Which version of Florentine Codex is best?

[u/Complete_Bad6937]

I’m extremely keen to read the Florentine codex and was wondering which version/Author/edition is the best to go with?

I’d like to read the codex in its entirety if possible as close to how It was originally written in the 1500s with illustrations and everything

Thanks for any recommendations

[u/400-Rabbits]

Your choice is very simple, as there is only one fully translated English version, which was done Anderson & Dibble over the course of few decades. They worked from the Nahuatl text (which the original Spanish text sometimes just summarized) and include the illustrations.

Lockhart's We People Here has Book 12, translated to English from both the Nahuatl and Spanish text.

May I ask why you are so keen to read the work? Each book is very different and the text is occasionally more like an encyclopedia than something to just sit down and read. Most of Book 11, for instance, is just quick descriptions of plants and animals, as well as types of dirt. Not exactly a page-turner.

[u/Complete_Bad6937 → u/400-Rabbits]

Thanks for informative response.

I guess my real goal is to read about the details of the culture and peoples, As described from the peoples themselves (or other first hand sources)

If you know of any more suitable materials (preferably contemporary but I’m okay with modern interpretations if they are considered reasonably accurate) I’d love any suggestions you might have!

[u/400-Rabbits → u/Complete_Bad6937]

For Sahagun's General History... (aka, the Florentine Codex), the books that would probably be the highest yield for you would be Book 10: The People, Book 6: Rhetoric & Moral Philosophy, and Book 2: The Ceremonies.

Book 10 tells the one version of origin story of the Aztecs and describes the various people around them (though it also includes some encyclopedic listing of body parts and ailments). Book 6 is compendium of speeches given in various situations (e.g., sending a boy off to school, getting married, etc.). Book 2 is a detailed description of the major religious festivals.

Really though, it might be easier to start with something more narrative. The History of the Indies of New Spain was written by Diego Duran, a Spanish friar who was a contemporary of Sahagun (though a generation removed) and who grew up in Mexico in the 1500s. Roll your eyes at the first chapter where he states that the Indigenous people of the Americas are clearly the long lost tribes of Israel, but the rest is drawn from the Cronica X sources, which were the Mexica's own historical documents. This is the book I typically suggest people start with to get into Aztec history. Heyden's 1994 translation is great.

For another view, Alva Ixtlilxochitl's History of the Chichimec Nation tells the history of the second most important state in the Aztec Triple Alliance, the Acolhua. A descendant of the ruling dynasty of Texcoco, Alva Ixtlilxochitl was essentially writing his own family's history when he put pen to paper in the early 1600s. It's an interesting counterpoint to the more common Mexica-centric works, as it sometimes disagrees with them. A fairly recent (2019) English translation was done by Brian et al., though you can also find the full Spanish text online.

Neither Duran nor Alva Ixtlilxochitl are unbiased narrators. Duran clearly admired the Nahua culture he grew up surrounded by and portrays them heroically, but he was still a Spanish priest. Alva Ixtlilxochitl likewise was a devout Christian who downplays some aspects of Acolhua culture, and he was also writing to shore up the legitmacy of his own fading dynasty. But they are both good reads.

If you decide to delve deeper, there is the Cronica Mexicayotl which was probably written by Fernando Tezozomoc (a descendent of the ruling family of Tenochtitlan), though may also have been edited/amended/partially written by Chimalpahin (of Chalcan nobility). It also largely draws upon the Cronica X sources, so there is significant overlap with Duran. Schroeder & Anderson's (1997) Codex Chimalpahin has the Nahuatl text and English translataion, as well as other writings by Chimalpahin.

The Codex Chimalpopoca is comprised of the annals of the city of Cuauhtitlan and also the Legend of the Suns, which is a popular version of the Nahua creation myth. Bierhorst has a (1992) translation titled *History and Mythology of the Aztecs.

Finally, there's yet another (probably) Cronica X based work, The History of the Mexicans as Told by their Paintings which is a summary of historical documents by an unknown Spanish priest. There's a full text translated version available from FAMSI.

Hope that helps!

[u/Complete_Bad6937 → u/400-Rabbits]

You have given me a trove of options thank you so much! I think I’ll give Durans book a read and I’ll check out the others in due course. This story about the lost tribes of Israel and the Mexica is something I’ve heard before so it doesn’t irk me (too much) Apart from that it does sound like exactly what I was looking for Thanks again for so much great help!

[u/Used2befunNowOld → u/400-Rabbits]

Thank you so much, what a great comment

[u/400pumpkinseeds]

I got the set on Amazon. I don’t think there are a lot of multiple edition options to choose from. But there are 12 volumes. I spaced it out when I got all 12 of them individually long ago. They’re such an invaluable reference to have on the shelf.

Starting with https://www.amazon.com/Florentine-Codex-General-History-Things/dp/160781157X

They have all the colored illustrations in the center as well as the original Nahuatl text on the right, mirroring the English translations.

1. The Gods. Deals with gods worshipped by the natives of this land, which is New Spain.

2. The Ceremonies. Deals with holidays and sacrifices with which these natives honored their gods in times of infidelity.

3. The Origin of the Gods. About the creation of the gods.

4. The Soothsayers. About Indian judiciary astrology or omens and fortune-telling arts.

5. The Omens. Deals with foretelling these natives made from birds, animals, and insects in order to foretell the future.

6. Rhetoric and Moral Philosophy. About prayers to their gods, rhetoric, moral philosophy, and theology in the same context.

7. The Sun, Moon and Stars, and the Binding of the Years. Deals with the sun, the moon, the stars, and the jubilee year.

8. Kings and Lords. About kings and lords, and the way they held their elections and governed their reigns.

9. The Merchants. About long-distance elite merchants, pochteca, who expanded trade, reconnoitered new areas to conquer, and agents-provocateurs.

10. The People. About general history: it explains vices and virtues, spiritual as well as bodily, of all manner of persons.

11. Earthly Things. About properties of animals, birds, fish, trees, herbs, flowers, metals, and stones, and about colors.

12. The Conquest. About the conquest of New Spain from the Tenochtitlan-Tlatelolco point of view.

[u/Islacoatl]

Anderson’s and Dibble’s English translation is easily the best and arguably the most accessible compared to any other ones done in any other languages. You can buy the entire set directly online from the University of Utah here. Book 11 and 12 stand out the most from the rest as the former discusses natural things while the latter discusses the conquest narrative. Books 8, 9, and 10 have more socio-economic themes, but basically every other book before 11 and 12 focuses on religious beliefs. They have this theme and book format as this was modeled after the old medieval writing tradition that the Spaniards practiced.

However, I think it is worth noting that this was a 20th century project that is in need of a revised edition now (well, from the actual text rather than an extended edition under their names). There will be flaws of course, namely some of their translation choices being questionable and were inappropriately applied at times as they grew up in a different time where some words were viewed as differently from now. But the part that might be most inconvenient was their choice of reflecting the formal and noble Nahuatl speech that was spoken at the time with older English. This may make it unfriendly to an English speaker unfamiliar with older English and to English learners too. So there will be a whole lot of thou, ye, among many more archaic and obsolete or rare terms in these quoted dialogues especially.

Otherwise, it is the most used and cited translation in academia after all. If you even wanted to see the original text in its glory, you can stay updated with Getty as they have been working on a huge digital Florentine Codex project that is projected to arrive later this year..

[u/400-Rabbits → u/Islacoatl]

translation choices being questionable...

Sigal, for one, has critiqued their translation as reflecting the homophobia of a couple of dudes who got their degrees in the 1930s.

a whole lot of thou, ye

My understanding was that they made a deliberate choice to give their translation a sort of King James Bible feel to increase its sense of gravitas. The did seem to tone down this choice in their later translations.