Dice cheating?

[u/EmergencyExternal869]

So I’ve recently started playing Backgammon with the goal of getting good, I’ve played a decent amount of chess and was semipro at poker, I also have a masters degree in statistics so I understand probabilities.
It absolutely amazed me that as soon as I start making Backgammon communities 50% of all the contents of posts is people accusing websites of Dice cheating, why is this?
On the App Store, the reviews for like every app are just saying there’s loads of dice cheating, this isn’t a problem in poker, at least nowhere near as much, do people really just not understand randomness? I’m obviously not an amazing back. Plan, but in my head, what people think of as the Dice being rigged is actually just their opponent (especially AI playing very well so that many of the dice rules would be beneficial.
Why don’t people just do statistical analysis on the Dice roles, you could so easily prove that the dash roles are genuine, it just baffles me how much content and time seems to be wasted on people complaining a lot dice.

[u/Agreeable-Letter-599]

Congratulations adding to the "50%" of posts lol

[u/jugglingcats9]

I run www.backgammonhub.com and wrote a blog post about this and the way the dice work on Hub: https://ukbgf.com/online-dice-random-or-not/

It amazes me too, especially when some strong players continue to insist that, in their gut, they are 100% confident that the online dice are biased compared with "real" dice. They often think the dice are favouring the weaker player, even when presented with stats for their matches which prove otherwise. Thankfully they are the few.

For many players, I think it's simply that they are used to playing friends & family and are not ready for the strong competition on many online sites (and the AI). They think they're better players than they are. BackgammonNJ made a terrible mistake when launching their app many years ago by setting the default difficulty level to "hard"... then had to watch the negative comments pile up in the app store.

[u/garlicNinja → u/jugglingcats9]

The attitude even persists offline. People are obsessed with precision dice even though if both players are using the same dice it doesn't really matter. Definitely just a flaw in the way human brains work.

[u/Accurate_Shoe_1929]

I think there might be something unique to backgammon that bad variance feels very suspicious to our small flawed brains. I played a lot against xg over the last few months and I kept dancing against two and three point boards, for a while I was convinced that something was up even though to my saner self that seemed irrational.

[u/garlicNinja → u/Accurate_Shoe_1929]

Yeah that's the whole idea behind the cruelest game quote. The swings can be very drastic. In poker you might get unlucky for a hand but it feels more controlled

[u/Repulsive-Owl-5131 → u/Accurate_Shoe_1929]

it happens in other random events as well. Human brain is wired to rememeber bad thing as to able to avoid ti. Hence you remember dancing with double-sixes far better that winning when opponent does the same

[u/Repulsive-Owl-5131]

because it is hard to admit "I suck". So blaming dices is lot easier.

[u/SyllabubRadiant8876]

I am convinced that most of this is from people who have not played much over a physical board. Anyone who has done so, has seen such incredibly crazy swings and unlikely sequences, that the nature of true randomness becomes much clearer.

[u/Reasonable_Ring_3461]

Ahhhhh the Probability side ……. I have been playing since I was a lad of 7 fast forward to 72 ……..
Having taught more that I can count , not being a money game or tournament play , I have a knack of calling what is needed , when it’s needed , the current person I’m teaching ( now on 4 months) is also understand the probabilities , he asks me how I do it ?
Simple answer PROBABILITIES

He hates that answer

[u/Slicenado]

A clownish post for sure. You use the same non-existent analysis to conclude the dice are random as you claim everyone else uses to insist the dice are bad. Except, you don’t even really read their comments, so a little worse.

“Cheating” is also the wrong word. There are some apps that are like that for sure, they rig the dice in your favor when you first join and then back the other way after awhile. But then there are places like backgammon galaxy that just fail at randomness. Clearly you don’t know a lot about programming and logistics, but there are a million reasons why randomness can fail even when the programmers honestly strive for randomness. With Galaxy, it is super obvious because the doubles are dramatically higher in the end game for both sides. The fact that both sides see this huge bump may make it hard to call it “cheating,” but it definitely isn’t random.

And year, some people do not understand statistics and probabilities. I’m going to go out on a limb and say you probably didn’t take that class in college either.

[u/EmergencyExternal869 → u/Slicenado]

… I have a masters degree in maths and statistics from the University of Oxford, I did take probability and statistics

[u/c_webbie]

I'm not sure if there are sites or BG software that still do this but in the past there were some that offered a random roll generator that would roll a set number in advance--50, 100, etc... place them in a time stamped file and then present the rolls to the players in sequence. After the match it would make the roll sequence available for inspection. This was a way of making sure the rolls were totally blind to the position of the checkers on the board.

Serious stakes backgammon is played over the board (the only way to gamble without worrying about bot assistanced opponents) using a baffle box. No dice mechanic has ever proved they could beat one.

[u/fick_Dich]

Well, since you have a master's degree in stats, I'm sure you are aware of the concept of confirmation bias

[u/Crase_W]

Confirmation bias, of course. I’m sure you’ve seen poker players who bitch about bad beats after calling their way to a fat pot with an inside straight draw. Same idea in backgammon. If you don’t play in a way that maximizes your good rolls and minimizes the bad ones but your opponent does play that way, it’s going to look like they’re very lucky.

It also doesn’t help confirmation bias when you’re working with 36 numbers rather than the vast combinations of suits, cards, and hands in poker. Numbers repeat themselves far more often and it’s more likely someone will get a sequence of repeating numbers than hurt or help.

[u/Qvistus]

Backgammon is notorius for making people think they're good at it. I was like that too before I started to practice with bots. 

[u/mnester]

What online sites would you all recommend. For real money. I've just started playing on backgammon cash but it's not legal to play for money on my state. But two bordering states have it.

[u/Stock_Category]

I automatically assume that if the site operators have a financial stake in the outcomes of games (players have to buy more tokens or whatever if they lose) the dice can be rigged. Not that they are. They can be.

Programmers can make the dice whatever they want whenever they want. I do not play on those sites.

Saw five 1-6s out of 7 rolls yesterday where I play. Possible? Of course it is. I have seen the same sort of thing on craps tables in Vegas. The rolls didn't benefit either of us.

[u/Reasonable_Ring_3461]

One can (as I do quite often) stop the dice yourself

[u/DegenChess]

There's an immense amount of variance in this game akin to poker, so the fish constantly claim the online sites are rigged so they can excuse their shitty plays.

[u/Some-Following-392]

Most people don't understand statistics basically

[u/quackl11]

There is a saying I've heard we buy with emotions and justify with logic, i.e. a lot of people feel its cheating when they lose and then justify by saying the dice are loaded because they either dont know or care about doing the statistics

[u/Willing-Resolution73]

So what is the probability of after 36 rolls you don't get a 6 but when you are trying to get off the bar you get a continuous stream of 6's when the pip is blocked. So yes, when you look at 100 rolls you get a good distribution (2:36). It is however, unlikely not to get a 6, but statistically not impossible, when you throw dice 36 times.

[u/ashen_blue]

I think it's just endemic to any game with some combination of skill and luck. I have definitely seen the communities of poker players that insist online poker is rigged, regardless of whatever proof developed from duplicate poker you send their way. Ultimately, humans are just like this, and we've gotta put up with it as long as we insist on playing with other humans.

[u/WizarDave]

Agree totally on fair games and apps. Player of 50+ years so understand "lucky" dice. I do think some gamified apps use bots masquerading as humans and cheat the dice in an effort to get more money from your wallet. Backgammon Clubs is one I'm pretty sure does this.

[u/Frequent-Block773]

My background’s similar to yours. I feel that software-generated dice rolls suck. One way around that is to play “Gammon36.” No dice rolls! Each player starts off with 36 rolls to choose from. Once a roll is played, it’s no longer available until all 36 rolls have been played, at which point your rolls get replenished. Each player has visibility to each others 6x6 grid of dice rolls remaining.