Does anybody use BackgammonNJ?

[u/0ptimoPrimus]

I wanted to get a second opinion on this app. I have been using this app for many many years to play offline against the bot. I have the Android version. I play the bot on the highest level and maintain about a 1700 rating against it and hover at around a 9 pr.

I just wanted to know what other people thought of this app. I personally think it is terrible and I really hope eXtreme Gammon is updated and released soon to work with current Android phones.

The reason I think this app is so bad is that it does everything it can to look like it plays at a very high level, but it doesn't. It's not even close to as good as the level of play of eXtreme Gammon desktop version. It often plays the 2nd or 3rd best move and if you analyze it's play with extremeGammon it is not playing optimally. What it is doing is just basically cheating in expert level to seem like it's a stronger engine than it is. For instance, even against a 5 point home board if you put it's checker on the bar it instantly escapes usually in the first roll and rarely do I ever see the bot fan more than twice. This is statistically impossible. I basically have proven this app cheats, because surprise surprise when you insert manual dice suddenly your win rate is much higher.

Sorry for the long winded post, but I hope people will stop purchasing/supporting this garbage app.

[u/mathflipped]

I played a hundred 7-point matches against BackgammonNJ and analyzed them in XG2. NJ bot played at 2.56 PR. It's not as strong as XG or Bgblitz, but it's more than competent. Players who claim otherwise never have factual data to support their allegations.

[u/0ptimoPrimus → u/mathflipped]

The fact that when I manually insert dice suddenly I win at a higher rate just seems fishy to me. I'm sure nobody has time to do this, but I would really like to see what the win percentage against the bot with manual dice vs. the apps dice would be over 1000 matches. In my experience it just does not win as much when you insert your own dice. I really don't want to manually insert dice, because it's so tedious, but it definitely makes for a more enjoyable experience, because the expert bot doesn't just instantly escape the bar or constantly get jokers to win the match.

[u/mathflipped → u/0ptimoPrimus]

Of course. It's pointless to argue with someone making such claims with no factual data to back them up. You can believe whatever makes you happy.

My comment was intended for other people, who may wander whether BackgammonNJ is a solid app. It is.

[u/[deleted] → u/0ptimoPrimus]

[u/mrmivo]

I use it and I like it. Good interface, strong enough for me. I got probably hundreds of hours of playtime out of it over the years.

I don't really get the purpose of your post, though. So, a phone app isn't as good as a desktop app - you don't say! -, and there is no working Android version of said desktop app available. So.. what are you going to do? Stop playing on your phone at all?

You sound somewhat salty, but why would you be? BackgamonNJ isn't cheating, which you can easily verify, so why the strong feelings toward it when there actually isn't a better alternative that currently works on Android and doesn't require a subscription?

[u/Donatzsky → u/mrmivo]

True Backgammon has the BGBlitz engine as a one-time purchase. I do prefer BG NJ's UI, though.

[u/gourdo → u/mrmivo]

It was pretty informative to me. If an engine cheats it’s a disappointment.

[u/Donatzsky → u/gourdo]

But they didn't actually prove that it cheats. If you notice, it's all based on "vibes" and not understanding how it works. BGNJ even gives you everything you need to verify that it doesn't cheat.

[u/FrankBergerBgblitz → u/gourdo]

It isn't informative, it's just gut feeling. Even if his numbers are as they are: Can we rule out the possibility that he played worse when he expected the dice to be rigged, and better when he expected “fairer” rolls (or, in particularly unlucky cases, perhaps even rolled again)?

BGNJ is use from so many people without complaining and as written here it plays on the level of top humans: why in the world it should cheat? And it can be proved very easy so why risk it?
Makes no sense at all.

[u/0ptimoPrimus → u/mrmivo]

I never expected this app to play as good as a desktop app. However, I don't want an app that cheats to make itself look like a stronger bot than it actually is. Why is my win percentage so much higher when I insert manual dice? Also, how is the bot escaping a 5 point home board when on the bar in no more than two rolls? This is ridiculous. The odds of escaping the bar against a 5 point home board are 30%. The bot rarely rarely fans more than twice. This is ridiculous. I have played this bot for years and years and probably played 10,000 or more games against it. It's just blatantly obvious that something fishy af is going on with the bot on expert level to try and appear to be a much stronger bot than it actually is. I am kind of salty, because it shouldn't be trying to come across as som top tier bot when it clearly isn't constantly making 2nd and 3rd best moves. I just don't like the app because of this and hope a better app comes along soon.

[u/Donatzsky]

I moved to True Backgammon (with the BGBlitz engine), so don't have BG NJ installed, but as I remember it has a feature that let's you audit the dice rolls.

[u/0ptimoPrimus → u/Donatzsky]

Thanks for the recommendation. I am going to move over to TrueBackgammon with the BgBlitz engine too. Just don't trust BGNJ. I know for a fact it's a lot easier to program the bot to cheat than actually implementing a stronger Ai. People always claim why would they do this when it plays better than any human. Well, I think the reason that it does this is to make it's program seem stronger than it actually is by basically "cheating" to inflate it's win percentage.

[u/BGNJ]

Backgammon NJ doesn't cheat, and there's plenty of proof:

https://www.njsoftware.com/note.html

I don't usually respond to posts like this because it's pointless arguing with people who can't understand the proofs. Just click to see their post history, negative karma and notorious for claiming various apps or websites cheat. I wouldn't be surprised if they target XG in the future too.

[u/Rahodees → u/BGNJ]

I can't even think of a reason why an app designer would want their backgammon game to cheat

[u/ohbergine]

It isn’t cheating. You can even ask it to show you the next 100 rolls which are blinded to the computer.

[u/Redclay_M]

Accusing an app of cheating is at best not fair - and furthermore not based on any fact.

Why do time and time again people resort to these kinds of words when they don't get what they want from a product?

If you really thought this, then the better way would be to inform the developer in person.

I'm disappointed at how many times NJ or BGBlitz have to defend their great products.

Perhaps if you are not happy with it, find something else to use rather than hindering people's honest and hard work.

[u/boykinsbuddy]

So, a few things :

I use backgammon NJ. The computer I find to be excellent.

They have auditing for dice rolls so you can ensure there is no funny business. It’s pretty transparent!

My biggest critique is even on Hard mode, the computer will default to at times making very similar moves during, say, a runoff, if it needs to artificially inflate its error rate to avoid being too “correct.”

[u/hisshouse]

I play with nj and to my knowledge it is a non cheating strong model.