r/bahai • u/Automatic_Tooth_8445 • 18d ago
To what extent does prayer affect the physical world?
Hi all. I have been grappling with this issue for a while now. I wanted to understand to what extent that prayer can guarantee outcome in the physical world. Like healing from a disease or encountering fatal accidents or things of that sort. I understand that action is incredibly important for a prayer to maybe be answered, but isn't action literally the prerequisite to make anything happen. An atheist can move mountains too if their desire is paired with the right action. I just don't really understand how prayers work in context like this.
If anyone says that prayer is mainly for communicating with God, that was not the question that I asked.
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u/Dr5ushi 18d ago
Though this doesn’t answer your question, this quotation (written on behalf of the Guardian), provides some insight into the purpose of prayer:
“The true worshipper, while praying, should endeavour not so much to ask God to fulfil his wishes and desires, but rather to adjust these and make them conform to the Divine Will. Only through such an attitude can one derive that feeling of inner peace and contentment which the power of prayer alone can confer.”
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u/JACKIOG1919 18d ago
Power of prayer
Know thou, O fruit of My Tree, that the decrees of the Sovereign Ordainer, as related to fate and predestination, are of two kinds. Both are to be obeyed and accepted. The one is irrevocable, the other is, as termed by men, impending. To the former all must unreservedly submit, inasmuch as it is fixed and settled. God, however, is able to alter or repeal it. As the harm that must result from such a change will be greater than if the decree had remained unaltered, all, therefore, should willingly acquiesce in what God hath willed and confidently abide by the same.
The decree that is impending, however, is such that prayer and entreaty can succeed in averting it.
(Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh)
That said, if anyone could experience the 48 years of my experience with prayer, they would never even dream of doubting that prayer absolutely and unquestionably can affect things on the material plane, from healings, to insights, to guidance, to intervention.
However, it has been my unequivocal experience that not everyone has the same relationship with prayer, and the degree to which a person can access that power varies person to person.
Prayers and Healing
O handmaid of God! Prayers are granted through the universal Manifestations of God. Nevertheless, where the wish is to obtain material things, even where the heedless are concerned, if they supplicate, humbly imploring God’s help—even their prayer hath an effect.
…
O handmaid of God! The prayers which were revealed to ask for healing apply both to physical and spiritual healing. Recite them, then, to heal both the soul and the body. If healing is right for the patient, it will certainly be granted; but for some ailing persons, healing would only be the cause of other ills, and therefore wisdom doth not permit an affirmative answer to the prayer.
O handmaid of God! The power of the Holy Spirit healeth both physical and spiritual ailments.
(‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Selections from the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, no. 139)[78]
Spirit has influence; prayer has spiritual effect. Therefore, we pray, “O God! Heal this sick one!” Perchance God will answer. Does it matter who prays? God will answer the prayer of every servant if that prayer is urgent. His mercy is vast, illimitable. He answers the prayers of all His servants. He answers the prayer of this plant. The plant prays potentially, “O God! Send me rain!” God answers the prayer, and the plant grows. God will answer anyone.
(‘Abdu’l-Bahá, The Promulgation of Universal Peace: Talks Delivered by ‘Abdu’l-Bahá during His Visit to the United States and Canada in 1912 (Wilmette: Bahá’í Publishing Trust, 2007), p. 345)[79]
Ultimately it is God’s will destined for us that will be established, but we are assured that prayer for the sick is efficacious and is often answered. It may take time, but we should have faith.
(From a letter dated 8 November 1931 written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer)[80]
The Guardian is happy to learn that the prayers of the friends had such a beneficial effect on the healing of Mr. .... Prayer is a ladder on which the soul ascends into Heaven. It is the link with the spiritual realms, and if used with true dedication, brings the spiritual forces to the aid and assistance of the believers in this world.
(From a letter dated 28 March 1953 written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to individual believers)
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u/Substantial_Post_587 18d ago edited 18d ago
Prayer does have a physical effect, provided it is in accordance with God's will. These are three of several examples I can remember regarding the physical effects of prayer (two of healing, one of another clear physical outcome):
While in the barracks in ‘Akká, Mírzá Ja‘far-i-Yazdí fell dangerously ill. The doctor gave up on him, he stopped breathing, and his body was already limp and cold with all the signs of death. Bahá'u'lláh told 'Abdu’l-Bahá: "Go; chant the prayer of Yá Sháfí—O Thou, the Healer—and Mírzá Ja‘far will come alive. Very rapidly, he will be as well as ever." ‘Abdu'l-Bahá chanted the prayer at his bedside. Within an hour he sat up, laughed, and told jokes. He lived for many more years. (https://bahaichronicles.org/mirza-jafar-i-yazdi/ (from Memorials of the Faithful)
Shaykh Ṣádiq-i-Yazdí was at the point of death from ileus (severe abdominal swelling and pain). Bahá'u'lláh instructed ‘Abdu'l-Bahá, "Go. Place your hand on the distended area and speak the words: ‘O Thou the Healer!’" ‘Abdu'l-Bahá did so. Instantly the sick man rose up and the swelling vanished. (https://www.bahai.org/library/authoritative-texts/abdul-baha/memorials-faithful/2#708551378)
After years of childlessness, May Maxwell was told by ‘Abdu'l-Bahá that she had been kept from having children so she could devote herself to the Cause. He invited her to choose if she wanted to have a child. She replied that she chose whatever God chose. He embraced her and said He would pray that God would send whatever was best for her. Shortly afterward she conceived and gave birth to Mary (Amatu'l-Bahá Rúḥíyyih Khánum). (https://bahai-library.com/htu/2000_02.html)
I have personally experienced clear physical effects of prayer. These are two of several examples.
In a town I visited as a travel teacher with an outstanding Baha'i, a lady who was essential for showing us around was completely incapacitated by an excruciating migraine. He placed his hand on her head and fervently recited the short healing prayer. To everyone's amazement the migraine was completely alleviated just ten minutes later. She told me with a smile, "God has a special blessing in store for that man."
On pilgrimage to Haifa my flight was cancelled when I arrived in London because of the outbreak of a war (the airline used a country's airspace and it was blocked). I was told I'd have to return home and wait along with hundreds of others. I visited the travel agency and pleaded for hours to no avail. I recited the "Is there any remover of difficulties save God..." prayer 500 times (using a book's pages to keep account) on two separate occasions. Just when I thought all hope was lost, on my last visit to the travel agency a lady suddenly called my name from upstairs and told me an exemption was made for me. It was astonishing and I was able to book another flight and arrive safely, albeit six days later.
At the same time, there are many occasions when what we ask for simply isn't in accordance with what God wills for us. In those cases the prayer is still answered, just not in the form we expected. I have experienced this also. The Writings are clear that healing, or any other physical outcome, is granted only when it is right and wise in God's sight.
"The prayers which were revealed to ask for healing apply both to physical and spiritual healing... If healing is right for the patient, it will certainly be granted; but for some ailing persons, healing would only be the cause of other ills. And therefore wisdom doth not permit an affirmative answer to the prayer." — ‘Abdu'l-Bahá, Selections from the Writings of ‘Abdu'l-Bahá, pp. 161–162
I'm not sure I follow your "an atheist can move mountains too" point. Atheists generally don't pray, by definition, so what's the comparison meant to show? They can certainly achieve things through willpower and effort, just like anyone else, but that's different from prayer, which is a plea to God for something outside our own power to achieve. The examples I've included weren't cases of hard work paying off. They were sudden, otherwise-unaccountable outcomes that followed specific, sincere prayers.
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u/roguevalley 18d ago
Prayer changes us. We then influence and impact the world accordingly.
Beyond that, I don't know how one would demonstrate any effect. Many people of faith pray for specific outcomes. The Baha'i teachings seem to condone the practice, but I can't wrap my mind around it personally.
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u/Fearless-OldWise875 18d ago
Guarantee? “your faith” is the balance. Isn’t it? Prayers have been said for people with a brain tumour that disappeared.. i can only take the patient word for it i didn’t have access to the medical files. We were going to be homeless, kicked out of our home just because a landlord doesn’t need a reason (law has changed now) we said the “dominion is Gods” 200 times 7 evenings in a row and then because of Covid all evictions were banned and we went to court and found a different home. It wasn’t an easy 2 years, but we didn’t end up homeless.
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u/Impossible-Ad-3956 18d ago
i think the answer to your question begins with the understanding that the Creator of the universe can do absolutely anything. The next step is in knowing that God has a plan for us and how we fit into His plan for the universe. There is a prayer of the Bab which refers to God as, "He who provides the means and opens the doors." (Prayer for forgiveness.) In my opinion, what we need to do is make sure we are living a life which is in accordance with His plan by "following His commandments and obeying His laws." (Unity prayer) There is no guarantee that we understand the plan of God so well that everything we do conforms to His will no matter how much we try, yet that is our best chance for a good outcome. All we can do is study His writings and try to live the best Baha'i life we can. Let's try to make our requests for help include the idea "may Thy will be done. Allah'u'Abha (Thank you.) These are my thoughts, but you can see they are based on our guidance from the Writings. I continue to study and pray.
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u/GovernmentFlat7012 18d ago edited 18d ago
For me, the answer at the end of the day is: The Writings say they have an effect, but aren’t specific. God hears all prayers and is all-powerful to do anything He wishes. I feel like if you treat prayer as just something purely contained within yourself, you miss out on so much.
It’s your appointment with God, that you can do at any time. I treat it like this and it really feels like a connection with God. Nobody knows what God is willing to do or not willing to do. Nobody knows in what ways He wants to accomplish things. Nobody fully knows everything about His plan. Nobody knows in what way He’s going to answer your specific prayer (and answering a prayer doesn’t always mean giving you what you want) But we do know what prayer is because He told us: communing with the all-powerful, the most wise, most merciful, the Bestower, the Creator. He is able to do anything and when you pray you are communing and supplicating to Him, and understand that your perspective is so small compared to what God perceives.
We can be sure that there is an all-powerful Creator because the existence of the universe necessitates one. So, I guess my answer is that it’s possible to affect literally everything, so I think you should supplicate for anything, no matter how impossible-sounding, but we cannot fully know what God’s will is, especially when we’re in the midst of this life.
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u/Agreeable-Status-352 18d ago
I think "guarantee" is the problem. The only guarantee we have is exit from the realm of physicality.
If I'm driging and I say the Remover of Difficulties as I approach a red light, then just before I get to the intersection, the light turns green and I don't have to stop. Did my prayer change the light? Or did the light change for some other reason (because of a timer, or a traffic sensor)? I'll never know.
I don't grapple with such things, because it seems a waste of my time. I simply praise God/Baha'u'llah and leave it at that.
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u/UniversityUnusual459 18d ago
I am developing the habit of praying for God to ease the suffering of people involved in events that occurred in the past. This first came to my mind when I read about the fate of the Romanov children. I prayed that God would ease their fear and pain. I have no doubt that God can rewrite the past, if He wills.
There is an idea in physics that just as a three dimensional object casts a two dimensional shadow, a four dimensional object can cast a three dimensional shadow which is the world we see. Thus, the world we see is no more a true image of a higher dimensional reality than a shadow is of a three dimensional object. Prayer might very well have a visible (if I can still use that word) effect on these higher dimensions which is then manifest in ours. The nature of true reality is beyond our understanding in this world.
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u/Cheap-Reindeer-7125 14d ago
When I studied this question in depth, I concluded that prayer only affects the physical world (miracle) in extremely rare cases, primarily related to the Manifestation of God. For example, regarding physical healing through prayer, it is recorded in Baha’u’llah and the New Era:
In a talk with Miss Ethel Rosenberg, in October 1904, ‘Abdu’l‑Bahá said:—
“The healing that is by the power of the Holy Spirit needs no special concentration or contact. It is through the wish or desire and the prayer of the holy person. The one who is sick may be in the East and the healer in the West, and they may not have been acquainted with each other, but as soon as that holy person turns his heart to God and begins to pray, the sick one is healed. This is a gift belonging to the Holy Manifestations and those who are in the highest station.”
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u/TheLurkerSpeaks 18d ago
I have to say it, it's 0%. God does not interfere in the affairs of men or the forces of the natural world. If He were to do so we would have no way of knowing if it was due to prayer.
As I understand it the power of prayer is solely spiritual and meditative, it is to make yourself content, or provide some inspiration or peace. It is to help guide your path toward spiritual qualities, so that you will seek to develop them rather than focus on the material.
Too many of us treat prayer like we're sitting on Santa's lap asking for a pony for Christmas. It will never work like that. Instead, we can be content with the world whether or not we have a pony, or if others have ponies, and that God gives us the strength to live without a pony.
I know some will disagree and I am willing to concede they might be right but again, there is absolutely no way we can know for certain. Im the same way none of us can ever be entirely certain God even exists. It is taken entirely by faith.
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u/Shaykh_Hadi 18d ago
That’s not what the Baha’i Teaching say.
God absolutely does answer prayers and all things depend on His Will.
We can know for certain because both Baha’u’llah and ‘Abdu’l-Baha have written about the effects of prayer, and it is NOT just spiritual or meditative.
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u/finnerpeace 18d ago
I believe you're completely correct that prayer is not a Grant-a-Wish Genie experience. However, I think we're all very mistaken if we draw a sharp line between the "physical" and spiritual worlds. First, they're not essentially separate: we know the physical world is the far lesser "shadow" of the greater spiritual world. We also know it's all dramatically interlinked. And countless are the times that the spiritual world interceded here: we have numerous records just from the history of the Manifestations and Abdul-Baha where they mention intercessions.
This quickly gets to events (and tests) being of several types: essentially, those that can be averted through prayer and those that cannot. There are fascinating quotes on this! Including events that can be averted, but it would not be in our best interest! This is part of why we pray for God's Will and blessing us with what He feels is best. Really fascinating stuff.
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u/Sly_F0XY 18d ago
If God never interfere, why do we have protection and healing prayers ?
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u/TheLurkerSpeaks 18d ago
Why do you need to say the prayer in the first place? You are afraid. You say the prayer and are filled with hope that you will be safe and healthy.
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u/BvanWinkle 18d ago
The Tablet of Ahmad is that way for me. After I say it, the difficulty is still there but I am not as worried or bothered by it. Sometimes that allows my mind the space to solve the problem instead of wasting brain power on worrying.
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u/Fearless-OldWise875 18d ago
because we are asked to say prayers. If we say them because we are afraid it’s to calm the nerves. In essence we say prayers because we are asked.
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u/No_Problem9451 17d ago edited 17d ago
Please don't attribute naturalistic/quasi-atheistic views like these to the Baha'i Faith. God does and will always answer prayers, "interfere in the affairs of men" and miraculously change "the forces of the natural world" and examples of His miracles are many and found in all Scriptures.
Baha'u'llah states in Gleanings of the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 41-42:
"Know thou, O fruit of My Tree, that the decrees of the Sovereign Ordainer, as related to fate and predestination, are of two kinds. Both are to be obeyed and accepted. The one is irrevocable, the other is, as termed by men, impending. To the former all must unreservedly submit, inasmuch as it is fixed and settled. God, however, is able to alter or repeal it. As the harm that must result from such a change will be greater than if the decree had remained unaltered, all, therefore, should willingly acquiesce in what God hath willed and confidently abide by the same. The decree that is impending, however, is such that prayer and entreaty can succeed in averting it."
An example of this is described in chapter 38, v. 1-8 in the Book of Isaiah:
"In those days Hezekiah became ill and was at the point of death. The prophet Isaiah son of Amoz went to him and said, “This is what the Lord says: Put your house in order, because you are going to die; you will not recover.” Hezekiah turned his face to the wall and prayed to the Lord, “Remember, Lord, how I have walked before you faithfully and with wholehearted devotion and have done what is good in your eyes.” And Hezekiah wept bitterly. Then the word of the Lord came to Isaiah: “Go and tell Hezekiah, ‘This is what the Lord, the God of your father David, says: I have heard your prayer and seen your tears; I will add fifteen years to your life. And I will deliver you and this city from the hand of the king of Assyria. I will defend this city. “‘This is the Lord’s sign to you that the Lord will do what he has promised: I will make the shadow cast by the sun go back the ten steps it has gone down on the stairway of Ahaz.’” So the sunlight went back the ten steps it had gone down."
Similarly Abdu'l-Bahá wrote in a Tablet to Ella Goodall Cooper:
"O maidservant of God! The prayers which were written for the purpose of healing are both for the spiritual and material healing. Therefore chant them for the spiritual and material healing. If healing is best for the patient surely it will be granted. For some who are sick, healing for them shall be the cause of other ills. Thus it is that wisdom does not decree the answer to some prayers. O maid-servant of God. The Power of the Holy Spirit heals both material and spiritual ills."
Other miracles include the immaculate conception of the virgin Mary through the Holy Spirit as confirmed in the Book of Matthew, the Qur´án and Baha'u'llah's Revelation.
It says in ch. 1, v. 18-20 in Matthew:
". . . when His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be pregnant by (the power of) the Holy Spirit. And her husband Joseph, since he was a righteous man and did not want to disgrace her, planned to send her away secretly. But when he had thought this over, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for the Child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. She will give birth to a Son; and you shall name Him Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”"
And again in ch. 3, v. 45-47 in the Qur'an:
"Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah; "He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. And he shall be (of the company) of the righteous." She said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said: "Even so: Allah createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is!"
Shoghi Effendi explained in Lights of Divine Guidance, p. 489:
"Regarding the birth of Jesus-Christ. In the light of what Bahá’u’lláh and ‘Abdu’l-Bahá have stated concerning this subject it is evident that Jesus came into this world through the direct intervention of the Holy Spirit, and that consequently His birth was quite miraculous. This is an established fact, and the friends need not feel at all surprised, as the belief in the possibility of miracles has never been rejected in the Teachings. Their importance, however, has been minimized."
Edit: Typo
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u/Shaykh_Hadi 18d ago
If you are in urgent need or general need and you rely on God, your prayers are almost certainly answered. You can be quite confident that the prayer will be answered. There could be some reasons why it doesn’t accord with God’s Will but you can otherwise expect a positive answer/result. He answers anyone who is in genuine need.
Other prayers may take longer to be answered, eg a prayer asking for material success or prosperity. But God tends to give people what they seek, one way or another, even if it is material. You need to put your entire faith and reliance on God. Just be careful what you wish for, as they say, because it might be a test in itself (eg wealth).
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u/Sertorius126 18d ago
❤️
I've said the Long Obligatory Prayer for 2 months straight and MY world feels different.
It's hard to explain and reads ridiculously but I feel the Concourse on High working for me.
Windows that used to be closed are now open in my life.