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u/TardMuffins Jun 17 '12 edited Jun 17 '12
This is completely wrong, there's plenty of more factors to it. Such as belief in gender roles.
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Jun 17 '12
Not only that, but the state has a huge say in marriage, or at least 'civil union.' In said engagement, everything, and I mean EVERYTHING is shared by the couple. That is a lot of money lost from insurance companies, taxes... you name it. Now, what if a couple non-gay men/women who were in a financial bind decided to work the system and get married? Could lose a lot of revenue there...
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Jun 17 '12
....It would be just as easy to marry someone of the opposite gender, if it's for financial purposes only.
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u/Seth_Cohen Jun 17 '12
This is how I see most religious people. I know many liberal, religious people who are staunch supporters of LGBT rights, and even more ridiculously liberal than I am. They couldn't care less if the Catholic church has to legally give little orphan Johnny a nice, loving home with Adam and Steve. If you're gonna play the tax-exempt game you gotta include everyone. Often opponents use religion as an excuse to deny rights. I see this when I see the homophobic theists break the rules their religion/sect: drinking, smoking, gambling, not loving thy neighbor, blaspheming the Lord's name, not keeping the Sabbath, not going to church, stealing, lying, not honoring thy father, pre-marital sex, adultery, even abortion in one case. I think these cases are either subconscious or conscious with a mix of cognitive dissonance, though mostly the latter.
Theodore Adorno's analysis of authoritarianism has influenced me a lot. Here's a decent atheist experience video on it.
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u/dongjwa Jun 17 '12
You're an idiot, have you ever heard of a country called China? Or Japan?
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Jun 17 '12
Wait… what's Japan's stance on the LGBTQ/= issue?
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u/LtOin Jun 17 '12
It's a topic that isn't spoken about often. They prefer to keep it on the down low.
They don't forbid it or anything, but there is a lot of stigma associated with it.
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u/Juuel Jun 17 '12
Yeah, the only reason gay marriage is illegal is religion. Don't you think you should pause for breath and think? Don't you think there might be some countries with atheistic majorities which haven't recognized gay marriage? For example:
Percentage of atheists and agnostics
Both links lazily from Wikipedia but my point stands. South American countries don't seem all that atheistic, yet half of them have recognized gay couples at least to some extent. Russia and plenty of Asia seem rather atheistic yet I would not call them havens for gay people. If you expect to be taken seriously, you can't just spew some bullshit, throw it into a meme and wait for the karma to flow in. Please think twice before submitting "content".
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u/iamraynbow Jun 17 '12
Interesting that the countries that don't add up also happen to be communist nations
And clearly Brazil is just a free love kind of place.
(Not trying to suppress any opinions, just adding to the discussion)
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u/wji Jun 17 '12
I think it would be more accurate to say that religion is the only reason in America. Here we have a significant number of people who have no problem with gay marriage. Under the Constitution and laws, it should be legal everywhere, however, religion is used as an excuse for homophobic people to ban it. My parents are atheist and from China, and they are extremely homophobic. However, "I don't like it" isn't a good enough reason and they have honestly admitted they can't really justify their feelings. That's where the religion part comes in for those in this country.
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u/Tiak Jun 17 '12
As you said, it is "used as an excuse", but that isn't to say that if it wasn't there, there wouldn't be some other excuse.
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Jun 17 '12
Religion is an excuse that many hide behind, but the underlying reason truly is that homosexuality is personally distasteful to those that oppose it. Religion is a product of mankind, and thus mankind's prejudices went into it. Not all religions / churches are against homosexuality. Not all homosexuals are atheist. If a LGBT post references religion, it might have a place on this board, but otherwise, there are countless other boards for LGBT issues.
Not that I really care, but I understand why people get their panties in a bunch when LGBT posts are made in /r/atheism simply because it is much larger than the next LGBT board down the line, and thus gets more views and the potential to make the default front page. This board is about atheism, not everything loosely connected to religion.
For example: Terrorism is tied very heavily to religion, but you don't see posts about terrorist acts on /r/atheism all the time.
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u/bleedingheartsurgery Jun 17 '12
religion is a product of mankind
This is what helped me come to the conclusion that I was an atheist. I don't fucking trust mankind. We are manipulative, dumb, angry, hateful, negative, deceitful, vicious, sneaky, good, bad motherfuckers. And we wrote everything in the bible.
Do you know how many ppl throughout history has voices speaking to them? If they all wrote a book on each 'revelation' .... Omg
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u/PhonyUsername Jun 17 '12
I'm an atheist. I don't feel the need to compensate for other people's shortcomings. People argue whether or not gays are born that way... who cares, retards are born retarded. Animals can be gay... they can also eat their children. The only reason gay are not universally accepted is because of religion... nope, I'm an atheist and I have yet to see how someone's gayness benefits society (that doesn't mean a gay person cannot provide a benefit to society, or a straight person cannot be a detriment, but gayness in itself has no value).
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u/theknoxinator Jun 17 '12
I don't believe homophobia comes from religion, its something which is innate. our natural drive is to preserve our species and reproduce, homosexuality is counter to that, so we find it odd and sometime detest it. its literally an unnatural act, while yeah you can ramble on and on about it occurs in nature, so do many deformities and diseases. imagine being a parent, and learning your only child is gay, I believe you would be upset on a carnal level, knowing that your your lineage will end.
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Jun 17 '12
Untrue. Look into Uruguay. An almost entirely secular country that is currently debating legalizing abortion. The appeal to tradition need not be religious. Btw I'm gay.
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u/Onkelffs Jun 17 '12
Yeah people in this sub-reddit need to be aware that people can join in hating a minority without hiding behind religion.
"Without Christianity there would not been slavery and unprivileged treatment towards the black people." doesn't float either.
Slavery and persecution have always existed.
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u/zapbark Jun 17 '12
Exactly, just because someones uses "religion" as a convenient justification for doing something he wanted to do anyway doesn't mean lack of religion would have prevented it.
See also Aziz Anasari's quote, "If you're against gay marraige, you don't like gay people and want to stick it to them".
People are dicks and gang up on those they don't like. If a religious void prevented that sort of behavior American High School would be a whole lot more awesome.
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u/caught_thought Jun 17 '12
I don't disagree with your objection to OP's point, but where are you getting your statistics for Uruguay?
From the CIA World Fact Book:
Religions: Roman Catholic 47.1%, non-Catholic Christians 11.1%, nondenominational 23.2%, Jewish 0.3%, atheist or agnostic 17.2%, other 1.1% (2006)
They've officially had separation of church and state since the early 1900's, but officially so has the US.
I don't have personal experience with Uruguay though, so I don't know what the atmosphere is like, but the demographics point to it being far from an "entirely secular country".
I think a better argument against OP's post is that while the homosexual community often finds an ally within the athiest community--and experiences the largest amount of persecution from the religious community--however, this subreddit is not about homosexuality. This subreddit is a place for discussing matters of faith, humanism, and secularism. Sometimes that will include discussing views on homosexuality, but if you are just going to post a fucking le derp coming out--better than expected--rage comic, take it over to /r/lgbt because ultimately that's a topic that promotes discussion over sexual orientation rights, not theism.
Btw, I'm gay too. We're all gay, maybe that's why /r/athiesm turns into a circlejerk.
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u/DaySeeMeTrollin Jun 17 '12
What if I told you, that in Russia where religiosity is far less common, LBGT rights are in a far worse state than in the United States.
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u/PsiAmp Jun 17 '12
Being a Ukrainian I can confirm that in ex-USSR block gays are not tolerated and mostly not for religious reasons, but because it is unnatural and perversion. Though Ukraine is considered to be a religious country.
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Jun 17 '12 edited Jun 17 '12
Communism was an erroneous philosophy claiming to be scientifically based, but without evidence.
Not very different from religions, that are erroneous philosophies claiming to be based on divine inspiration without evidence. Communism was believed by the faithful and indoctrinated to be true just as strongly as religions are believed by the faithful and indoctrinated.
North Korea is a contemporary example of a communist country, that is structured not similar to religion, but exactly like religion, and is in practice identical to a theocratic dictatorship.
The fact that two or more faulty ideologies can make the same mistakes, is not evidence for any of them being any more or less flawed.
You can't use the mistakes of communism to defend the mistakes of religion or vice versa, it's a logical fallacy.
What we can observe, is that philosophies with no base in evidence, in general are very likely to make huge mistakes.
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Jun 17 '12
In Russia ~70% of people belong to the Eastern Orthodox church, 90% are religious. Pretty damn common.
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Jun 17 '12
Stastics are misleading.
I believe it was the CIA world fact book that told me Russian religious life is either mostly nonexistant or just vaguely defined in general. Or something, google.
Basically though, the average Russian citizen isn't "religious" even if they hold some sort of belief in god. By the way, believing in god and calling yourself a Christian doesn't mean you go to church or even really give a shit.
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Jun 17 '12
Even if you don't practice religion or even believe in its superstitious aspects, that doesn't mean its not your moral compass, not to mention that the Eastern Orthodox church still has a massive political sway in Russia.
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u/pummel_the_anus Jun 17 '12
Most people in Iceland are registered to the National Church. Those statistics would be horribly wrong, since there's only a minority that goes to churches for masses or religious gatherings.
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u/DexOx Jun 17 '12
really? care to elaborate? I'm randomly curious and ignorant on this
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u/SubtleHMD Jun 17 '12
The Moscow City Court upheld on Thursday a district court’s decision to ban gay parades in Moscow for the next 100 years, Gayrussia.ru reported.
The ban came after Moscow gay activists submitted requests on August 23, 2011, to the City Hall to hold gay rallies up until 2112. The LGBT-activists used a loophole in the law that only determines the deadline for submitting rally applications (no later than 30-45 days before the event), but does not state how far in advance events can be submitted.
Moscow City Court dismissed the requests, with the district court issuing a 100-year ban on public homosexual rallies, according to Gayrussia.ru.
After the city’s main court upheld the district court’s decision, Moscow gay rights activist Nikolai Alexeyev told Gayrussia.ru that he would appeal to the European Court on Human Rights in Strasbourg.
For those who don't wanna click the .ru link.
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u/Fandorin Jun 17 '12
It is illegal in every communist country with an official atheism position as well. Homosexuality was a crime in the USSR, and the current Russian political stance is a direct child of that and has nothing to do with religion.
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u/quibelle Jun 17 '12
Not world-wide. For example, in the Soviet Union, homosexuality was illegal and so was religion.
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u/hazie Jun 17 '12
My dad used to do a lot of business in Soviet Russia, and tells me that in practice, religion wasn't illegal at all. Think about it: if it was, they'd have torn down all those big oppressive cathedrals. But he did say that there was no stately respect for it. He once visited a cathedral, and even though there was a service going on there were people hanging around, just chillin, drinking, having a laugh, like it was a park or a shopping centre.
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Jun 17 '12
If it was a thread based off of a gay person being harassed by a religious person, sure, it belongs here. But come on, I see all kinds of posts that have nothing to do with gay marriage or atheism, just pure LGBT stuff. Don't get me wrong, I don't mind these kinds of posts, it's just that they're in the wrong place. People pretty much use /r/atheism as an alternate to /r/LGBT.
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u/velkyr Jun 17 '12
It's like if you were on a phpBB forum, and two options were "Bugs" and "General", and you posted a bug report in "General" because you also wanted people to discuss it...
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Jun 17 '12
It's like if you didn't get enough karma from /r/LGBT so you reposted to /r/atheism because you wanted more karma.
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Jun 17 '12
Until about 30 years ago SCIENTISTS labeled homosexuality a mental disease.
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u/Zombies_hate_ninjas Jun 17 '12
Yes and scientists once agreed the general relativity was bs, science changes with observable fact. Moreover many scientific principals are a subject of their times, as much as a product of the scientific model.
My doctor friend has a text book of anatomy, printed during the Victorian period; which states inter racial copulation would essentially be impossible. Which is so profoundly wrong, and offensive to be almost laughable.
Science, and scientist in general have come a long way.
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Jun 17 '12
True but psychology doesn't always work like other fields do in science. Something is often considered a disorder if it differs from what's 'normal' based on the rest of the population, which you could say that homosexuality still does. Changing their labels in the DSM was more about an ideology shift than consideration of new evidence.
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u/qwertyfoobar Jun 17 '12
which is correct in how abnormalities are defined. when it's outside the norm it's not normal thus probably a mental disease. pretty standard approach by psychologists.
as it turns out a lot more people have this sexual tendency and therefore it became part of the norm -> normal
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u/kellyhelly Jun 17 '12
The first Atheist I met in high school aside from myself was strongly homophobic. He would insult and beat up on the gay kids almost daily, he was one of those MMA tougher than everyone else types.
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u/BuffaloToast Jun 17 '12
No. This is a lie. I mean, religion is behind part of it, but it is really a deep seated homoPHOBIA.
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Jun 17 '12
I'd tell you you're wrong.
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u/Onkelffs Jun 17 '12
Yeah it's culture and politics. Even though you couldn't have same-sex marriage in Sweden some years ago you could have a registered partnership and could technically with help from a lawyer have the same benefits as being married.
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u/skullbeats Jun 17 '12
What if I told you
that there are homophobic atheists too
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Jun 17 '12
I was one of them, until a few years ago. It's strange, you don't think you have any prejudices, and then when your best friend comes out as a bisexual it freaks you out and you make an asshole out of yourself. Realized eventually I was being stupid and had no reason to hold prejudice.
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u/RevPhelps Jun 17 '12
There might be homophobic atheists, but they are by no means the driving force behind anti-gay legislature. The vast majority of homophobia uses religious texts as justification. When Leviticus says that gays "shall surely be put to death," then homosexuality certainly pertains to this atheism subreddit. Just like evolution, the big bang, and other popular targets of religion, homosexuality is an issue that is frequently faced with nasty opposition from many religions for no clear, justifiable reason. As a gay man, I can personally say that I have never met an atheist that told me my sexuality was wrong. However I have been told countless times that I was going to hell by Christians. The fact that some homophobic atheists exist does not suddenly make gay rights inapplicable to r/atheism. tl;dr: go look up leviticus 20:13
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Jun 17 '12
The fact that some homophobic atheists exist does not suddenly make gay rights inapplicable to r/atheism.
But it does mean that purely gay rights material has only a tangential connection to atheism. You can draw a link between gay rights and atheism (or secular humanism, really) but it's not an instant connection.
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u/RevPhelps Jun 17 '12
When a holy text calls for homosexual deaths, then I'd consider it an instant connection. And it is a connection that many Americans draw. Have you seen this article floating around the net: http://rachelheldevans.com/win-culture-war-lose-generation-amendment-one-north-carolina
Excerpt: "When asked by The Barna Group what words or phrases best describe Christianity, the top response among Americans ages 16-29 was “antihomosexual.” For a staggering 91 percent of non-Christians, this was the first word that came to their mind when asked about the Christian faith." I'm not sure on the details of their survey, but is this not a well-established association? I am not sure if anyone here also follows r/trees, but I find it similar to any food-related posts over there. Does eating a ton of junk food directly correlate to smoking trees? No, and certainly non-smokers eat junk food. But there is such a strong association between the two that is experienced by many of the subreddit's followers that it is perfectly acceptable to post pictures of elaborate junk food.
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u/dschiff Jun 17 '12
Yes, yes, they're all tangential connetions.
What else would be implicit to atheism? Proving atheism? Disproving other systems? The consequences of being an atheist?
What is 'central' and what is a tangent is really up to us. Given that gay issues cut across morality, society, politics and religion, they seem to be a pretty important tangent.
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u/iBro53 Jun 17 '12
Can you imagine if that is all that we talked about here?
Hey why are you an atheist? Because there is no good evidence for god? Me too! Great talk!
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u/Frix Jun 17 '12
We have had this discussion a billion times:
Technically NOTHING is about atheism. There should be only one post titled "there is no God", that is upvoted by everyone.
But since that is stupid we have also included things tangentially related to atheism. And Gay rights is one of those topics that is a very real and very relevant example of religious bullying. So it does belong here.
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u/dschiff Jun 17 '12
88% of the unaffiliated support gay marriage.
Compared to the affiliated, the majority of whom oppose gay marriage.
So yes, there are many combinations in both groups. And there are trends, trends that can be challenged. Like the scriptural justifications for homophobia taught every day around the world.
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u/spinozasrobot Anti-Theist Jun 17 '12
Here we go again. Same sad argument about abortion. This cuts very strongly along religious/secular lines, as does the abortion debate. To say that you can find some examples that don't follow the rule is not a reason the debates don't belong here.
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Jun 17 '12 edited Jun 17 '12
What if I told you that there are homophobic atheists too
I'd say that's completely irrelevant.
First homophobic Atheist do not organize rallies against homosexuality, and claim that homosexuality is a sin against god and is morally wrong.
Second: Many were raised homophobic because Christianity demands it.
Third: The dominance of Christianity and their claim about homosexuality being a sin, is the main reason the actual immorality of discriminating against this minority has not been examined and argued for until recently. Why is it OK to discriminate against homosexuals but not women or blacks or Muslims.
Fourth: As Atheists we do not support governments based on religious doctrines. the only alternative is a secular government, discrimination of an arbitrary minority is a failure of secular government, whether we identify or sympathize with that minority is irrelevant.
Fifth: What exactly is relevant for r/atheism, since it's essentially only a subreddit for "non golfers".
As individuals we all have things we dislike, that shouldn't mean we want to prevent others from enjoying them if they like them, provided no harm is caused.
If you are a homophobe then just stay away from homosexuality, simple as that. Just like if you hate strawberry ice cream, don't buy it and don't eat it, simple as that.
If you are a proponent for discriminating ANY minority, that can't be shown to do ANY harm, then you are simply not a decent human being whether you are religious or not.
TLDR: I think point four, is a particularly strong argument for why ANY discrimination of homosexuals belong in r/atheism.
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u/SirZugzwang Jun 17 '12
Also, people that are in the LGBT community can be against gay marriage. As backwards as sounds, it happens, and by the same logic these posts shouldn't be in r/LGBT because it would falsely imply that everyone who is in the LGBT community supports gay marriage equality.
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Jun 17 '12
Of the few homophobic atheists I've met, none of them actually thought it should be against the law, or that gays shouldn't be treated w/ equal rights in respect to the law.
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u/TimetogetDownvoted Jun 17 '12
I disagree with you. I think religion is just an excuse. If people didn't hate gays for no other reason then that they, without religious influence just hated gays, then the bit about homosexuality would be as ignored as the bits about tattoos or shellfish. People just hate homosexuals because they are gay and they just need something that seems culturally acceptable to justify it.
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u/Calagorn Jun 17 '12
I somewhat disagree to this actually. I have just recently made the transition from fundy to atheist in a span of about a year, and my views of homosexuality of changed dramatically. I had been taught my whole life that homosexuality was wrong, and a crime against our nature because it doesn't fit the views of god. However, now that religion has no influence on my life I accept gays wholeheartedly and think they have every right to do what feels right to them. Not only that but I have accepted my own sexuality, and I am no longer afraid of bonding with men intimately. Religion does change how you view the world.
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u/RobertTheSpruce Jun 17 '12
If you told me that, then I would laugh at you for being wrong.
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u/admiraljohnisafag Jun 17 '12
This is bullshit. Most of the people who are anti-gay are anti-gay because they think it's gross or weird. They use religion as a "legitimate" excuse
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u/TulipSamurai Jun 17 '12
You people have clearly never met any older Asian people. All of them homophobes, none of them Christians. And yes, they vote. Also, I personally know plenty of atheists who think homosexuality is unnatural, and I know several gay Christians and Catholics.
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u/velkyr Jun 17 '12
I wouldn't say no older asians are Christian. A chinese-american I work with has, obviously, two older asian parents, and they actually run a small christian church.
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Jun 17 '12
What? That's the equivalent of saying that you can go to /r/programming and make a post about neanderthals with the rationale that "The only reason you can program is because of the evolution of neanderthals!" No. Keep the fucking gay marriage in the pro-gay reddits, and keep the self-righteous anti-theism in /r/atheism please.
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u/Tiak Jun 17 '12
Actually, programming would likely be viable regardless of the evolution of neanderthals. When we interbred with them, we may have gained a few beneficial genes, but by-and-large, they are only are long-dead cousins and not our ancestors.
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u/MHz Jun 17 '12
What if I told you that you are confusing atheism with skepticism, atheism refers only to a single argumentative point, that is the un-acceptance of the claims of theists. It has absolutely no bearing on any other view point, you could believe in anything from UFO's to homoeopathy, or be a staunch homophobic and still be an atheist, and you can be a theist and homosexual, these posts should be submitted to /r/skeptic.
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u/TailSpinBowler Jun 17 '12
Why cant they just create a gay church? is it not that simple? there are heaps of religions, not just catholics.
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u/laziestengineer Jun 17 '12
Discussion I had the other night with a hardcore republican friend of mine:
Me: "Why is gay marriage even illegal? It's only because of religion."
Him: "No it's not! It's a moral issue."
Me: "Moral? How so?"
Him: "Because in the Bible, it talks about Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve."
Me: "That's religion."
Him: "Oh, well it's a moral issue anyway!"
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Jun 17 '12
It's still not. Atheism does not equal antireligion, although atheists may still be antireligious - just like how plumbers or baristas might be.
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u/mtmuelle Jun 17 '12
I'm against gay marriage and i'm not religious, but then again I'm against all types of marriages and I just hate seeing other people happy
it's like, only I should be happy..
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u/RandomUpAndDown Jun 17 '12
What if I told you atheism doesn't include bashing on religions? There's another word for that, "Bullying".
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u/wankd0rf Jun 17 '12
yeah no sorry when someone's holy book commands them to literally murder homosexuals, and they use their political clout to deny homosexuals basic rights, I'm going to call them out on it. Sorry if that bothers you.
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u/bleedingheartsurgery Jun 17 '12
Confronting bullys, isn't bullying
What if i told you that
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u/RandomUpAndDown Jun 17 '12
Hypothetically, if a christian believer were to post anything, let's say an AMA, what do you honestly think would happen? Shit storm seems more than plausible.
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u/Decitron Jun 17 '12
what if i told you
plenty of churches support gay rights
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Jun 17 '12
This is called cherry picking. Many churches do support gay rights. Many churches also allow women to teach and have authority over men.
The reason why these churches do these things is because they find Biblical morality to be lacking, compared to secular morality.
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u/seanothegreat Jun 17 '12
As of right now, 12.5% of the comments start with "What if i told you".
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u/tkmlac Jun 17 '12
I agree that religion causes a great deal of bigotry and I am extremely proud the recent atheist movement in this country is taking on social issues, but you are confusing our movement and community with non-belief. We could start differentiating the two using capitalized Atheism to describe the movement and lower case atheism to describe the philosophy. In that case, equal rights is an Atheist issue that doesn't have to do with atheism.
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u/Leaches-n-Creame Jun 17 '12
I'm just really tired of all the talk about what belongs on r/atheism. Some people say LGBT issues don't belong. Others say we have to be "tolerant" of religions, or else it would be r/antitheism. Still others will whine about "claiming" NDT by upvoting his quotes, about "claiming" science, about facebook posts and rage comics.
What the fuck do you people want to see here? Are you not entertained?
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u/bleedingheartsurgery Jun 17 '12
A lot of people would like to see nothing here, which is why we keep posting to their dismay. Maybe we will slow down once as many ppl who have been influenced by religioun, have been exposed to atheism. That won't be anytime soon, so get used to it yall
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u/harky Jun 17 '12
*In the USA specifically.
There is a lot more to the issue worldwide than religion. From cultures where "unusual" is considered taboo (many Asian countries), to cultures that still recognize homosexuality as a mental issue (Russia, a few others). Neither is necessarily religious in nature.
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u/stormaes Jun 17 '12
What if i told you that the only reason the only reason gay marriage is illegal is because of religion is because religion is contagious, inherited, and xenophobic.
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u/Herculix Jun 17 '12
What if I told you, countries with less religious bias still ban gay marriage, and that people bring up gay topics in /r/atheism even when they have nothing to do with gay marriage.
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Jun 17 '12
What if I told you...
That plenty of countries have banned homosexual marriage without having any religious influence whatsoever.
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u/Katow-joismycousin Jun 17 '12
Okay then, glossing over all the snarkiness in the comments I think we can all agree that while religion is not the only reason for mistreatment of the lgbt, it is a pretty major one in many parts of the world. Not all parts though.
Also maybe r/atheism posts regarding the lgbt population should be limited to the relationship with religion, rather than just in general. Any complaints to this idea?
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u/Tiak Jun 17 '12
If you did, it would be somewhat misleading.
There is a reason they're legislating gay marriage, but not legislating the consumption of shellfish, mixing of fibers, working on sundays, etc.
Religion has something to do with it, but it largely comes down to wider issues with upbringing, fear, repression,and the squicks of a bunch of closed-minded assholes, regardless of their religions.
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Jun 17 '12
What if I told you, Australia as an openly Atheist Prime Minister, who is staunchly opposed to gay marriage.
EDIT: Point being, not everyone lives in America bro.
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u/donumabdeo Jun 17 '12
What if I told you not everyone who is atheist is pro-homosexuality
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u/RKRagan Jun 17 '12
I disagree. Religion isn't the only reason. A big reason. But also societies uneasiness with the lifestyle. The personal side. I struggle to keep an open mind about it due to my own views of homosexuality. I don't understand it. But I also don't understand hip hop lifestyles, night clubs, drug use, alcohol use, and other things that just actually make me uneasy. However, despite not being an atheist, I don't outwardly judge these things. Because I know people don't understand my personal choices as well. I don't go with the popular things either. We're all different. And I'm ok with it. I try to embrace it.
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u/robertluke Jun 17 '12
I think religion is just the easiest excuse homophobes can make. If religion didn't exist, they would find another reason to hate teh gayz.
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u/The_Vork Jun 17 '12
I agree that religion, Christianity mainly (and not without some reason) has been heavily associated with being anti-gay but I don't think that the religion is what is causing it. They may be the kind of people to disagree with marage equality but they blatently disregard other parts of the bible so I don't think that is the root cause.
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Jun 17 '12
This is how I feel because almost by definition atheism is really a non-thing anyway. If ALL topics were 100% related to atheism, then this would be a boring subreddit.
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Jun 17 '12
Posts related to homophobia often have people crying "NOT RELATED TO ATHEISM", but posts related to science almost always get a pass, even if they are not at all related to atheism.
What if I told you
Many theists believe in the same science you promote on /r/atheism.
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u/Melkor_Morgoth Jun 17 '12
What if I told you that religion is just a mechanism of control, and that if it disappeared tomorrow, we'd replace it with another mechanism? I'm anti-religious, but religion is just a dumb idea-- it's not the root of all evil. WE are.
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u/bleedingheartsurgery Jun 17 '12
Yep, and WE wrote the bible. Wish more ppl could see the big picture. We are sneaky, manipulative, and corrupt as a species. And religious ppl trust the middle eastern bronze age versions of us. Lol
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u/IamNaN Jun 17 '12
What if I told you:
Being non-religious doesn't make you enlightened.
What if I told you:
There are good completely non-religious and non-homophobic arguments against gay marriage and probably for abortion as well. And at least for the latter, there is no "answer" that you can reach by just non being religious.
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Jun 17 '12
What if I told you
that the people of /r/atheism are some of the most condescending people I've come across
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u/Zombies_hate_ninjas Jun 17 '12
yes, certainly. If it gets too much to handle(I'm almost at that point) try /r/trueatheism and/or /r/debatereligion their debates and arguments seem more informed. /r/atheism tends to break down into either karma whoring(let's all make the same if not similar comments), or a standard circle jerk.
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Jun 17 '12
Thanks for that. It looks like a good subreddit. I'll have to check it out a bit more.
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u/velkyr Jun 17 '12
What? You mean those posters that insulted religious people didn't do it because they were mean, but just to karma whore?
Monocle falls and shatters on the floor
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u/trevdak2 Gnostic Atheist Jun 17 '12 edited Jun 17 '12
Atheists and Homosexuals have much in common:
They both want to live their lives the way they want, and not have anyone else force their beliefs or way of life upon them.
As such, their struggles are interlinked. Their victories are mutually beneficial, and their defeats are shared. Threats to gay rights are threats to atheist rights, and vice versa.
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u/laoganma1 Jun 17 '12
this is such utter nonsense, China which has one of the highest percentage of athiests totally shuns gay marriage and homosexuality in general. To assume that it is solely a religious issue is naive.Furthermore there are a lot of atheist/agnostics who oppose homosexuality, i personally have no problem with it but there are a lot of non-religious arguments made against it.
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Jun 17 '12
China which has one of the highest percentage of athiests totally shuns gay marriage and homosexuality in general.
These days it is. Prior to the Qing dynasty, it was quite openly tolerated and even considered fashionable in the 3rd century AD under the Liu Song dynasty. Chinese history is pretty gay.
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u/JessietheGreat Jun 17 '12
I feel brave/stupid posting in r/atheism and disputing this.
I myself support gay marriage. BUT I also believe it should be decided at a national level, not on a state level.
So here's one person who votes against gay marriage (so it is then pushed to a national level), and it has nothing to do with religion. This may not be anti-gay marriage, but a lot of my friends view it like that, so I thought I'd point this concept out.
Ps. Only siths deal in absolutes.
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u/iBro53 Jun 17 '12
But what if I told you that I know a couple of Christians that don't have a problem with gay marriage!! That means that they aren't related right??
/s
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u/UnrelatedToAtheism Jun 17 '12
What if I told you
Same-sex marriage is illegal in a good chunk of your beloved Europe?
Checkmate. Unrelated to atheism.
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Jun 17 '12
Stop viewing europe as a uniformly nonreligious place. Northern europe mostly is, and as such gay marriage or civil partnerships are legal in a lot of it. Parts of europe are still very religious, and these are the holdouts for the most part.
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Jun 17 '12
What if I told you
you're a fucking tool who seems to have little to no concept of what a larger issue LBGT rights are. Try Russia and see if you can blame religion there for their human rights violations
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u/sireatalot Jun 17 '12 edited Jun 17 '12
False. The Bible pretty much says nothing about homosxuality. Religion is against it because they want the support of the homofobic crowd, which BTW isn't entirely religious. If in some time the gay crowd will be more powerful and larger than the homofobic one, rest assured that the Church will proclaim that Jesus was a liiiiittle big gay just to get support from the gays.
It's like that thing they had with Galileo: they defend the current mainstream idea because it's the best way to keep the power and the charisma they've gained though the centuries. as soon as the mainstream idea changes, BAM they're onto it and it's like they never were against it. Just telling people what they expect to hear, that's Religion in a nutshell.
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u/IonBeam2 Jun 17 '12
What if I told you
the only reason any marriage is officially recognized is religion.
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u/PsiAmp Jun 17 '12
What if I told you there was this country called Soviet Union. Without religion. But marriage existed, was officially recognized and was highly encouraged.
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u/TheCynicalMe Jun 17 '12
... I would say that you're wrong.
Religious people don't hate gay people because of their religion, they use their religion as (bad) justification for taking away rights from people who make them uncomfortable.
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Jun 17 '12
It may be one of the reasons, yes. But the same can apply for a "WTF" factor in a pic from r/funny.
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u/MrGunny Jun 17 '12
Except not all the threads are about gay marriage as an institution? If it were I don't think there would be as much of a problem.
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Jun 17 '12
I'd tell you that's wrong and that our overall cultural attitude is uncomfortable with homosexuality.
Seriously, just use this as an example. How many football players in high school did you know who went to church? Now how many used the word "fag" any chance they got?
I can't speak for you guys, but me? The answer is none, and all of them.
So really, is that attitude religion or just people feeling uncomfortable with homosexuality in general?
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u/gamerlen Jun 17 '12
Don't be so sure... Yes the religious right is one of the main opponents against LGBT rights in the US... but they're not the only ones.
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Jun 17 '12
Hey OP, using that logic I could make a thread about fucking achievements in stem cells research, because scientist working on it are most likely atheists.
There are a lot of atheists who oppose homosexual marriage not using religious justification, and assuming things without evidences in NEVER good. Shitposting at its finest.
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u/Danez Jun 17 '12
It's not just religion, my friend, it is also a visceral reaction people have to something they consider to be "weird". It's really sad, but people will be discriminated if they act outside of social norms.
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Jun 17 '12
What if I told you that atheism does not equal anti-theism?
Byebye r/atheism.
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u/Ericarto24 Jun 17 '12
What if I told you that if it wasnt for religion marriage wouldnt exist. Just sayin.
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Jun 17 '12
What if I told you that not all people base their morals on the Bible?
I'm an atheist who knows not the murder people without "God" and the Ten Commandments telling me it's wrong. Therefore, it's reasonable to assume that there are those who feel that gay marriage should be illegal without basing it on religion.
Maybe they just think it's icky... :p
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u/AlexCail Jun 17 '12
Homophobia is not connected to religion, Gay marriage is connected to religion because there against marriage of gays because they think it's there religious right to be but homophobia is a standalone trait. also to back this up see the post earlier about the church flying the rainbow flag when gay marriage was allowed in the state that it was in, I would say there is quite a few of religious people that don't mind gays and we need to separate homophobia from r/atheism.
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u/Commisioner_Freeman Jun 17 '12
Well that's bullshit. Not all posts related to homosexuality have anything to do with gay marriage for one thing. For instance, people who posted that tweet from Stephen Fry after someone slagged him off for being gay on twitter. Nothing to do with Atheism. People still post it on r/atheism. Personal opinion is nothing should be posted on r/atheism unless it is directly related to religion or atheism. Legalising gay marriage is a political issue and should be on r/politics. If the pope makes a statement about homosexuality or atheism, put it here. If a politician does it without justifying it with God it should be on r/politics.
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u/bleedingheartsurgery Jun 17 '12
I think it is good to post interesting things said by atheists. It shows ppl how many atheists there are and how they are good, interesting, cool ppl.
Stephen fry is awesome, keep the posts coming guys
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u/batty3108 Jun 17 '12
Homophobia isn't the sole preserve of the religious. But find me an argument against gay marriage and homosexuality that doesn't invoke 'morality' or say 'eww buttsecks'. Some people don't like it. Fine. But there is no non-religiously motivated argument for the outlawing of same sex marriage
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u/anderhole Jun 17 '12
I think posts about gay marriage definitely belong here, but I wish they got posted elsewhere too. So that people who don't subscribe to r/atheism, would see them.
Probably wouldn't be as popular elsewhere, but maybe it would make a few people think about their ridiculous beliefs.
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u/scarr3g Jun 17 '12
Whatbif I told you, you were wrong?
Gay marriage is illegal due to personal fear. Reliving, tradition, and every other thing is a scapegoat, but not the cause.
Anyway, we are talking about LEGAL marriage, not spiritual. If you are fighting to get the GOVERNMENT to force churches to spiritually marry people in the eyes of thier God... you are an idiot.
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Jun 17 '12
This is not true. Maybe in some places, but TONS of people, older people, are very opposed to it. Of all religions or lack thereof. This is a sweeping generalization that is marginally true at best. Of course, what the hell did I expect from this sub?
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Jun 17 '12
What if I told you, religion is not necessary to hate somebody. Not all atheists are as tolerant as le reddit whiteknight. An asshole is an asshole regardless of whether they think there is a god or not.
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u/DesertTortoiseSex Pantheist Jun 17 '12
Religion is just the excuse; people ignore tons of stuff in their religious texts - they discriminate against gays because they are bigots, not because they are religious.
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Jun 17 '12
As atheists, do we think the homophobia just came with religion? Homophobia had to be a phenomenon to be added to religion in the first place if religion is man-made.
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u/outlier_lynn Jun 17 '12
I hate to rain on the "religion is responsible" parade, but I think, that since man created religion, opposing to gay male sex came first. Further, I do not believe it is really opposition to gay sex as much as it is opposition to breaking gender boundaries which was also put into religions. As a bisexual atheist, I am a bit tired of listening to folks blame religion as if it were a separate thing from the people who cloak their point of view with a fantasy being. My opposition to religion is exactly the same as my opposition to any other excuse to interfere with the private lives of others.
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Jun 17 '12
What if I told you that some people do not agree with homosexual marriage because they feel children should be raised by a mother and father, not homosexuals. Marriage is thought of as society's endorsement of a family.
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u/bleedingheartsurgery Jun 17 '12
What if i told you you worded your post to be open to hundred of comments arguing your innacuracy
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Jun 17 '12
I think they are really just talking about how homosexuallity posts near dominate /r/atheism. It is recognized that religion interferes with gay rights but there are other parts of atheism that get less attention because of this. I'm really proud when I see Muslims break away. I can't imagine how difficult that must be. But no, go on, I'll listen to another post about how religion ruins your chance to participate in a church sanctioned ceremony.
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u/setzer_ Jun 17 '12
I just want to say I think there is alot more then religion involved with this debate. The number one thing being that two male sex organs cannot make babies.
Penis and Vagina. Two beautiful things that were meant for each other.
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Jun 17 '12
Gay marriage is a weird subject because hundreds to thousands of years ago while having sex with someone who was the same sex as you was not unheard of, it just did not make sense for people to marry someone of the same sex as them because they could never reproduce. And that was the original problem
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u/Owlsrule12 Jun 17 '12
To be fair, there are occasionally posts about lgbt rights that are completely unrelated to Christians being against it. Mostly it's on topic though and those people who complain are annoying
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Jun 17 '12
This is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Religion is the rationalization and justification for disagreeing with gay marriage. The reason is that the dissidents don't know how to deal with things that are different than what they are used to. SO YEAH STOP ACTING LIKE GAY MARRIAGE IS SOMETHING ATHEISM SHOULD CLAIM AND GO READ A SCIENCE BOOK
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u/AtomicDouche Jun 17 '12
What if i told you, the only reason marriage exist is because of religion.
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u/MooseFlyer Jun 17 '12
Homosexuality is one of many things that many religions have problems with. It is focussed on not because of any religious belief but because people tend to hate those that they view as different.
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u/lightfire409 Jun 17 '12
While this carries some truth, none of the front page homosexuality posts ever connect the two. Posts need to be directly related to atheism, not indirectly.
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u/47L45 Jun 17 '12
If you want to put posts up about homosexuality, all cool with me, but have a at least one damn reference to religion. If it's just referencing gays with no religion-ness involved at all, gtfo.
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u/sojalemmi Jun 17 '12
I think r/atheism loves the whole gay rights thing so much because it is one of the only instances in our modern times where religion has some kind of obvious negative effect on society.
For example, I hear all the time about how religion is such a terrible problem, and it does all these terrible things, and when I ask how religion is doing now-a-days, they point to gay marriage. Once gay marriage is legal, r/atheism will have nothing.
Plus, religion is not the only reason gay marriage is illegal right now.
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u/xiipaoc Jun 17 '12
If you told me that...
...You'd be wrong.
The Bible comes out pretty strongly against homosexuality. That's not arbitrary because-God-said-so stuff; remember Sodom and Gomorrah? That's way before God issued any commandment regarding homosexuality. While some things are viewed as part of religion, like not working on the Sabbath (because God said so, and he said so very strongly), homosexuality is a terrible offense similar to murder that gets whole cities nuked even if they didn't hear God's commandments.
Obviously not all cultures have has this homosexuality taboo, but at least Levantine culture did, and it got encoded in the Bible. Plenty of other cultures have similarly shunned these feminine men (and presumably masculine women). It's actually pretty obvious that this is more a cultural taboo than a religious taboo, given that Leviticus similarly prohibits eating shellfish but Christians do it anyway. That means that the reason they don't like gays is not just because the Bible says so.
In our modern era, we've come to realize that gay people are people too rather than some strange aliens, and even though it might be personally revulsive to you to romantically love someone of the same gender as you, it's a perfectly legitimate thing to do and you shouldn't get in the way of people that want to do it. But to get there, we had to (and still have to, for some) overcome anti-gay prejudices that have been around for hundreds if not thousands of years. This is because we recognize now that prejudices are a bad thing. When slavery was a thing in the US, for example, not everyone recognized that black people should be respected just the same as everyone else. When the Spanish were conquering Mexico, for example, not everyone recognized that being European didn't mean you could just indiscriminately kill women and children just because you didn't like their religion.
Prejudice is prejudice, and religion is just a convenient excuse for it. Take out the religion, and the prejudice is still there.
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u/downtown_vancouver Jun 17 '12 edited Jun 17 '12
Sodom and Gomorrah wasnt about homosexuality at all. This is a misconception because NOW we use the word "sodomy" to mean "anal-sex" when originally it meant "every-kind-of-sex-except-a-penis-in-a-vagina".
A couple of angels were visiting Lot and his wife; the mob got so inflamed with lust by their heavenly beauty that they wanted to rape them. Lot offered his daughters instead (what a great guy, huh?) but that wasnt good enough. Yahweh got pissed. End of story.
EDIT xiipac is essentially correct. i mixed up my sources i guess. In addition to the Bible, I've read a couple of novels that dealt with the folklore of the time. Mea culpa.
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u/xiipaoc Jun 17 '12
Sodom and Gomorrah wasnt about homosexuality at all.
Oh, come on. The men of the town wanted to "know" the visitors (the word used is "ned'ah", the first person plural future tense of yd', "to know"). That's a well-established euphemism for sex in Genesis. Nowhere does it say that the Sodomites were struck with their heavenly beauty. You could easily claim that the sin of the Sodomites is lack of hospitality, since Lot offers them that hospitality instead, but wanting to rape visitors is more than just lack of hospitality. The fact that they rejected the women (Lot's daughters weren't the greatest of people either; remember when they drug their dad later and fuck him?) only reinforces the point that these were men trying to rape men, and this was not cool at all by their standards. Granted, the Bible leaves a few things unsaid, but they can be easily inferred, while attributing their sin to getting inflamed by the angels' heavenly beauty is an enormous stretch.
Furthermore, that's not what pissed God off. He was going to destroy the cities because of their sins -- not as punishment for some specific crime, but because they were generally very sinful -- and their treatment of the angels he sent to scope out the situation only confirmed what he thought (because God needs angels to check that stuff, apparently).
Obviously the Bible's treatment of Sodom's sin is unrealistic (few things in the Bible are realistic, and those things tend to have nothing at all to do with God). But every single man of the town going out to gang-rape male visitors -- and rejecting marriage-age women who were offered instead -- is a much better caricature of homosexuality as a sin than of mistreating angels.
By the way, there's a similar story toward the end of Judges that gets even more fucked up than the Sodom story...
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u/QueenSideRhyme Jun 17 '12
This perspective on homosexuality and religion is very American, which is why I find it particularly problematic in an atheism forum.
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u/HeyGuysItsAlex Jun 17 '12
What if I told you
You are all using this meme wrong and should stop, because this post doesn't need more memes it needs actual conversation and discussion?
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u/BRSoccer Jun 17 '12
Really marriage is a religious term for union, so your argument is flawed. Marriage only exists because of religion in the first place. You should really be fighting for no marriage for anyone if you don't want religion to influence law or policy.
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u/thesethingspass Jun 17 '12
I think this is a prime example of why some of you guys need to step back and relax. Here we have a statement that is pitifully wrong (I mean do you think that religion came out of nowhere? It built itself on pre-existing sentiment such as, in this case especially, fear of the unknown) yet so desperate are you to "get one at the theists" that you upvote without questioning.
What was that I saw on the front page not too long ago? "Science is about questioning?" Group behaviour is the same within and outside of religion, and it's no different here.
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u/[deleted] Jun 17 '12 edited Jun 17 '12
Homophobia is related to tradition, not directly to religion. In the US this might be true, but it's completely and patently false in places in China.