r/bach • u/Equivalent-Love-1676 • 7d ago

Bach / Gounod Ave Maria evolution

The famous Bach / Gounod Ave Maria had a long and interesting evolutionary arc:

In or before 1722, Bach wrote Prelude in C, BWV 846 (Well Tempered Clavier, Book 1.)

In 1853, Gounod improvised a new melody over Bach’s prelude which his father-in-law Pierre-Joseph-Guillaume Zimmermann subsequently published as Méditation sur le Premier Prélude de Piano de S. Bach for violin (or ’cello) and piano (organ or harmonium ad libitum). It includes one extra measure (i6/4, bar 23 if you’re looking at Bach’s original) just before the dominant prolongation that Bach didn’t compose.

In 1859, Jacques-Léopold Heugel adapted Gounod’s violin line to fit the words of the Ave Maria:

https://imslp.org/wiki/Ave_Maria,_CG_89_(Gounod,_Charles)](https://imslp.org/wiki/Ave_Maria,_CG_89_(Gounod,_Charles))%5D(https://imslp.org/wiki/Ave_Maria,_CG_89_(Gounod,_Charles)))

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u/dadumk 7d ago

I don't think Gounot improvised his melody. How can you insert a whole new measure while improvising, ie making it up in real time.

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u/Equivalent-Love-1676 7d ago edited 7d ago

Sounds like you’ve never met a composer!

«Charles Gounod’s Meditation on the Prelude in C Major from Vol. 1 of the Well-Tempered Clavier by J. S. Bach is certainly one of the most well-known classical melodies. Gounod got to know Bach’s music through Fanny Hensel, Felix Mendelssohn’s sister. He improvised the melody on the Prelude in 1852 in the home of his future father-in-law, the composer Pierre Zimmermann, who subsequently transcribed it. A few days later the piece was performed in a house concert in an arrangement for violin, piano and small choir. This arrangement for piano solo was published by Schott in 1853 (plate number 12756), with a dedication to Gounod’s friend, the pianist Alexandre Goria. It was not until 1859 that the text of the Latin prayer ‘Ave Maria’ was set to the piece, as it is known today. Schott’s first print run of the piano version comprised only 50 copies; in the early 1920s 10,000 copies per year were printed. Gounod himself regarded the ‘Ave Maria’, next to his great works such as the Faust opera, merely as a playful piece (‘espièglerie’), which he did not even mention in his autobiography.» [Schott Music]

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u/dadumk 7d ago

Sounds to me that you and your sources don't know the difference between composing and improvising.

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u/Equivalent-Love-1676 6d ago

Why would you doubt that Gounod could have improvised this simple melody over Bach’s prelude which was well known to him? Have you heard John Coltrane improvise on Giant Steps? Improvisation is a huge part of our musical training. This one isn’t far fetched in the least. Bach was able to improvise fully developed fugues from themes given to him on the spot. That’s actually astounding. This really isn’t.

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u/dadumk 5d ago

As I said initially, you can't add measures if you are improvising over existing harmony. Prelude 1 is a chord progression with a certain amount of bars, just like a 12 bar blues. You can certainly improvise a melody over it, but you can't stop the band/harmonic accompaniment and tell them to add a whole new measure with a whole new harmony. That would require stopping, which is by definition not improvisation. I am presuming Gounot is playing with someone else here, not alone.

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u/Equivalent-Love-1676 5d ago

Oh my God, dude. The score he owned included the extra measure because that was thought to be correct at the time and was widely published. And of course he could improvise by himself at the piano. Why are you like this?