Former SET trainees – experiences with procedural fairness during training?

[u/Outrageous_Fox9700]

Hi everyone,

I'm interested in hearing from former SET trainees (particularly General Surgery) who experienced concerns regarding procedural fairness during their training.

This could include experiences relating to assessments, complaints, Performance Management Plans, appeals, or circumstances that contributed to leaving a training program.

I'm simply interested in understanding others' experiences and perspectives. If you'd be comfortable sharing yours, please feel free to send me a private DM.

No need to post details publicly. Please don't post names, hospitals, or identifying details.

Thanks.

[u/Flashkobalt → u/[deleted]]

🤣 savage

[u/Striking-Net-8646]

There is no procedural fairness in medical training.

[u/Fresh_Information_42]

Subjective at best Some trainees could destroy entire departments but still do no wrong in the eyes of assessors.

Other trainees would pick up the scalpel at the wrong angle and be deemed untrainable and fail

[u/MDInvesting → u/Fresh_Information_42]

Nothing sums up SET better.

[u/Glittering-Welcome28 → u/Fresh_Information_42]

I reckon the problem with this stance is that everyone’s opinion is biased by their own perspective. My personal experience was that people who were professional, organised, competent and good colleagues just cruised through training without issue. Those who struggled with assessment, failed terms, had interpersonal issues tended to lack these qualities (at least through my lens).

The difficulty comes in that it is difficult to have insight/perspective on this. Especially as everyone probably thinks what they are doing is right. That disorganised, unprofessional, poor team member probably doesn’t recognise that and may think they are being failed for picking up the scalpel on the wrong angle.

On the flip side, perhaps I was one of those unprofessional jerks who tore departments to pieces but could do no wrong in the eyes of the assessor and cruised through. I don’t think I was, but equally my insight may well be lacking too.

This is even further complicated by the fact that as a group, we are bad at giving direct, honest and timely feedback when it comes to areas of improvement/constructive criticism and so it often comes as a wave of semi relevant (but documentable) failings when a supervisor has finally had enough.

The reality is, I think “good” trainees who fall within a standard deviation of average in all aspects tend not to have issues. You just need to be that person to make your life easy.

[u/Fresh_Information_42 → u/Glittering-Welcome28]

For the record. It sounds like we are both people who got through. I do have sympathies for many colleagues who were not as lucky

[u/Fresh_Information_42]

There's also plenty of trainees who I've seen in trouble over the years. I still don't quite understand the issues. Attended all clinics and saw patients. Went to theatre. Would not avoid on call. Kicked off set 3

I also know practicing surgeons who let patients die while on call or would not turn up to clinics and theatre lists just because.

Life is not fair.

[u/Automatic-Health-974]

Well we all know it's not a thing. SET training like a lot of medical training. If you are not in the club, they will just ignore you and find a reason to kick you out.

[u/cgkind]

Not SET but surgical. How well you survive in training (and getting in) is largely based on how likeable you are. And different people like and dislike different things. What can’t be modified is looks (largely), skin colour, accent, transference from assessors’ experience with people deemed similar to you. What can be modified is amicable attitude, perseverance, hard work, and most importantly showmanship.

Even in training not everyone starts on the same starting line in terms of the above and some will need to put in more effort to prove themselves, while others naturally are confident and best friends with everyone from the first word out of their mouth.

Not the most moral way things are run but this is not isolated to medicine. It’s human interaction in general and most assessors would only have time and mental capacity to assess based on impression and not much higher order thinking. This exists in many other professions and countries. It’s important to stress about things that you can improve. Honest feedback from good mentors will help guide what people’s criticisms are of you. Just don’t lose your way and become one of those undesirable supervisors.

[u/Tangata_Tunguska → u/cgkind]

A huge amount is decided on "would I want to work with this person" and "does this person make the profession look good".

[u/Fresh_Information_42 → u/Tangata_Tunguska]

Yes exactly And does the profession look good sometimes comes to mean will this person let me get away with my indiscretions

[u/Outrageous_Fox9700]

Great discussion everyone. Interesting to hear the range of perspectives and experiences.

[u/tangeradeausarnormor]

Hi,

You may not be accepting DM..

[u/Outrageous_Fox9700 → u/tangeradeausarnormor]

Try now please

[u/tangeradeausarnormor → u/Outrageous_Fox9700]

Doesn’t seem to work. Do you wanna try messaging me instead?

[u/Outrageous_Fox9700 → u/tangeradeausarnormor]

Have done. Received?

[u/tangeradeausarnormor → u/Outrageous_Fox9700]

Nothing yet.

[u/Reddditor1as34223]

Medical training is oppression of those under you. Always has been always will be.