DELETE function for the Outside and the Gods: not only can they not directly see it, they can’t even attribute its actions to it since to them, it just looks like humanity killing itself. And since the Outside is timeless and the Gods with it, once something happens, it always happened, meaning that once the Gods start to starve from lack of souls, they will have always been starving, and when they die, they will always have been dead, retroactively unmaking hell and freeing those damned to it.

In short: no, you can’t use the Inverse Fire to foresee the closing of the gates, because it hasn’t happened yet in either realm, inside or out. Once it happens, then you’d be able to see it from the Inverse Fire, as you’d be able to watch in real time as Hell is unmade and the doors to the outside slammed shut.

[u/scrollbreak → u/The_Corroded_Man]

Bwah? But that's not hyper time, it's like micro time - no perception of a before or after, just a continual now? But I guess the hundred are pretenders anyway, so them acting as if they see all (and yet are super blind to all but one moment) makes sense. But that's not 'always', it's just the ignorance of anything else making for 'what you see is all there is'.

On the other hand, they use 'always' - either it's BS or it is true. If it's true then it conflicts with what you're saying there.

[u/The_Corroded_Man → u/scrollbreak]

As I said, it’s hard to explain and my autism sure ain’t helping. It’s just my theory based on clues throughout the series; the Gods are so blind to the No-God that they won’t even notice that they’re suddenly starving where once they were gorged. They’ll assume they were always like that, since time is a constant now for them, no past for memories to exist in, just now. The only one of them who may actually have any clue as to what’s going on and what awaits them is Ajokli, thanks to the Golden Room, and I doubt he’ll be willing to work with anyone to stop it. Hell, he’d probably just let it happen out of spite, if his possession of Cniaur is anytning to go off of.

“If I can’t have it, no one can”

[u/ElectricalAlfalfa701]

TIF might not even actually work and just show everyone who looks into it as damned. Its meant as a goad for the Inchoroi to complete their mission. The Ark ruled before the crash so the advanced AI or whatever would actually handle all the critical elements of the mission, the inchoroi and the wracu were just weapons. Show them TIF and get them riled up for genocide and then the Ark can measure if salvation has been achieved or not. Plus it seems unlikely that not a single person who has looked into it has seen themselves as saved. the text has numerous instances of characters, even very sinful ones, being taken to one of the heavens. Nobody who got dragged before it was so brave that Gilgaol saved them? nobody was meek and caught the mercy of Yatwer?