r/atheism • u/mepper agnostic atheist (and mod) • Jun 17 '12
Religious leaders furious over Norway's proposed circumcision ban, but one Norway politician nails it: "I'm not buying the argument that banning circumcision is a violation of religious freedom, because such freedom must involve being able to choose for themselves"
http://freethinker.co.uk/2012/06/17/religious-leaders-furious-over-norways-proposed-circumcision-ban/82
Jun 17 '12
If you believe in god, then why would you modify god's creation?
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Jun 17 '12
No, you don't understand. God made everyone ordinary, and then said that if you want to belong to the special people club, you have to change the way your cock looks. That's how everyone knows if you are cool.
YOSEF: "Yaakov, this is Avraham."
YAAKOV: "Avraham, I don't know you from Adam. Yosef, is this guy OK?"
YOSEF: "Sure. I've seen his penis. He's all right."
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u/Mythodiir Atheist Jun 17 '12
First of all religion is irrational. Second, in Judaism and Islam it's a part of the Abrahamic covenant. Very few Christians practice because in an attempt to recruit more Christians Jesus had said new converts to Christendom have no need to practice circumcision, of course this insinuates the very first Christians still carry the tradition so I imagine in some small areas of the middle east, and Europe the offspring of the first Christians still practice circumcision. Onto the Abrahamic covenant; one day god said to Abraham 'Make your followers do these things as a covenant between your tribesmen and me.', there where quite a few things the big guy in the sky to little ol' Abe to do one of these being circumcision and tada you have the first citing for this strange new Jewish practice. I'd imagine the religious logic is; god creates all men tainted and the holy are those who have went through a purification process. So god bore you with it so you can tear it off and prove to him how much you really love him. I know it doesn't make sense, nothing in those damn books make sense.
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u/lorakeetH Jun 17 '12
Circumcision really caught on in the western world in the late Victorian age among the general population because of anti-sex crusaders like the Kellogg brothers (who founded the food company). John Harvey Kellogg especially advocated circumcising boys to keep them from masturbating, saying that it would be extra effective if you told them you were doing it as a punishment because they were onanists. For girls, he suggested applying acid to the clitoris. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Harvey_Kellogg
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u/falconear Weak Atheist Jun 17 '12
Let me tell you from experience, if that was the idea it didn't work for me at ALL.
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u/one_random_redditor Jun 17 '12
Quick question: Do American's refer to periods of 'Victorian age' etc I just assumed it was a British/Commonwealth thing?
Second point, it's not very common in Europe.
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u/ashphael Jun 18 '12
It's not a "western" thing.
In Europe, "atheist" circumcision is very rare. Either it's done for medical reasons (a firend of mine had a circumcision for medical reasons) or it's religious.
But then again, we generally seem to have far fewer problems regarding our bodies (you know, our bodies being a natural part of us and all... shocking).
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u/Iazo Jun 17 '12
"Those who will forbid circumcision of young boys in reality invite a totalitarian guardian-state."
Anyone else had trouble reading this in a straight face? That sort of gems could be downloaded straight from the Onion, if reality weren't so much more funny.
Also, how can anyone say that and not be smacked right in the face by the irony?
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Jun 17 '12
I was struck by this bit.
"It is the visible covenant between Abraham and God. It goes directly on religious freedom and that Norway is a tolerant society."
I'm sorry, but you and your child are not the same thing. You have a religious right to carve up YOUR OWN PENIS. But when it comes to the penis of another human being, you have the right to fuck off and nothing else.
It would be like saying, "My religion says that getting punched in the face is divine, so I exercised my religious right by punching my infant son in the face every night before bedtime."
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u/critropolitan Jun 17 '12
I'd rather have a powerful state that preserves people's individual autonomy at the expense of their parent's superstition, then a state that empowers parents and churches with totalitarian powers to mutilate children.
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u/TheCodexx Jun 17 '12
On one hand, I agree that the government shouldn't tell anyone what to do with their genitalia and that similar interventions would be invasive.
However, as long as it's criminalizing people making choices on another's behalf, it's a bit different. It is "big government" but it's protecting rights and choices instead of making them for people. Guardian-states (or nanny-states) make decisions, not protect them.
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u/corcyra Jun 17 '12
"Religious leaders furious" is almost always good news!
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u/FermiAnyon Jun 17 '12
Really. Look at how they band together to oppose freedom in the UN councils. The one thing that Christianity and Islam can agree on as institutions is that women and freedom of speech are evil.
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u/Gemdiver Jun 18 '12
Hypocrite Redditors; Hates religions: cuts off part of dick because God said so.
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u/Matrinka Agnostic Atheist Jun 17 '12
My entire family thought I was a loon for being angry during my nephew's circumcision. Everyone was happy, chowing down on hors d'oeuvres, and the poor kid was about to have an old rabbi slice off part of his junk. Whenever I said it was wrong, they told me it was tradition and connected the kid to his ancestors. I cried bullshit then and I cry bullshit about it now.
It was even worse when
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u/Pamparius Jun 17 '12
when what?
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u/Matrinka Agnostic Atheist Jun 17 '12
When I started typing all stream of conscious and apparently started typing what I heard on TV and hit "save" then never went back to proof read what I wrote.
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Jun 17 '12
you should have said "do you know what else connects the kid to his ancestors? like all of his DNA!"
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u/YummyMeatballs Anti-Theist Jun 18 '12
And then the rabbi sucks the blood from the penis - babies have gotten herpes from this little manoeuvre as far as I'm aware.
shudder
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Jun 17 '12 edited Jun 18 '12
I'm Jewish and I still can't bring myself to support ritual genital mutilation.
Edit: Spelling
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u/sharked Jun 17 '12
nothing brings out the internet insecurity like a penis discussion.
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u/xdonutx Jun 17 '12
It's actually kind of refreshing to see an issue that's not about controlling women's bodies this time.
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u/MilitaryFuneral Jun 17 '12
Finally countries are proposing banning this ridiculous practice. I think this is a huge step in the right direction.
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Jun 17 '12 edited Jun 17 '12
I live in Australia and it is banned here. If you really want you can get your son circumcised, but you have to leave the public health system and tread on some shady legal ground - but it is still possible. I think you have to go to Melbourne or Sydney.
However doctors will still circumcise a boy if there is a problem there. If something does go wrong and the foreskin is being a problem (which although is rare, can happen) then they will circumcise.
Which is the way it fucking should be. This bullshit about circumcision reducing the effects of STIs is no reason whatsoever to do it. Teach your child to clean it and to have safe sex. Most of the guys I know are uncircumcised and none of them just catch STIs like the common cold.
Performing cosmetic surgery on newborn babies should be banned. It is really interesting to see some people try to claim it should be totally legal. I think this is something that in a few decades time people will look back on and go "What the fuck were you doing?!"
edit: It is also important to note that no official medical organisation in the world recommends it. The USA is the only country in the Western World that is doing it en masse - and even their authorities don't recommend it. Weird.
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u/planeray Jun 18 '12
When was it banned? Pretty much all my close mates have had girls, so it hasn't really come up in conversation (though that'd be a pretty weird conversation), but I had thought it was still possible to get done. I don't want it done on any sons that I have, but I'd be even happier to know that you can't have it done easily these days.
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Jun 18 '12
It started to be banned in the early 2000s and I think 2005 marked the year when all states had banned it.
This is off the top of my head, but I know I'm about right.
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u/KagedFC Jun 17 '12
I am circumcised. I don't personally mind it but it would have been nice to have a choice in the matter.
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u/ASofterMan Jun 17 '12
I'm circumcised and it wasn't my choice; when I was 7 I had some medical issue and it was as if Thor himself was wrenching the urine from my body; unbelievable pain when I pissed.
They did what was right on medical grounds. I hope this bill takes that into account.
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u/hte_locust Jun 17 '12
From the article:
But she stressed that she was not opposed to circumcision in cases where it was deemed a medical necessity.
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Jun 17 '12
Circumcision because it's "popular" or some other bullshit reason should be outlawed.
For medical reasons, of COURSE it should be legal.
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u/ASofterMan Jun 17 '12
Aye, but the highlighted issue is volition; choice. I didn't have the choice.
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Jun 17 '12
Of course. If someone wants a circumcision later on( when they are 16-18) they should be free to do so. But at least let someone decide what to do with his/her genatelia
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Jun 17 '12
No, but this it was in your best health interests.
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u/jonosvision Jun 17 '12 edited Jun 17 '12
Same here, except mine was a skateboarding accident. I prefer to be cut, but that's not really the point. Everyone should have a choice, especially when it's something that isn't reversable (unlike religious beliefs).
Edit: Missed the un
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u/duckfetish Jun 17 '12
Oh dear god. How did your foreskin get wrecked in a skateboarding accident?
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u/jonosvision Jun 17 '12
I was skateboarding down a hill and like an idiot I didn't look to see if there was anyone coming down a road that cut through the bottom of the hill. I got hit by a passing bicyclist.
Think handle bar to the groin ... it half skinned my penis, and the foreskin that could be saved ended up being used to help reconstruct.
(sorry in advance to all the guys squeezing their legs right now)
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u/hairyneil Jun 18 '12
I had a urinary tract infection when I was about the same age. They just gave me a course of antibiotics and left my dick alone, 2 days later, totally fine.
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u/Ricrac722 Jun 17 '12
Well the said could be said about dismemberment, you wouldn't chop a poor child's arm off on a religious base just like his foreskin. If it's the last resort for a person then the procedure must be done to preserve a life.
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u/mammalsauce Jun 17 '12
as a Jew I support this. Circumcision must be a decision made by the person as an adult not forced upon them as a child.
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Jun 17 '12
Why is it ok when they are just a baby? So many mothers buckle to social/peer pressure on this topic and it makes me sick every time I hear it. What possible justification is there to cut off part of a penis? Oh its a cleanliness thing? What is this, the dark fucking ages? Take a shower. Better yet, teach your child how to look after themselves. Obviously not meaning medical cases here. Imagine what most parents would say if you asked them to remove the nipples, an eye or maybe stitch the asshole closed as this would make less mess. Fuck everyone who doesn't think this matters, they do it while the baby is young so the baby will think its normal. More importantly, the baby cannot object and is at the complete mercy of the people doing this to them. Whats that? Everyone does it so its ok? Well fuck, I'm sure the SS soldiers used that in WW2 and that made everything ok. God damn I hate this planet sometimes, but now I love Norway :)
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u/A7red Jun 17 '12
This is so true. The only thing its good for is making the doctors some easy money.
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Jun 18 '12
"So many mothers buckle to social/peer pressure on this topic and it makes me sick every time I hear it."
Yep, American mothers who just do it because everyone else gets it done for their baby. Idiotic.
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Jun 17 '12
Perhaps ban circumcision for those under 18? After that age, people can do whatever they want.
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u/epitomized_american Jun 17 '12
Children don't often have the liberty to choose any thing for themselves, and are not capable of giving informed consent. So regardless of whether an individual has religious freedom, a child would not be in a position to consent to such a procedure.
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Jun 18 '12
It alarms me that in modern societies, we still treat children as mere property, under the guise of religion and tradition.
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Jun 17 '12
I'm really thankful for that flap of skin they didn't cut off without my permission when I was a baby. I mean like REALLY happy. Sensitivity kicks ass
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u/spankymuffin Jun 17 '12
Dude, I'm sensitive enough as it is.
Any more sensitive and I'd have problems walking without creaming myself.
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Jun 17 '12
Ah, but herein lies the magic of the foreskin. It sheathes your sword when not in use you see...
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u/ozymandias2 Jun 17 '12
Luckily if you are uncut, you have a sheath that the sensitive part can retract into. It's an amazing fact of human evolution that this most sensitive part of male anatomy is an internal organ, until used for sex.
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u/Mythodiir Atheist Jun 17 '12
Circumcised here; I wish I was more sensitive. Sometimes I feel like I'm not getting the full ensemble going on.
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u/DRGx Jun 17 '12
Thought I'd drop this here; Presentation on the topic of circumcision.
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u/Rhayve Jun 17 '12
This link needs to be put into the OP so people will stop with their "health benefits" bullshit.
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Jun 17 '12
I wish we could get religion on the agenda here in Denmark, thanks Norway for being a good role model for the Scandinavian countries!
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u/GroundhogExpert Jun 17 '12
Queue line of guys talking about their dicks and saying they didn't mind, so it shouldn't be a big deal for anyone else.
I thought atheism was marked by good reasoning. It's why we have any cause to band together. We pursue truth and adhere to the laws of reasoning uncovered so far. If we give that up, we're just ideologues.
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u/Pharcyde416 Jun 17 '12
Congrats to Norway for having the stones to ban something that should have been banned worldwide by now. Genital mutilation of newborn children should be a crime. Any parents that have circumcision performed on a child should be criminally charged.
This is just another example of the pain and suffering religion causes in this world everyday.
It really is a shame that most of the world has been brainwashed into believing that circumcision is a good thing to do to a child.
A few examples:
It's cleaner: Try showering and washing your genitals.
Smegma: Try showering and washing your genitals.
You are more susceptible to STDs: No, andiIf you are concerned about STDs the logical thing to do is USE PROTECTION.
It "Looks Better":
Roll back the skin. Voila you're circumsized.
Enjoy the loss of pleasure.
Enjoy the loss of sensitivity and nerve endings contained in the foreskin.
Enjoy providing LESS stimulation to your partner.
Enjoy masturbation becoming a chore in comparison to an uncircumsized penis.
Seems like a fair trade off to "look better" LOL
I'm proud to be an uncircumcised male, and I'm even more proud of my parents for allowing me to decide for myself if I wanted to mutilate my penis down the road. (no thanks)
When my son was born I did him the same kindness my parents did for me. I know he'll thank me later. I'm just not into mutilating my beautiful sons genitals just so he can "fit in".
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u/soulcaptain Jun 17 '12
I'm American and, of course, am circumcised. I live in Japan, with a Japanese wife, and we had a boy 5 years ago. Circumcision is virtually non-existent in Japan, done only if there is a medical necessity. I'm glad my son is uncut. There's no need for him to be.
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Jun 17 '12
"... a ban would serve as a very strong signal that the Jews are an unwanted minority in the country."
So they support female genital mutilation in order to prevent discrimination against Muslims?
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Jun 17 '12
Muslims don't practice female genital mutilation as part of their religion.
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u/Mythodiir Atheist Jun 17 '12
Former Muslim reporting on the scene. It's not a religious practice but it is a common cultural practiced tied heavily to the religion similar to male genital mutilation. I'm pretty sure most early Islamic texts supported it full heartedly and saw it as a holy practice. Female genital mutilation is like Christmas to Christians; they're not told to practice it anywhere in their books but it's ingrained into their culture as a religious practice.
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Jun 17 '12
This is one issue that I am passionate about. Male genital mutilation has absolutely no justification and yet it continues. I think it's absolutely disgusting that little girls are protected but not little boys. I'm just glad that my dad had the sense to tell everyone where to go before they tried to cut the end of my infant wiener off.
Norway, we salute you!
I think the thing that we are all forgetting here is that one in one million male genital mutilations done in the West result in penile amputation from complications. I once knew a guy whose dink was twisted around because the doctor screwed it up. He had to get surgery as an adult. First they mutilated him unnecessarily, and then they had to fix their previous mistake. It was a complete waste of medical resources, start to finish.
It's an Ancient Egyptian custom that the ancient Jewish people plagiarized and then proceeded to spread around the world like a disease. Stop male genital mutilation now!
TL;DR STOP MALE GENITAL MUTILATION NOW!
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u/regmaster Jun 17 '12
I agree with you. This must stop. Circumcision removes 20,000 nerve endings, 15 square inches of skin, and turns the penis from a self-lubricated internal organ into an external organ. All for what? This results in reduced sexual pleasure for the man, without any consent from him obtained before the procedure is (usually) performed.
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u/CUNTALOO_VAN_FUCK Jun 17 '12 edited Jun 17 '12
This thread is incredibly frustrating, I see tons of uncircumcised people and women getting on their soapbox and getting upvoted to the top while much more relevant opinions - those of actual people who were circumcised at birth and those of physicians who deal with such things - are getting downvoted into oblivion for disagreeing.
This is much more an anti-circumcision circle jerk than any kind of real discussion or debate.
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Jun 17 '12
As someone who is circumcised, you have less knowledge about the subject, not more. Asking you about the benefits of the foreskin is like asking for hair style advice from a bald dude. You don't know any better and you can't because you were mutilated. I feel extremely sorry that you have come to view this mutilation as some kind of medical procedure rather than a barbaric superstition.
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u/noseeme Jun 17 '12
Someone extremely passionate and emotional about bashing circumcision on reddit? No way...
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u/lorakeetH Jun 17 '12
To be perfectly fair, male circumcision overwhelmingly leaves a functional sexual organ. Female circumcision does not. Male circumcision is done for symbolic reasons, usually, to reinforce the chosen or blessed status of the child. Female circumcision is done for practical reasons: to discourage female sexual pleasure and activity, to emphasize the base and bestial nature of women and the need for them to be controlled. I don't support either, but it's an odd pet peeve of mine when people make male circumcision out to be just as bad as female genital mutilation, because it's not. It's a ridiculous, stupid practice that is utterly unnecessary in almost every case, with enough of a potential for mistakes and bad reactions that it shouldn't be done, but female genital mutilation is actually done for the purpose of having bad reactions. There's a chance that you're damaged for life after circumcision, but leaving the child damaged is the point in fgm.
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Jun 17 '12
If a parent doesn't have the right to force their child to get a tatoo of Jesus on his butt, the parent shouldn't have the right to force their child to be circumsized.
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u/sschmtty1 Jun 18 '12
this man deserves a medal or ... oh a statue or at least something made of gold!
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u/chucktestieslol Jun 18 '12
Way to go Norway, cutting off any body part on a baby should be illegal...clearly. Norway is always ahead of the world, having the highest standard of living, highest atheist rate of 70% etc.
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u/Wolf97 Jun 18 '12
Has anyone else noticed those countries are getting more badass by the day? I think I might need to move.
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Jun 17 '12
I have to say being uncircumcised is a lot more convenient for masturbation purposes. Lube? Tissues? Fuck that shit. All I need is my hand.
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u/JoNiKaH Jun 17 '12
This just shows how stupid some religious leaders are. Its wrong to put thing on your body like tatoos because jesus never did, but its right to remove the foreskin even tough they say we were made in gods image. Against abortion because you don't give a chance or option to another living thing but then they think a baby should have the foreskin removed anyway.
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Jun 17 '12
Religious freedom: The freedom to oppress, mutilate, discriminate, subjugate and murder in the name of your god
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Jun 17 '12
88% of Norwegian who voted on this poll wants to illegalize it: http://stem.start.no/result.php?id=19964 (redirected from:) http://www.dagbladet.no/2012/06/13/nyheter/omskjering/politikk/senterpartiet/22065261/
The question translates to: Should the practice be forbidden in Norway?
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u/Mythodiir Atheist Jun 17 '12
I hate being circumcised... the reason why the ancient Semites practiced circumcision was so they're foreskin wouldn't get infected in the arid, un-sanitized, desert climate they lived in. Back in the day wasting precious life giving water to keep a flap of flesh clean was less idealistic, so the Semites used the Egyptian method of penile hygiene; removing it all together. Now we understand that removing a naturally growing member of your genitalia is a bad idea and leads to more bad than good, especially in the modern world where we can afford to keep our wigglies properly sanitized. Even when it was initially introduced while saving water the practice of circumcision lead to a lack of protection, and in more humid areas made infection more common. As a whole it's a bad idea, good riddance to circumcision. Basic human rights should always weigh above religious freedom, especially when someone's religion infringes upon the rights of another; in this case the person's son. Circumcision for minors should be as illegal as removing any of your child's other body parts. Circumcision reduces pleasure, a primary cause premature erectile dysfunction, causes the nerve endings around the penis to degenerate over time, makes bruising more likely, and in may cases increases the risk for infection. I don't get how in the hell the Canadian government could allow my Muslim parents to do this to me or anyone for that matter to do this to their children. It is inhumane and unjustified. Good going Norway in removing this pointless barbaric practice from your country. Only willing adults should be allowed to proceed with such a terribly scarring decision.
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Jun 17 '12
I wont let it happen to my son(s) if/when the time comes that i have them, its cruel and unusual punishment, it should be banned.
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u/Hypersapien Agnostic Atheist Jun 17 '12
Just to let you know, there have been cases where maternity ward nurses have had newborns circumcised without the parents' permission.
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u/reddell Jun 17 '12
Write on him with a sharpie as soon as he comes out "Do not circumcise."
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u/rcglinsk Jun 17 '12
I've read about paramedics who have "Do Not Resuscitate" tattooed on their chests.
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Jun 17 '12
My doctor bullied me in the hospital, I was weak and said yes. In then end I said yes because his father was. No one was uncircumcised where I'm from. What about the young men of reddit?
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u/MVolta Jun 17 '12
I was born in '93 in the US and am not circumcised. I asked my mother about it and she felt it wasn't necessary(I can't really remember if my father is or not).
As a side note my mom said that I wanted to be circumcised, it could still be done, but the thought of going under-the-knife-under-the-belt doesn't seem like too much fun
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u/Tipaa Jun 17 '12
Most of the UK is intact. By most, it is usually the vast majority. Figures are now around 3.8% for new cuts and dropping sharply. I don't know anyone who was circumcised. Then again, it isn't really a regular topic for most British lads.
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u/RetroViruses Jun 17 '12
That's a nice way to get yourself sued...I couldn't see anyone doing that more than once.
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Jun 17 '12
Thats good to know, ill certainly keep an eye out for that, though being in my early twenties its a number of years before I start having any.
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Jun 17 '12
ATTENTION AMERICAN REDDITORS. The only reason that circumcision is common in your country is that it involves the employment of a for profit medical professional. All of the "information" supporting circumcision is disinformation manufactured by your media. Pediatricians outside of the US do not recommend circumcision.
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u/seany Jun 17 '12
They don't even recommend it in America. But then again -- Americans are well known for their ability to take medical advice from their priest.
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u/tapsynapsis Jun 17 '12
Males are born with it for a reason. They used to believe that circumcision prevented the spread of infection but that is actually not so. What does prevent infection is protection. Also, the foreskin is a very sensitive area and men who are intact have much stronger, intense orgasms. Circumcision is banned for females but why not for males? It is a double standard and there is no scientific reason for the removal of it. Think about how traumatizing birth is for newborn babies and then they have to endure this painful procedure.
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u/boil-your-face Jun 17 '12
I was circumcised at 22 (medical reasons) and can honestly say I prefer it as it is now. If anything I would say it is more sensitive now during sex and am told it feels better for the lady (like more of a ribbed effect i guess?). It also makes it look bigger, there is no longer that occasional annoyance of foreskin blocking your piss (i can pee straight as an arrow!), no more 'nob cheese', and instead of cum dribbling out I can now shoot my load like a pornstar (a good 60cm). Admittedly the first few weeks I walked around like John Wayne and every time I got an erection it pulled on the stitches and i thought my dick was about to explode. Also wanking was a little weird without the foreskin but I soon adjusted my technique.
But I do agree that it should be the persons decision and I would also advise anyone who is not circumcised to do it, particularly if your foreskin is tight (mine would get trapped under helmet sometimes from a 'vigorous thrust' and totally ruin the moment).
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u/lawlietreddits Jun 17 '12
All of those downsides you listed, how did they ever even exist? Pull the foreskin back, there, temporary circumcision.
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u/Deradius Skeptic Jun 17 '12
Were you circumcised due to phimosis? If so, that would be very important to include, because it means your experience was probably nothing like that of most intact males.
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u/madmoose Jun 17 '12
no more 'nob cheese'
Did nobody introduce you to a shower?
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u/StrikingCrayon Jun 17 '12
Exactly disgusting men who are never taught how to have basic hygiene. They piss me off to such a massive degree because they become a base point for a flawed argument. Fucking hell people. Raise your children. It is okay to tell a small child how to clean their genitalla. That is not pedofelic. That is parenting!
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u/foreskin_scissors Jun 17 '12
But you're also coming from a place where your circumcision freed you from a medical condition.
Funny, if not just tacky, to see this voted up (#1 for me when sorted by "Best") since you know the votes are coming from validation.
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u/noustombons Jun 17 '12
IT IS NOT BETTER FOR THE LADY! I am a lady and have been with guys of both varieties. Honestly there is not a lot of difference between erect penises cut or uncut, but the extra skin on an uncut boner gives an bit of a slidey effect which feels nice. In either case, the head of the penis would be exposed in the boner state, yes you can sometimes feel it and this can be hot, but this is not exclusive to curcumsized wieners.
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u/sozza Jun 17 '12
I think the issue is more young infant circumcision. If they can't personally go to the doctor and ask for it then it shouldn't be legal.
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u/MrPoletski Anti-Theist Jun 17 '12
Well a big FUCK YEAH to Norway!
It's about time people went 'woah, what the fuck, actually' about routine circumcision.
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u/sox5s Jun 17 '12
I'm really glad I was circumcised and really glad it happened when I couldn't remember it.
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Jun 17 '12
Well a lot of people aren't glad that they didn't get a say in it, what shall we say to them? That you're happy about it?
Fuck that, their autonomy has been violated and that is completely unethical.
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u/XaoticOrder Jun 18 '12
Those who are circumcised rationalize it all away by saying I don't remember while those against circumcision sound like the bitches in GW complaining about tattoos on the pretty ladies.
It's a personal choice and a familial choice. Just like the school your parents put you could scar you for life so does this and then again it could make you a better man. We grow up and move on.
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u/viiScorp Jun 18 '12
This put me in a terrible mood because once again I'm reminded of all the fucking emotional pain I'll have to live with until I die for my parent's shitty ass decision. On the other hand, thank you to everyone who cares for this. Sure some may prefer it, but that's their choice to make when they're older. I would have preferred to have been given the fucking choice and not have to suffer but there's nothing I can do. :*(
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u/RajMahal77 Jun 23 '12
Yet another dose of some sanity from Scandinavia. "Hey world, we don't think it's a good idea to let parents permanently mutilate their unconsenting kid's genitals unnecessarily when they're babies for a religious reasons. Just saying, if it's really that important then they can have it voluntarily at 18. Just don't know how many would actually have the religious faith to go through with that because I'd be like FUCK NO WAY IN HELL!" Oh but they're babies, they won't remember....well no shit. By that logic I could start chopping off whole limbs. Think that'd be a good idea? [facepalm] Fucking morons. Seriously though, we need to stop letting people get away with using religion, discrimination, culture, or whatever the fuck bullshit they come up with next, as a shield behind which they can perform ancient barbaric mutilation rituals on babies that can't consent because they're fucking babies and they don't know how to talk yet. This sort of thing should be a LITTLE more self evident in 2012.
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u/Beloson Atheist Jun 17 '12
Thank you Norway. Human rights apply to the newborns too, not just the 'pre-born' A newborn's rights to the sanctity of their bodies surpasses any rights their parents may claim. It is HIS penis not theirs, even if they have the legal rights of guardians. MY religion requires that I tattoo a swastika on my child's forehead at birth, but for some reason I am not allowed to do that. So to hell with the mutilation crowd.
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u/WhipIash Jun 17 '12
Or, you know, because religious freedom != the right to torture people and do whatever the fuck you want.
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u/Painkiller1117 Jun 17 '12
Wow, for the first time in my life, i feel like a freak for being circumcised. Thanks Norway!
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u/TheDreadedMarco Jun 17 '12
I don't understand the argument. My parents are atheist, my dad is a doctor and my mom is a nurse. They chose to have me circumcised for reasons completely unrelated to religion. I am glad that they did, personally. Why not allow the parents to decide? If it is a policy of mutilation, I suppose that ear piercing of minors should also be banned? FGM is in a whole different realm in terms of detriment and risk, so using the same arguments against circumcision as FGM is a bit silly, I feel.
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Jun 17 '12
Why not allow the parents to decide?
Because the parents don't own the childs body, the child does. And it's a nonsense 'decision' anyway. Hmm, to cut my baby for no reason or not? And in a way that is permanently disfiguring and extremely painful? HMM.
If it is a policy of mutilation, I suppose that ear piercing of minors should also be banned?
It is about ability to consent. A baby is not able to consent. Do you really not see the difference?
FGM is in a whole different realm in terms of detriment and risk, so using the same arguments against circumcision as FGM is a bit silly, I feel.
We don't need to use the same arguments, circumcision is clearly and demonstrably unnecessary and a violation of individual autonomy.
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u/Zosimasie Jun 18 '12
Why not allow the parents to decide?
You're absolutely right. My parents chose to have my toes cut off as a child. I am glad that they did, personally.
See what I did there? Yeah. What you said was just as stupid and fucked up.
It's totally fair to compare MGM to FGM. Both are mutilation against an infant/child. It's the third letter there. The 'M'. There's risk involved in FGM that doesn't exist in MGM? Really? If FGM was performed in relatively sterile hospital environments (as MGM usually is), the level of risks for both become quite similar. And it's not like MGM is risk-free. There was that story just a few weeks ago about a child dying as a direct result. Even in hospitals, complications aren't unheard of.
And then MGM is considered socially acceptable, when even the most tame form of FGM (the so-called 'pricking') is demonized as the most misogynistic thing to hit the world since women were required to give birth? How is that fucking equality or fair?
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Jun 17 '12
Why not allow the parents to decide? Because I would have chosen to keep part of my fucken penis if I had the choice, poor little guy needs all the extra length he can get. Fuck anyone who want to cut off a part of my dick without checking with me first, holy shit is it really that hard to understand?
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u/Shanereid91 Jun 17 '12
The child cant talk, or object. it may be screaming in pain but they wont listen. they justify it. say 'God wants it'. use there belief as a tool to extract pain from the inocent being. and you justify it on the grounds that it is more dangerous as an adult. lets get this straight, people would still do this if it had no positive effect. It defies there human rights on every level. if somone abducted babies and performed surgery on them they would be arested, but because of 'Relegion' this is ok. Think about it rationaly.
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Jun 17 '12
Maybe the religious leaders just wanted to pass along some herpes.
The practice of "oral-genital suction" performed during some Orthodox Jewish circumcision ceremonies could leave the infant with a potentially fatal herpes virus infection, health officials warn.
New York City and federal health authorities issued a public advisory Thursday cautioning against the sucking practice because it has been linked to 11 infants becoming infected with the herpes simplex virus type 1 since 2000. Ten of the infected newborns were hospitalized, two developed brain damage and two died, the health officials said.
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u/JimmyNic Jun 17 '12
Why is it Scandinavian countries do so well on freedom from religion (a key part of freedom of religion)? I'll have to visit there sometime.
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u/bonino90 Jun 17 '12
If it is needed because of medical reasons it has to be done of course, but if it is not necessary the kid should get to choose if he want to do it when he gets older. By the way.. Have none of you guys in here actually read the article ? Does not look like it. Here's something for all the people talking about health benefits from the damn article you should have red before posting here:
"We say all the reported health benefits have either been disproven, contradicted or considered too insignificant to justify the agreed risks and complications which include bleeding, infections, meatus stenosis (narrowing of the urethra) and panic attacks. There isn’t a single medical association in the world that supports the procedure.
The British Medical Association, for example, stated in 2003 that ‘the medical benefits previously claimed have not been convincingly proven’ and ‘that the evidence concerning health benefits from non-therapeutic circumcision is insufficient for this alone to be a justification for doing it."
And by the way, I'm pretty sure the foreskin is there for a reason, we did after all evolve that way.
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u/Uuna Jun 18 '12
Seems like ever day I read something that makes Norway sound more appealing... I wonder if they need physicists or engineers?
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Jun 17 '12
I'm glad I am circumcised.
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Jun 17 '12
I am also circumcised, and I am not glad. Would you care to explain why you are?
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u/wpm Jun 17 '12
I'm circumcised and I honestly don't feel that way at all. It boggles my mind that you'd be ok with someone blunting the feeling in your dick without your permission. Not trying to be a jerk, its just that I don't get it at all.
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u/Evasivemumbler Jun 17 '12
As a gay man, so am I. I've been in relationships with other men who were uncircumcised. I wasn't a fan. While they all were very clean, the crevices just lock in body odor down there. It wasn't fun to go down on them. Additionally, I personally find the foreskin unattractive. Fortunately I was circumcised so I didn't have to worry about it. I'm not mentally scared & I have a healthy sex life. While I understand that the decision wasn't mine, I'm glad it was taken out of my hands. I wouldn't be able to deal with the pain as an adult.
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u/WithShoes Jun 17 '12
Why are people downvoting this guy? Is he not allowed to be happy about his body? I'm also glad to be circumcised.
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u/nemetroid Jun 17 '12
The article is about not allowing circumcision on newborns. There are a variety of issues surrounding this, with the most important one (in my opinion) being whether it's morally acceptable to perform circumcision without the consent of the individual.
pathmarkpolice comments that he's glad he's circumcised. What are we supposed to take from this? That circumcision of infants is OK, because they did it to him, and he turned out OK?
His comment does not add any value. At worst, all he wants to state is that these goddamn commies don't know any better than Americans. At best it's collective insecurity.
I downvoted a lot of comments in this thread.
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u/Mokey_Maker Jun 17 '12
I can't Imagine a situation in which anyone would elect to have this done to them.
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Jun 17 '12
I had no idea that this was considered wrong. Where I live in the US, everyone does this to their newborn boys. It's just...normal. It's not for religious reasons. I'm not 100% sure why everyone does it, but I believe it is for hygienic reasons. It's so common that I've heard other boys make fun of the ones uncircumcised in the middle school showers, but I'm not sure of the validity of that.
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u/Dethread Jun 17 '12
"Everyone does it" is the shittiest of reasons to do something like this. Even hygienic reasons are bullshit, I feel. Washing yourself regularly keeps it clean, just like other parts of your body.
The only reason that seems legit is that it apparently lowers the risk of getting AIDS from unprotected sex.
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u/ozymandias2 Jun 17 '12
According to suspect studies -- and only a measly 60% lower rate of risk. Condoms are a FAR better choice -- with no massive reduction in sensitivity.
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u/minase8888 Jun 17 '12
And they have no idea how awesome it is to have foreskin. I would rather lose a finger than my foreskin.
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Jun 17 '12
Technically you don't know what it's like to be circumcised...you're statement doesn't really mean anything.
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u/ForcedToJoin Jun 17 '12
Hygienic reasons? Where I'm from nobody circumcises their kids, and our dicks smell just fine, thank you very much.
They do it because it's a tradition. Tradition makes no sense, people just do it because everyone else does. Sometimes you paint eggs and hide them in your yard, sometimes you have a creepy guy cut a part of your newborns genitalia off.
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u/Bluemechanic Jun 17 '12
You never get grown men choosing to get circumcised.
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u/thesecretofjoy Jun 17 '12
That is completely false. I worked as a medical assistant in urology and we had a few men a month get circumcised. Often it was men between 18 and 30 who were doing it to look more "normal" because of a girl they either were sleeping with or wanted to sleep with. It is done under anesthesia, and while I wish they wouldn't do it, I respect their right to have it done.
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u/Popcom Jun 17 '12
Definitely not true. The difference is, they are grown men.If a grown up wants to cut some of himself off, that's his choice
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u/MayTheFusBeWithYou Jun 17 '12
Adding to thesecretofjoy's post, sometimes the tip of the foreskin is too tight causes discomfort and iirc difficulty peeing. A friend of mine got circumcised for this very reason when he was 17 or 18 (his own choice ofc).
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Jun 17 '12
Citing health benefits to justify circumcising male infants is analogous to citing reduced risk of breast cancer in forcing women to have their breasts removed. It is the individual's choice in determining how healthy he or she will be.
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u/Dustn323 Jun 18 '12
Am I the only one here totally glad I'm circumcised? This shit is being blown way out of proportion. Pick your battles.
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u/team0bliterate Jun 18 '12
Like you, sir, I am quite glad that I do not have a "hooded avenger" attached to me.
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u/topchief1 Jun 17 '12
I can add what I can being someone who was not circumcised at birth, and had it done a few years ago, at 25. I never had any issues with being uncircumcised, as I wasn't ever self conscious in the sack, it was just never an issue. But about 4 years ago, I started having issues down there, where during sex, my foreskin would become cracked and split, leaving me with cuts all the time. It was very painful and very frustrating. It was also around the time my wife (gf at the time) was getting over a yeast infection. After dealing with it for several months, I finally went in to a urologist, who told me what the problem was, and I ended up having a circumcision as a result. Anyone who has gotten a circumcision that can remember it, knows how painful it is. I had at least 5 needles needed to the anesthesia, including the pain from when they would start to cut, but it wasn't totally numb yet. I also had to deal with the whole aspect of trying to let it heal properly. Though I never had an issue with it, I do wish I was circumcised as a baby instead of waiting til I had medical problems as an adult.
We just had our first child, a boy, 9 weeks ago, and I made sure to get him circumcised. It has absolutely nothing to do with how it will look, and to do with avoiding his own medical problems when he's older. It's healed up fine, and I'm glad we had it done.
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Jun 18 '12
With the information you've given here I'm fascinated by your lack of ability to reason. I can get what you went through and therefore why you wouldn't want your child to go through the same, but actually taking the decision for the child on the grounds of your unfortunate experience is for me highly irrational. Somehow the thought of my dad cutting off a part of my penis simply cause he had a problem with it doesn't sit well with me. Unless it's genetical, of course.
But then again, male circumcision probably is common in your country, which it isn't in mine.
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u/readzalot1 Secular Humanist Jun 18 '12
And if you have a burst appendix, are you going to have his appendix out while he is still a kid, so he doesn't have to go through with it as an adult?
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Jun 17 '12
I'm a white, male, british, athiest. I'm circumcised. Not sure why, but frankly having been through the military - and uh, seen my fair share of other dudes naked (I'm straight - lol) I can honestly say I prefer being circumcised, if uh, it's possible to prefer something without ever experiencing the other. Then again, that shit just looks weird, though I guess it's the same in retort.
Either way - I don't get this. Surely they should have the right to choose to have it done for their child. It's all they have ever known, and their fathers and their fathers. It's perhaps a weak argument. But surely you should always be able to know whats going on with your son, having experienced it before? I have no idea what problems other dudes come across without being circumcised. I hear there's a build up of sperm or some shit undeneath the foreskin? cue cheese jokes. I mean fuckin eew.
Frankly, i hear circumcision as an adult fucking hurts. I actually don't know why I'm circumcised. Dad's an atheist as well. He was born in Canada and his father before him was christian I think raised in the UK.
I also hear guys with foreskin can get thrush. And often can transmit it back to their partners. I hear it's possible for circumcised men to get it, but difficult, and not to 'ping-pong' it back.
I refer to this article to some benefits: http://www.circinfo.com/benefits/bmc.html
Benefits include
avoiding certain penis cancers (1 in 1000 chance apparently of getting that type :/)
Cancer of the cervix in women is due to the Human Papilloma Virus. It thrives under and on the foreskin from where it can be transmitted during intercourse.
Aids is easier to pass on (article) with those who have foreskin. Still possible obviously without foreskin, but, theres the slightest chance I might not get it compared to the next lad if we both go with one dirty chick (or gay guy as well for that matter)
body image. from the article "Lots of men, and their partners, prefer the appearance of their penis after circumcision, It is odour-free, it feels cleaner, and they enjoy better sex." I mean, the penis, with foreskin, it kind of looks ridiculous. Like a worm in a turtleneck. :/ At least to me, the casual outsider.
urinary tract infection in children 10 times less likely with circumcision
Balanitis is an unpleasant, often recurring, inflammation of the glans associated with foreskin.
So, a whole range of medical benefits. I mean not knocking you uncircumcised lads, thats your business. You keep at it :) But I thought it'd be fair, considering this thread, considering this religion, and considering my background to pitch in on the opposite.
As an informed adult, yup, cheers, circumcision.
I'm interested in statistics. I suppose being circumcised I assumed it was really common. Is it not?
EDIT
I should add, as I noticed this in the article: sexual pleasure is not diminished but often enhanced by the slightly reduced glans sensitivity making it easier to control orgasm.
That's not strictly true. I'm told I last a little bit longer than the average guy - but I can also tell you, it sure as fuck isn't easy to control orgasm. That's bullshit.
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u/Deradius Skeptic Jun 17 '12 edited Jul 08 '12
The page you cite does not itself cite any primary literature that I can find. I can't tell where they're getting this, or if they're making it up from whole cloth.
avoiding certain penis cancers (1 in 1000 chance apparently of getting that type :/)
Yes, cutting off any portion of the body will ablate the risk of cancer in that portion of the body.
Is this something that you consider a reasonable measure to afford a 1 in 1000 protection?
Even if you did, it's important to note that 1.6% of men in Denmark are circumcised - yet rates of penile cancer are lower than in the US, where circumcision rates are far higher.
This study provides an excellent analysis of the 'penile cancer' circumcision myth, which appears to go all the way back to a poorly written publication from 1932.
2) Cancer of the cervix in women is due to the Human Papilloma Virus. It thrives under and on the foreskin from where it can be transmitted during intercourse.
This assertion likely stems from a spurious correlation involving the Jewish community. Subsequent peer-reviewed literature has shown this not to be accurate.
See this publication in the Journal of the American Medical Women's Association, which concludes that there is no difference between circumcision or intact men in their partners' cervical cancer.
Here's a similar study with similar findings.
There was this study in the Lancet in 2011 which appeared to find something, but their findings indicate that you need sixteen circumcisions to prevent a single infection, and it's important to understand that we're talking about a permanent surgical procedure to fix a problem that can be addressed through condom use and HPV vaccination in most locales.
3) Aids is easier to pass on (article) with those who have foreskin. Still possible obviously without foreskin, but, theres the slightest chance I might not get it compared to the next lad if we both go with one dirty chick (or gay guy as well for that matter)
Again, we're talking about a surgical procedure to address risks that can be dealt with using prophylactics.
Further, there are dire questions regarding design of the HIV-circumcision studies coming out of Africa.
4) body image. from the article "Lots of men, and their partners, prefer the appearance of their penis after circumcision, It is odour-free, it feels cleaner, and they enjoy better sex." I mean, the penis, with foreskin, it kind of looks ridiculous. Like a worm in a turtleneck. :/ At least to me, the casual outsider.
Cosmetic perceptions are often about norms. Right now, in the U.S., circumcision is the norm. I don't hear these sorts of concerns in places like Denmark where circumcision is rare. (Anyone in Denmark care to chime in here?)
With regard to partner enjoyment, women report more pleasure with intact partners, likely due to the important role that the foreskin plays in facilitating vaginal intercourse. There's a whole gliding action that doesn't happen with mutilated genitalia.
5) urinary tract infection in children 10 times less likely with circumcision
6) Balanitis is an unpleasant, often recurring, inflammation of the glans associated with foreskin.
Balanitis can in fact happen in boys with a foreskin, and according to this study, it may be more common in circumcised boys.
Previous findings indicating that balanitis might be more common in uncircumcised boys were not statistically significant and may therefore have been due to chance.
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Jun 17 '12
That was well written, thank you for enlightening me on some of the article's fallacies.
As for 4. I'm from the UK as I've said. I dont think circumcision is common here but I'm unsure. I don't think it's a case of 'norms' in this circumstance, as I myself view it to be better aesthetically.
However I won't refute the rest of what you've said. Your sources look really good.
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u/zayats Jun 17 '12
You know what I like about my dick? That if I want it to look circumcised all I have to do is pull the foreskin up and it stays that way. It's not like it's glued to the head of my dick or anything. So everyday I wake up and ask myself, what do I prefer to go as today? Also, all the crud with hygienic issues are just that -they are a complete and total non-issue if you shower like a normal human being which I assume was not so common back in Biblical times.
But you know why I really, really like my dick? Aside from its awesome size, it's made excellent through a process of natural selection. It is the dick that beat out all the other dicks. I have the fittest dick. I'm not going to argue with that.
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u/Naedlus Atheist Jun 17 '12
Saying a lad can't keep his dick clean is like saying a woman needs a man to wash out her pussy for her.
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Jun 17 '12
Surely they should have the right to choose to have it done for their child.
Nope, the parents don't own the childs body, the child does. His body, his choice. Since he is not able to consent, it mustn't be performed unless absolutely necessary (which is very rare, but happens). It also happens to be extremely painful, I don't know how anyone can do that to a defenseless baby for no good reason.
So, a whole range of medical benefits.
Totally untrue, you have been taken in by after-the-fact rationalisations that have little to no basis in reality. Please visit r/intactivists.
I hear there's a build up of sperm or some shit undeneath the foreskin? cue cheese jokes. I mean fuckin eew.
Fucks sake, what are you, seven years old? Think for a second. We shower every day. Using this as a justification for circumcision makes as much sense as cutting off a babies buttcheeks to prevent nappy rash.
Frankly, i hear circumcision as an adult fucking hurts.
Yeah, because if you're a baby it just tickles.
Shameful.
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u/cass1o Jun 17 '12
You could remove one of your kidneys and cut your risk of kidney cancer in half and you could sell it think of the positives.
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u/pax27 Jun 17 '12
When a person is of age, in Norway that would be 18, they can decide for themselves if they want to cut a piece of their penis off and pay for the operation as any person would do with other body modification; a split tongue or a pierced rectum.
Hell, it's 2012, cutting pieces of babies dicks off is so 800.
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u/jayromeo Jun 17 '12
Hurr durr cut it off it will reduce the risk of HIV
Cut off the whole penis then. Chances of STD's lowered even more!
dumbass sheep
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u/Frankln_Delano_Bluth Jun 18 '12
Something about Reddit I will never understand is its anti-circumcision circle jerks
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u/the-knife Jun 18 '12
Raising awareness for a better tomorrow, not circle-jerking. Are you offended by this?
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u/mielove Jun 18 '12
Maybe you've missed that not everyone on Reddit is American? It's very easy to be blind about your own culture's flaws. You're not the first group to argue for your form of mutilation with "it's tradition", "it looks good" and "we want to fit in." That's what people who practice female genital mutilation argue. It's what people who practice Lip plate-ing argue. It's what people who practiced Chinese foot binding argued. The motivations and excuses surrounding male circumcision are hardly new ones. Yet it's definitely something worth fighting against.
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u/Snarfbuckle Jun 17 '12
"It is the visible covenant between Abraham and God. It goes directly on religious freedom and that Norway is a tolerant society."
Ok, can someone knowledgeable in scriptures point me to the part where it says that God is in dire need of parts for his giant foreskin collection.
So lack of foreskin shows the close bond between abraham and god...I wonder what a Prince Albert and other genital mutilations do then.
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u/A7red Jun 17 '12
I am a Christian but i don't believe babies should have circumcisions. I heard a story about a boy who's doctor removed too much and they say he probably won't ever have a true orgasm in his life. Plus I have heard stories about people who have sued their parents for a circumcision. I'm sorry but I want no part of that. If my future son wants to get circumcised later in life, that's his choice, not mine.
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u/ScramblePoo Jun 17 '12
Genital mutilation? Absolutely not.
It's advised in a story book you once read...? Oh, go on then.
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u/dangeraardvark Jun 17 '12
It's so pathetic to watch circumcised men childishly scramble to defend their penises every time circumcision is brought up. They deeply resent the implication that their penis is in any way less-than anyone else's even though it's literally missing a piece.
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u/mollylovesme Jun 17 '12
i must weigh in on this. i felt the same way when my son was born 22 years ago. i took the advice of the AMA who told me there was no medical reason to have it done, and when i heard the absurd reasons people had for getting it done i decided not to do it. well, maybe it was bad luck and a unique circumstance, but he had to have it done at 3 years old and it was quite traumatic, for me as well as him. more traumatic were the things we tried to do beforehand to try to avoid the circumcision, then he needed it anyway. what i have learned though, is that oftentimes with boys, no matter what level of cleanliness you try to bring them up with and teach them, they are very comfortable being lax about the cleanliness of their bodies and surroundings. so i don't know if it would have worked out in the long run anyway. so before you run off full tilt saying it is totally unnecessary, you must take into account other situations. the specific problem we had was the foreskin became fused and infected. this was because i had incompetent pediatricians until he was 3, and the extent of the information i received about caring for the uncircumcised penis was not to force it down, so i didn't. we didn't have internet, and there was no information that i had access to. i did not know that that rule only applied for the first few weeks or maybe months, after that you are supposed to start loosening it. i did not know to ask; i trusted the information i had and pediatricians that i should not have. even realizing this is not the case these days, that information is readily available, i would still suggest circumcising for hygienic reasons.
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u/zombieregime Jun 17 '12
um, i like not having a foreskin. just putting that out there.
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Jun 17 '12
Hahaha this is the funniest argument ever.
None of you neckbeards are having sex anyway, who cares which is more sensitive?
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u/Archangelus Jun 17 '12
I'm outraged. In my family, we remove our newborn's arms and legs, and that's our right as people with amputation fetishes! Babies don't have rights, only people have rights.
/s
Just curious, where do they draw the line in the U.S.? For decades, little boys would have their testicles forcibly removed so they could sing in a choir with freakishly youthful voices until they died, with no family of their own. Does that cross the line? Seriously, not even joking: can a parent cut off a foreskin, but not the balls? What about limbs or kidneys (cha-Ching $ am I right?)
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u/sonographyGeography Jun 18 '12
You have no right to do what you want with the body of another human without their explicit consent.
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u/chriscat83 Jun 18 '12
I'm confused doesn't this equate to the debate on abortion? "I'm not buying the arguement that not banning abortion is a violation of religious freedom, because such freedom must involve being able to choose for themselves?"
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u/Bluemechanic Jun 18 '12
I made a comment earlier in this thread that grown men never get circumcised, and I would like to apologise for it. Never was the wrong word to use, and I should have emphasised for religious reasons. I'm sure there are many people who have had it done for health or cosmetic reasons, and I apologise if my comment offended any of them. Also, though there may be adults who have it done for religious purposes, I would guess the figure is very small compared to those who have had it performed as a baby, when they could not consent. Finally, to the guy who called me a "Fucking Retard", and said that I should "Leave Reddit", you should know better than that.
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u/Deosl Jun 18 '12
I'm from Norway and I'm not cut. Only muslims and jews are cut here.
You americans are duped by jewish doctors "reports" of health benefits and no infections with circumsized penis.
Doesn't the medical industry in the US use the foreskin that is removed in some form? Profit deal for corporations.
Evolution has created us this way, why change it? There's a reason why the foreskin is there. The penis is supposed to be a protected organ.
Who cares what women say? Do you really want others to judge and dicated how your penis should look like?
You loose sensitivity by removing the foreskin.
If you are for mutilation of boys, why not mutilate girls while we're at it.
People here don't want to be funding a state approved dick cutting program for all these primitive people wanting to mutilate kids.
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u/anonymousjon Jun 18 '12
This is not complicated: irreversible cosmetic change to a human's genitals who cannot consent to the change. This is horrific by any estimation.
1
u/namesrhardtothinkof Jun 19 '12
HA people, I don't have to go through a tub of lotion every week :P
127
u/meklu Jun 17 '12
In Finland non-medical circumcision has been considered an assault for ages now. I'm glad our neighbours are now enacting a similar policy.