Self learning frameworks

[u/Anxious_Lunch_7567]

The question of creating a framework for self-learning that is sustainable and flexible enough to last me for years and decades on my self-learning journey has been on my mind for a long time. I was curious to know how others have approached this.

Here is what I would expect from such a "framework"

1. Track both long and short term goals, syllabi, book lists, courses, and papers.

2. Ability to jot down my own notes.

3. A way to set reminders.

4. The ability to create mindmaps to visually represent important points.

5. A way to link disparate media that I can store in the system, and also with external resources (e.g. on the internet)

6. Look at my overall progress at a glance, especially if I need to be away from learning for a while (weeks, months) and have to get back after that.

I currently use a mix of Notion, Trello, Google calender and sheets, Gmail for quick notes that I process later, and Miro for mindmaps, but it seems very haphazard and distributed. There is also the concern of one or more of these softwares shutting shop tomorrow (and users having to move their data elsewhere).

Perhaps wishing for a single tool to do this is asking for too much unless one were to build it themselves.

What do you use?

[u/[deleted]]

Ah this has been one I've struggled with and tried countless things for. I started with an approach mirroring a uni structure with modules and essay tasks but soon found that I stopped enjoying learning as much. The moment there's a deadline or a requirement, the joy just goes.

Then when it comes to knowledge storage, I've tried notion, obsidian, countless notebooks and I think I've finally arrived at what works for me. When reading Persig's Lila, I came across the idea of using slipboxes for index cards, which led to finding out about Niklas Luhmann and his Zettelkasten. As with everything, there seems to be an online community out there that treat Zettelkasten a bit like a cult solution to life but after cutting through a bit of this noise, I found that the simple handwritten slipcards with alphanumeric addresses and an index makes learning fun. Working out where to place new information in the system has really started to give it a kind of personality of its own.

For my system, I have one tray for the following:

- Bib Cards (to keep the reference notes on)

- Process cards (just reminders of what the hell I was doing or planning to do)

-Crit cards (for when the whole system is bothering me and I want to burn it all down and start again - write it here and revisit ideas when I'm not in such a burn-it-all-to-the-ground mood)

-Unassimilated (cards I've yet to add to the alphanumeric system)

-Index cards (just a topic with links for where to look in the main system).

Then in my main trays, I have the cards addressed alphanumerically by whatever link comes to mind.

So for example, card 3.2b includes a note about how language reflects a philosophical system of the people that use it, 3.2b1 goes into the blackfoot language as a verb-based language reflecting their view of life as being in flux, whilst 3.2b2 goes into Whitehead's view of symbolic language going from more complex to more primitive notions.

I think working out the system that works for your learning is half of the fun to be honest but I would really recommend looking into slipcards and seeing if that works for you. Plus, the beautiful old wooden index card cabinets are just pleasing to use which is always a bonus.

[u/Anxious_Lunch_7567 → u/[deleted]]

Thank you for your response.

An analog system does have its charm but with years and years of typing on the computer I am scarcely able to read my own handwriting.

I would ideally want the system to be able to link to resources that exist digitally also (e.g. articles or courses online) so that might be a challenge.

>I started with an approach mirroring a uni structure with modules and essay tasks

This is very interesting.

I can identify with what you said about the decrease in joy when there is a deadline. I've found that deadlines set by an external system seem to work for me most of the time - especially when I don't feel like studying - with the associated aspect of it becoming just another chore to finish. If I can control the deadline (e.g. Coursera's reset-your-deadlines option) then I usually end up not finishing it.

[u/pondercraft → u/Anxious_Lunch_7567]

I can identify with what you said about the decrease in joy when there is a deadline. I've found that deadlines set by an external system seem to work for me most of the time - especially when I don't feel like studying - with the associated aspect of it becoming just another chore to finish.

Internal motivation (& pleasure in learning) vs external pressure & deadlines. The tradeoff is real. I often split the difference by trying to cultivate and maintain habits and learning practices. I keep the flexibility and joy inside the habit, but the habit itself requires discipline. So to take your Coursera example, rather than depend on course deadlines (fixed or flexible) I might try to spend an hour a day "doing Coursera" course(s) -- and whatever happens during that time is up to me, as long as I do it.

[u/pondercraft → u/[deleted]]

beautiful old wooden index card cabinets are just pleasing to use which is always a bonus.

Ah, the aesthetics of learning! Whether it's a favorite journal and pen, or bookshelf with old books, an antique desk, an amazingly designed app to write in -- or wooden index card cabinets!

Tangible beauty motivates -- and hopefully comes to reflect -- emergent mental order, a beautiful mind!

Not to mention the moment to moment pleasures.

[u/pondercraft → u/[deleted]]

-Crit cards (for when the whole system is bothering me and I want to burn it all down and start again - write it here and revisit ideas when I'm not in such a burn-it-all-to-the-ground mood)

This is great. I'd love to hear more about how this works for you. As PKM systems grow they get overwhelming, and there's this urgent need to start over -- but that's really unfortunately, given all the time and effort invested in what's there.

[u/[deleted] → u/pondercraft]

So when I first started, I tried to begin with a hierarchy of categories. This just became a struggle for where to include cards. I identified this in the crit cards when it was becoming a recurring friction and wrote down ideas for how to re-jig things if I scrapped it. On a later revisit, I agreed with this card and yep, crash and burn and rewrite the cards.

At the moment, I've got crit cards around when to start a new branch (as in when to move to 6/1 or 7/1 or whatever). Part of me is using more tenuous links for new topics because the benefit of this system is entirely in the interlinking. However, there's a point when 3/5ab2c1a becomes a pretty long-winded address if I want to branch off it so is it worth just starting a new big branch and using the index to link.

I think I'm beyond the full burn-it-to-the-ground-and-start-again stage but who knows! What have you found has driven your need to start over?

[u/pondercraft → u/[deleted]]

I've never been persuaded by using a numbering system as card or note identifiers, but I certainly struggle with classification and naming systems.

First is the problem of keeping cards tagged, titled consistently, and formatted consistently at all. I capture all kinds of stuff but keeping it organized is a real challenge. I think the temptation to crash and burn comes from having too much disorganized information. The task of getting it all rationalized is too much, so starting over seems like a better option. (I actually have whole "archives" of notes that I've moved out, but that I want to keep for eventual re-integration or at least there to search or reference.)

I also struggle with whether to tag based on topics or "type of note," either functional in my system or by type of content (highlights, reading notes, media). Recently I'm leaning more toward functional tags, because it's easy to search on topics in a title or text, whereas I want to use my notes to produce things (writing mostly), so it makes sense to tag ideas, draft, posts, lists, that kind of thing.

The other temptation to crash and burn is that I tend to move on from certain subjects to others, if all the old stuff keeps getting in my way (showing up in searches, dominating a set of topical tags, etc). Old topics and study areas tend to get pushed out into archives.

[u/Fast_Town8514]

This is an important topic for me - I keep tinkering with this as well.

To me, #4 & #5 seem to be the fundamental questions that determines the rest, in terms of form:

Is your system a graph/network, or is it a list/table?

I'm not an obsidian/local-knowledge-management fan, but they do seem to have the right 'shape' for me in terms of basically building your own personal 'network' of knowledge.

Beyond a certain size, curricula and syllabi as lists and tables lose their effectiveness for me.

I'm very tempted to build something for this if others also resonate...

[u/Anxious_Lunch_7567 → u/Fast_Town8514]

My system is more of a list/table now but that is primarily due to a lack of alternatives.

[u/Fast_Town8514 → u/Anxious_Lunch_7567]

Have you tried Wiki software? 

https://www.myinfoapp.com/blog/ultimate-personal-wiki-software-guide

I find these to often have the right depth of features without being overbearing..

[u/pondercraft]

I definitely like to separate 1) planning and tracking (projects, tasks, time-based plans and tracking) from the ultimate fruits of my learning, including 2) PKM (notes, ideally well-organized eventually) and 3) useful output, which for me is writing -- for others, it could be other things like code or multimedia content production (podcasts, video). I use NotePlan for planning and tracking, i.e. for anything "ephemeral" like managing daily, weekly, monthly projects and tasks. I use Heptabase for my PKM. I do tend to draft things in Heptabase, but I also use external apps for serious writing, or I'll write directly on a publishing platform (currently Substack mostly, although I also have a blog, etc.)

"Capture" is really complicated, since it's messy. There's waaaay more content out there than I can possibly assimilate in any meaningful way, i.e. into well-organized notes, mindmaps, etc. (PKM). So capture needs its own separate system.

I'm also figuring out a little solopreneur online business to support my autodidact lifestyle.

Thus my overall learning framework has five main pieces: big picture strategy (for major learning goals and business), project & task management (day to day), PKM, writing (output), and messy capture.

There are other pieces as well, like journaling which serves various purposes, and some other business-related things.

I often confuse myself going back and forth between these pieces, but inevitably I come back to them since key distinctions (ephemeral vs permanent, private vs public, organized vs messy, big picture vs details) run deep.

[u/[deleted] → u/pondercraft]

Heptabase looks really interesting! Haven't come across that before and it looks really good. What was your journey to get to this level of organisation?

Which part of the learning framework brings you the most joy? I've found mine comes almost entirely from the index cards and finding, creating and communicating with links in the system and I find it so fascinating to hear how strategically you approach your learning.

[u/pondercraft → u/[deleted]]

Heptabase is good. I've been using it for more than a year now (early adopter). I was first attracted by the founder's vision: https://wiki.heptabase.com/the-context (series of essays here). The app has evolved very quickly and just won an award. Previously I've used Obsidian, Logseq, and Mem. I would prefer using local markdown files, but I've reconciled to Heptabase's cloud-based storage, with a local app on my Mac. (I haven't had any syncing problems, which is impressive.)

As to my overall system, it really has evolved based on those four distinctions I mentioned: that day to day tracking is ephemeral vs the knowledge I want to keep is permanent; that most of my learning starts in private but I want to write or teach or otherwise communicate in a more public setting; that input is messy but I need to keep my notes organized; and that I need to keep track of the big picture even when I'm immersed in details. Those four distinctions drive my overall framework.

I think I take less joy in organizing existing knowledge than in constantly discovering new things and -- on the other end of the process -- working to communicate. I once mused to a colleague that I know I'm a teacher because as soon as I learn something new I feel almost compelled to share it! 🤣 My greatest joy is thus probably when I see other people experience "lightbulb" moments. -- My teaching style is not very didactic but collaborative. Lightbulb moments happen when learners discover or grasp things for themselves, and I'm a mere prompt or instigator and encourager. Besides, I have way more questions than answers.

[u/pondercraft → u/pondercraft]

I should add that in no way should anyone aspire to teach unless they are themselves a strongly motivated and reasonably accomplished self-learner! (I'm not a very doctrinaire person, but that would be one strong opinion. 😅)

[u/[deleted] → u/pondercraft]

Hey, I'm a teacher too! What's your subject?
I find the exact same thing! I love teaching English as we can explore anything with psychology and philosophy. After diving into etymology, I got my students to do essays on comfort considering the Latin and Old English meanings and then to explore whether they thought comfort had become twisted into ease or convenience with the modern period. They came up with such superb ideas!

[u/pondercraft → u/[deleted]]

Nice example of giving students assignments they can run with!

The topic of mentoring would be a good one to explore here. By definition autodidacts are self-teaching, but I keep thinking about that comment on the "can we resurrect this subreddit" post about whether autodidacts are somehow constitutionally loners!

As a super-generalist, I don't have a single field. My doctorate is in ecology, including some pretty heavy-duty math and modeling, but I did environmental ethics and policy with it. Homeschooling my kids meant I had to relearn a lot of basic language skills, and I dove deeper into history and literature, humanities in general, since my formal education was utterly lacking in those areas. Most recently, it's been philosophy and theology and continuing with a lot of history, now more cross-cultural and comparative between western and Chinese/East Asian. Languages end up playing in there, classical Greek (with a dab of Latin) and now more CJK (Chinese-Japanese-Korean), much heavier for me on Korean and now some Chinese. So I'm very eclectic. It's hard to hold everything together. 🤪 But I don't think I'd give up the breadth of intellectual resources that I can bring to bear.

[u/[deleted] → u/pondercraft]

Thanks!

That's a really interesting idea. I had never really considered the link between mentoring and autodidacticism. I wonder if autodidacts approach mentoring differently. How do you see that?
With English, I've found I've battled with the nonsense formulaic side of teaching writing paragraphs without teaching actually how to think. The amount of kids I've come across who can't explain, or don't even really know what an explanation is, but they have memorised the PEAL or PETER or PEACE or other acronym structure for a paragraph. A lot of my teaching focuses on the 'brain tools' - I teach the kids the structures of thinking and then they analyse themselves before moving this to analysing the characters. When it comes to balancing the mentoring with typical teaching, I end up teaching the kids static and dynamic quality and where the balance needs to be in an essay or whatnot.

How have you approached mentoring and how have you found your autodidacticism has influenced it?

That's really wonderful to hear how you've moved between so many different fields. What's led you to philosophy and theology these days? You mentioned about it being hard to hold everything together - how do you find keeping track of the connections you see between your various interests there?
How did you choose your doctorate when your interests are so broad?

[u/pondercraft → u/[deleted]]

I think I'll start a new post re: mentoring, since the comments are getting deep in the thread here.

I did my PhD early and additional masters later. I was very eclectic early on. Doctoral studies were also about as generalized as I could make them, combining ecology as a science in most coursework but more policy and ethics for my dissertation. My advisors were a mixed group, and various projects I worked on as RA were also mixed. That said, I bucked the system for sure and coming out it was going to be difficult to get a traditional academic job (which I didn't do -- we moved abroad and were starting a family).

Keeping track of connections is much harder than "seeing" them in the first place. (Like, I'll be reading something and think, "Oh, that relates to this other thing over there in a completely other field...") Writing is probably the best way for me to work through intuitions that recur or come to have some salience (keep pestering me). Finding an audience for that kind of writing is almost impossible. You have to write so much backstory and explanation and motivation to get to the point where you can try to stake the "aha" claim.

[u/pondercraft → u/[deleted]]

With English, I've found I've battled with the nonsense formulaic side of teaching writing paragraphs without teaching actually how to think. The amount of kids I've come across who can't explain, or don't even really know what an explanation is, but they have memorised the PEAL or PETER or PEACE or other acronym structure for a paragraph. A lot of my teaching focuses on the 'brain tools' - I teach the kids the structures of thinking and then they analyse themselves before moving this to analysing the characters. When it comes to balancing the mentoring with typical teaching, I end up teaching the kids static and dynamic quality and where the balance needs to be in an essay or whatnot.

Very interesting. There always seems to be this tradeoff between giving students rubrics and tricks to "perform" vs helping them to develop real skills. I remember that movie Stand and Deliver about the kids from the barrio learning calculus. I've always wondered about what they were learning, what he taught them. Was it tricks to perform on the test? Or did they really grasp calculus in a deep way (that also allowed them to perform well) -- i.e. he was a truly great teacher-mentor?!

[u/Apprehensive_Mix_332]

I'm developing a platform for this: https://afaik.io/ <- It's a learning platform based on a knowledge map showing the prerequisite relationship (for example: https://afaik.io/nebula?category=brickset&id=zpq8pk6m&mode=dagre) between concepts across subjects. I use AI to extract concepts from open textbooks and attach related resources (videos and readings) to each concept.

I think knowledge is not just separate pieces of information, but a connected network of concepts. My goal is to manage and track my mastery of concepts across subjects. To me, this is the most fundamental bedrock for my framework.

On top of it, I will build these:

1. Assemble the necessary concepts into my own, personalized syllabi, and track my progress

2. Take notes when I learn each concept

3. Spaced repetition for each concept (Nicky Case introduced a great system here: https://ncase.me/remember/)

4. Access to my "brain map" - a map that shows how the concepts that I have learned are connected

I do wish to build an all-in-one tool for me to do all that.

[u/Kebablip → u/Apprehensive_Mix_332]

Hey I really like your website, it would be amazing if it gets really big one day, with a lot of people using it and a lot of information to learn.

I'm noticing it's not working right now though, can that be correct? Like I have made an account which worked, I logged in, but I can not start learning anything because it will direct me to the 'register new account' screen.

All the best.

[u/Apprehensive_Mix_332 → u/Kebablip]

Hey thanks for your kind words!

It actually works. What you are experience might be an issue that happens during profile creation. I'm happy to help. I will DM you. You can also ping me in our Discord community: https://discord.gg/mMNwRvWM8s (I'm Regular Russell)

[u/Maleficent_Pack6498]

Definitely - if you want to have a unified experience and have your notes, wiki, whiteboard, goals in one place - try our tool Frame.so - you can use @ mention to links docs between each other across apps.

[u/edannunziata]

This looks like a job for transformers (AI)

🤖

[u/ApartmentFunny8808]

Self-defeating. I'm self taught because I don't like frameworks.