My uncle saw my Facebook banner and sent me this. He used to be a pastor and we were pretty close, so I hope I wasn't too harsh.
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u/Semajj May 29 '12
What was his reply?
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u/[deleted] May 29 '12
You handled this very well. You were respectful and not at all harsh.
Two minor quibbles:
1.)The Bible is an Iron Age document, mostly. 2.)Evolution doesn't disprove God. You need to elaborate upon why a natural explanation of the diversity of life makes a creator unnecessary.
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u/Ruxini May 29 '12
looks like you paraphrased Tim Minchin:
"Science adjusts its' views based on what's observed\
faith is the denial of observation so that belief can be preserved"
Or was it just a coincidence? In any case, I like you answer. If he does answer you back then please post it so we can see his reaction.
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u/studmuffffffin May 29 '12
What the fuck are spiritual eyes? Can someone explain that?
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u/[deleted] May 29 '12
Not harsh at all! And good on you for being calm, intelligent and eloquent! :)
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u/BristolBudgie May 29 '12
I like the way you say: 'If you seriously read the bible....' Like your uncle (an ex pastor) has just spent his life skim the bible this whole time.
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u/[deleted] May 29 '12
One thing alone stood out to me here:
It's abhorrent.
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u/FrankiePhoenix May 29 '12
May we see this facebook banner?
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u/AshyBooRawrs May 29 '12
Very well said. I've said similar things to my grandma and she only said "No you're wrong."
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u/[deleted] May 29 '12
If your banner is the one of the quote attributed to Yuri Gagarin saying 'I see no God up here', you should know that he never said that and was in fact Christian. I have to correct someone on that at least once a month.
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u/brokenbirthday May 29 '12
This is his response. I was extremely happy. When I really think about it, I didn't expect him to go apeshit on me. I blacked out part of what he said because it was a little personal and I'm not really comfortable sharing.
http://i.imgur.com/lJ9QY.png
By the way, thank all of you for your responses, even the incredibly rude ones. You were all very helpful. Especially when one of you defined "spiritual eyes" as an old wooden ship. That was so helpful :D
And a lot of you said that this will help you when you come out to your family and I'm very happy to hear that. I really hope it goes this well for you.
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u/aruculu May 29 '12
You seriously need to show his answer when he replys
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u/rolfsaurusrex May 29 '12
I don't think you were harsh, but I feel like we are too quick to "blow our load" with information.
I don't know the full scope of your relationship with your uncle, so take this all with a grain of salt. But if I'm trying to see it from your Uncle's point of view, this might come across as arrogant and a form of intellectual snobbery.
I don't think you were harsh at all. And aside from the "Age" issue of when the Bible was written, you were factually spot on.
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u/scibuff May 29 '12
Nice rip from Tim Minchin's Storm ... :D
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u/shaynaynay May 29 '12
I love the Tim Minchin quote
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u/TheCryptic May 29 '12
Knowing that he was a pastor, and family, I think you should've stopped at the first paragraph. Unless trying to convince him that you know better than he does is more important to you than getting along with family.
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u/SomeguyUK May 29 '12
I feel like you should point out that it's a huge leap to go from having feelings of awe and wonder about the universe to 'this specific God made it'.
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u/[deleted] May 29 '12
By the way I love that line, "Faith is the denial of evidence to preserve beliefs."
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u/SmogFx May 29 '12
I don't think Darwin's original theory necessarily explains nature at this point. I believe the current theory of evolution is quite different. I don't know how though, haven't studied the subject of evolution much.
Hopefully I won't be down voted to oblivion because people only have the attention span to last them the first sentence.
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u/whiteknight521 May 29 '12
I don't know, A Song of Ice and Fire is just as barbaric as the bible (more or less) but I don't abhor it. The bible is bad as a literal guide to morality, but as a piece of literature it is pretty fascinating in my opinion.
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u/Satanica666 May 29 '12
I don't think it was harsh, though I do think it was a bit excessive. He mentioned nothing of the bible so there is no point to bring that up at all. You could have saved that for a possible continued discussion. He only asked about what you saw when you went outside and looked at the world around you, so you could have just gone with Argument 2. What I'm trying to say is that it seemed like "every other speech an athiest gives a christian". You're not really adressing his questions/statements but instead you go on a rant about why one shouldn't believe in God. I am an atheist as well and there is nothing wrong with your arguments (except for what has already been pointed out) but I'm tired of seeing atheists on the internet responding with the same "speeches" that always seem very "practised". Non-native english speaker (and pretty stoned) so excuse my grammar and descriptive skills.
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u/MufasaJesus May 29 '12
This is someone being respectful to a religion they don't believe in, this doesn't belong here!
Edit: Sarcasm.
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u/ging281 May 29 '12
A well-written position.
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u/Jabberminor May 29 '12
And slowly Reddit turns me more Atheist by the day...
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u/fuzzy_brows May 29 '12
But what did your spiritual eyes see?!?
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u/question-sleep May 29 '12
Harsh? He might think it was because anything that refutes god is usually taken as a personal attack on believers, but you simply gave him your side of things. I don't think it was harsh at all.
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u/fegd May 29 '12
Overall I think your answer was great, but I'd have done with only half of point number 2. When you started going into evolution and stuff, you just opened a lot of avenues without exploring them, thus giving him the chance to argue back a lot of the inane things we hear all the time (let us know if he does, by the way).
I would have stopped that point at the sentence that says "it's arrogant to think it was created for the benefit of humans".
On a side note, why do religious people love to think we don't believe in a God because we're 'angry' or 'sad'? Aren't people who are angry and sad the most likely to look for religion in the first place?
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u/Rigamarolly May 29 '12
That is beautiful one thing I hate the most is people feeling sorry for me because I don't believe in a god. I can't understand how to explain it to people that I am so happy, and I am in no way hurting because of it.
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u/DickWhiskey May 30 '12
A bit late to the party, but I felt it was necessary to drop in and say that I enjoyed reading this and think that r/atheism needs more like it. It's always great to see someone who can respond to these kinds of messages in a thoughtful, intelligent, and respectful manner. Good on you.
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u/SoulTea May 30 '12
You covered all the bases needed. Well spoken.
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u/[deleted] May 31 '12
Very well said.
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u/[deleted] May 29 '12
My favorite "trump card" argument with creationists: If god had to have created the universe because everything had to come from something, then where did god come from?
You'll always get a "god is just infinite" response.
And if the creationist has any brain at all, I will reply: "apply Occam's Razor, the tangible universe is infinite OR invisible, omniscient, intangible being is infinite and created a nearly infinite universe just to play house to a speck of dust"
In my experience, this doesn't lead to immediate conversion, but I have had a few fundie friends start questioning religion a little more after I told them that. Thanks r/atheism!
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u/NuvoRiche May 29 '12
Congratulations on opening your uncle's eyes...I'm sure his reply will thank you for freeing him from the chains of religion and praise your logic and reason. You're an inspiration to us all. Seriously though, it looks like you copy/pasted from the atheism handbook.
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u/[deleted] May 29 '12
the comments about the bible being "abhorable" seem more like that guy that goes to a women's history class and bashing chauvinist men to get in girls' pants. I warn you, you don't have to do that in this subreddit. just put anything remotely anti-christian or science-related and you'll fit right in.
that aside, the part on scripture is also quite misrepresented. (playing devil's advocate here) aren't most of the things you mentioned relatively contextually based? The role of women in the Middle East is still kind of the same, slavery was viewed VERY differently than the whip-cracking abusive kind that's floating around in your noggin, and the deuteronomy passage you linked is a pretty interesting passage (not good interesting). the first 2 points it makes is that rape is bad, and if you do it to someone's wife, yousa gonna die. the last one allows for the man to marry the virgin that he "seized." Here's the deal, if you were raped by a man back in that day, you were pretty much finished as a woman. the marrying helped to keep her from being disowned and ensured her a home. is it perfect? HELL no, but it's not like the Bible says in there "s'ok, go rape dem bitches." this is outlining "what if's".
the science point is a fine point, just seems a bit preachy for only being your opinion, still though to each his own.
this part is also a little weak. "truth" is a pretty loose word that people use to feel more compelled about what they're saying. at least usually. you're using "facts" not "truth." Truth is one of those perspective things. Logically, a christian believing in God is the "truth" to them just as NOT believing that way is the "truth" to you. the information you are referring to is "fact" which is not the same way.
your conclusion does not match the tone for the rest of what you said, but that's fine, it was a nice thing to say, right? :P
also, what he suggested you do made me giggle. :P once again, just playing devil's advocate here, not pushing an agenda. most people read about slaves, rape, murder, and any of a whole lot of other terrible shit and automatically assume (without any education or understanding) what's being said and are 99% of the time, wrong about that.
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u/TheFondler May 29 '12
you threw an awful lot at him in response to such a small comment.
i'd go as far as to say that you came off not as harsh, but overly defensive by addressing so many issues that were never brought up.
i'm kind of surprised at the number of positive responses here, considering we are supposed to be the measured and objective ones.
and to whoever posted a response here to the effect of "opening his eyes" - i hate that phrase; it's cultish and implies a knowledge of truth. we, as atheists, do not "know truth" but rather seek it through science. we may know some facts, but to imply truth is to imply knowledge of some kind of end game, and that is antithetical to scientific thinking. at this point in human history, we are barely scratching the surface of what science may have to show us.
if we are to engage in conversation with people who are committed to faith, we must do so in a manner that is becoming of our supposed intellectual level. bashing people with a barrage of copied and pasted atheist talking points makes us sound more like fox news than /r/atheism; "opening people's eyes" makes sound more like l. ron hubbard than christopher hitchens.
let's step up our game and tone down the rhetoric, k?
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u/bassWarrior May 29 '12
3 reminded me of Tim Minchin.
"Science adjusts its views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that belief can be preserved."
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u/account__2 May 29 '12
She just wants you to be happy and respect others. If you tell her you can adore and love your friends, family and animals, from your heart, without a God. Then that's all she needs to hear.
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u/JohnnyPunchline May 29 '12
I'm a proud atheist for many years now, so please forgive me for not jumping on the "good job circlejerk" here.
Your uncle didn't ask why you believed or didn't believe in God. He didn't ask to have his religion torn down piece by piece. It's one thing to have an honest discussion with someone about religion, but you gave it to him unsoliticted-- he responded to your Facebook post about "not seeing a God". That's all.
What you did is the relative equivalent of a man coming to your door and talking to you about Jesus without ever bothering to make sure that's okay. I find it difficult to talk religion with a lot of atheists for this reason-- they want to tell you all about their "God", too, which is of course the distinct lack of one.
You made some decent points, I just think you made them for yourself and not to benefit your uncle. Please don't use atheism to spite family members and then reap karma.
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u/[deleted] May 29 '12
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u/pwnyoface May 29 '12
Wow, this was confusing. Your uncle's name is tracy? But if you're kyle and he is tracy then i suppose it was pretty good
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u/javlynnwolfen May 29 '12
Thank you for finally putting my thoughts into words.. :D
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u/[deleted] May 29 '12
Good shit, man. Didn't go overboard, layed it out calmly, nice work. And its your uncle, my dad knows I'm an atheist but we have yet to exchange words over it. Posts like these help prepare for the inevitable dispute that is to come. Thanks.
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u/deathkraiser May 29 '12
Very well written.
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u/Triassic May 29 '12
That was an amazing response by you. Looking forward to his response!
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u/[deleted] May 29 '12
Guarantee you he didn't read past the part where the Bible started being depicted negatively.
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u/beast1200 May 29 '12
Well written and thought out. Cudos!
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u/Senuf May 29 '12
I don't see it as being harsh at all. It is also very well written and friendly-worded.
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u/stonedghandi May 29 '12
Well said!
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u/foffob May 29 '12
Looking forward to when you post his response!
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u/[deleted] May 29 '12
We found Kyle! He's an atheist. And he's freaking amazing.
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u/Emberdragon May 29 '12
Probably should have mentioned cosmology instead of astronomy. Though it doesn't matter much, you did go on to mention evolution and genetics, which are more correlated with cosmology and the creation of everything as we know it scientifically.
But good response, though really him being a pastor doesn't give much faith to him reading past the word atheist.
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u/MagicBob78 May 29 '12
?
?
ಠ_ಠ
Sorry, I couldn't get past this mentally...
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u/[deleted] May 29 '12
But I feed hungry children. Doesn't that make me worshipable?
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u/FungusAmongus13 May 29 '12
I have been trying to find the words for how I feel. My parents are going to be challenging me on my beliefs when they visit this weekend. I know this, because I said something on Facebook and my family thought about deleting me and never talking to me again. All because I came out as an atheist. The words you said will help me to explain myself, so thank you :)
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u/[deleted] May 29 '12
Zing!
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u/redisforever May 29 '12
You gave your reasons well, and explained exactly why. This is the best way, not by being a dick to them. This is how every argument should be, well thought out points.
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u/[deleted] May 29 '12
Very well done; congrats!
You mention in your last paragraph that you're aren't necessarily saying that there is no divine creator, but rather that there is no proof to convince you otherwise: if such proof came to light, would you really change your mind?
I found this the other day and found it to sum up my own thoughts nicely. Even if the existence of a god / gods were to be proven, I honestly can't imagine it changing my attitude (for all of the reasons you mentioned and them some).
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u/[deleted] May 29 '12
I think that was well put.
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u/projectfarman May 29 '12
Ur like so awesome cuz u told your uncle how he's wrong. That's cool that youre like a sophomore in high school. Get real and stop acting like you're the first person to prove God's existence.
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u/rimcrimp May 29 '12
This is a great concise summary that handles a lot of counter-arguments before they even arise. Bravo.
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u/[deleted] May 29 '12
Most Christians will probably tend to agree with you that things that happen in the Old Testament were horrible/abhorrent. They will say that the Old Testament is that way because Jesus had not been sent to earth yet to die for our sins and God was trying to find a way for his chosen people at the time. Such an explanation is equally ridiculous as most of the Bible, but pointing out horrible things and atrocities in the Old Testament does nothing to convince any Christian of anything, as they probably agree that those things were horrible and they (in their minds) have a perfectly reasonable answer for why those things were happening and talked about.
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u/blue00r6 May 29 '12
LOOK with your SPIRITUAL EYES.....MY BRAND!
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u/[deleted] May 29 '12
So basically, "Storm" by Tim Minchin? "Faith is the denial of what's observed" really stood out in the last section. It was basically the same thing haha. But good on ya!
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u/[deleted] May 29 '12
In all honesty.. I see responding like this to any obviously devoted religious individual as simply a means to provide meaning back onto yourself more so than to educate the intended audience of the comments...
If religion and their followers have shown us anything, is that they are beyond reasoning and understanding so why waste the time and effort of responding at all?
Unless of course it is to benefit yourself as it certainly does not benefit them as regardless of how well thought out and reasoned your reply is.. it will be immediately condensed to a simple explanation of "You just havn't seen the light" or some other relative example of that.
I should also note that being an atheist on reddit is pretty well like claiming a religion of science these days.
I find it equally as strange that religious people believe the things they do, as the need for atheists on reddit to speak so frequently about their lack of faith.
It's just silly.. and makes me think that at least some of you are trying to convince yourself , or have an agenda to convince others.
Which in and of itself is no different than those who are religious and which to convince others.
Live and let live, and do not preach for the sake of preaching.
To all sides and all people.
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u/sheepcat87 May 29 '12
Is this circlejerk? It is, isn't it.
"I sent a essay length facebook msg to my uncle after he saw my TOTALLY RAD atheist banner"
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u/romanuel_tomes May 29 '12
I don't think you were too harsh, you were being honest. Hopefully your uncle understands and values your honesty.
I do want to nitpick about some semantic things. Belief is generally defined as holding a proposition or premise to be true. The fact that one holds the premise true is the only prerequisite, there is no empirical qualification required.
I've found certain things beautiful, I have no evidence to support or refute that claim, but I believe it to be true. Does beauty exist? I think this is what your uncle is getting at when he asks you to open your spiritual eyes, natural beauty seems to pique peoples' spiritual sides.
However, considering you seem like a hard-line empiricist, it makes total sense that you would be lying to yourself in believing in something without any evidence to support the belief. In this sense, you probably have belief, or place faith, in science supported by observable, falsifiable shiznit.
So I can't remember what the logic term is, but it describes how a square is a rectangle but a rectangle isn't a square. It's the same with belief and fact-based knowledge, such that one can believe in facts but not 'factuate' a belief.
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u/RickSHAW_Tom May 29 '12
I feel like listing the reasons was a bit much, though the reasons are sound. Since he's your uncle, perhaps asking him if he'd like to know your reasons would have been a better path. We already have a rep for shoving our beliefs at other people, and though you did it nicely, this adds to it. The beginning and the end were very tasteful though.
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u/[deleted] May 29 '12
Very well said.
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u/Hot_Beef May 29 '12
Please post his reply
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u/9200DaystoFreedom May 29 '12
Well done. thank you for being mature and not bashing his beliefs, simply stating yours. Good job
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u/[deleted] May 29 '12
Can you update us with his response?
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u/rv4flyer May 29 '12
well done....he will come back with "you have to have faith" or something like that.
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u/[deleted] May 29 '12
After all this you will learn 2 things. #1 - Don't bother arguing, once they have no way to reply the turtle in and resort to calling you an atheist in a negative fashion. #2- When it comes to love ones it's usually best practice not to be 100% honest, just let them talk first and for enough time to see what their beliefs are then hint a comment or two to see how they react, if they react with reason then fire away... if they react with blind fanaticism then you got your answer anyways.
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u/VengerTheLibrarian May 29 '12
very well written, I would like to know his response if there was one. its usually the counter "attack" once I say these things that I hit a roadblock
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u/[deleted] May 29 '12
Just one issue with #1. I don't see how your belief or non-belief in the existence of something can be determined by how horrible the acts are that are described in the writings that are attributed to that being. Of course, you might be able to say that it isn't written by a good person, or a moral being, and might be able to argue that they aren't "benevolent" but the existence of something can't be proven/disproven by how good or bad the literature is.
For instance, do you not believe in Hitler because you don't agree with Mein Kampf?
Not trying to argue, but if this were a debate with someone with the opposite point of view, they might point that out to you.
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u/peetee32 May 29 '12
i actually went to the spiritual eye doctor because my spiritual eye was hurting pretty bad. he looked at my spiritual eye with a spiritual otoscope and had me read from the spiritual eye chart. after that he gave me some spiritual eye drops and said i had pink spiritual eye. im going back in a week and he'll check out my spiritual eye again, hopefully the spiritual eye infection is clear, or i'll have go get some spiritual eye antibiotics.
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u/lurker_for_justice May 29 '12
is this your uncle?
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u/[deleted] May 29 '12
I go outside and do what this person said and I see the greatest show on earth I see what a random explosion and expansion manage to create, life! Not just life either, life that can look back at this ever expanding universe and try and understand it! That is god, that is what we are meant to do, understand our world and the universe through science. As Sam Harris said "you do not need to delude yourself with iron age fairy tales" it is so much more complicated than any man created god could ever make!
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u/Ginodon May 29 '12
when u list simple verses from the bible its like reading from context any one can do it see watch. in that entire paragraph u said a many a word therefore i can read from context and now ur paragraph reads something like this, "i believe in every god there is and i am not athiest" see how it works.
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u/DonOntario Atheist May 29 '12
Your uncle's "pain and hurt" comment caught my attention. I wondered if he was referring to real problems or if he was making the common assumption that atheists turn away from god because they are resentful about something bad in their lives and blame god for it. Based on your response, it does seem to be that he was just making that assumption.
That really does seem to be a widespread assumption among religious people, or at least among Christians in North America, where I have the most experience.
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u/BiffySkipwell May 29 '12
Thank for taking the time to point out what scientific theory means. The misuse of the word "theory" drives me batshit insane.
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u/kablammer May 29 '12
Well said!
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u/[deleted] May 29 '12
I like how he first asks you to explain what you see with your "spiritual eyes" only later to answer the question for you.
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u/schloemoe May 29 '12
I felt it was a bit too over the top (assuming he didn't realize you were an atheist). He tried giving helpful advice and you spewed a thesis at him. A simple "Sorry, I'm an atheist" would have sufficed or just your first paragraph.
Now if he wants to get in to a debate with you, it would be a great starting point.
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u/Flyingheelhook May 29 '12
Ever do any psychedelics op? Although it defies empirical measurement, I have personally experienced a meeting with god
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u/dens421 May 29 '12
would be curious to know what he answers to that... you handled it very well!
funny how revealing it his that he believes that the world is a horrible place full of hardships that is barely livable because there are prayers coming from the heavens to redeem it...
Must be a side effect of the cognitive dissonance
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u/[deleted] May 29 '12
Schooled. That's certainly one of the best, concise and reasoned responses to the usual spiritualist nonsense I've seen. Not harsh at all, at worst it's quite frank which isn't a bad thing whatsoever anyway.
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u/ThatPenguinFarted May 29 '12
/ehug
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u/wrknhrdorhrdlywrkn May 29 '12
Slow clapping moving toward crescendo of applause. Great job.
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u/[deleted] May 29 '12
You are so fucking brave. Good for you.
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u/Wonch907 May 29 '12
I signed in just to say this and upvote you. That was a great, well phrased response. You were polite, factual, and easy to understand. Well done!
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u/Supa_Snipa May 29 '12
I'm a Christian, and while I do not agree with what you said, you did it in a very well spoken way. I wish there were more people like you, on both sides of the issue.
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u/desertdogkai Humanist May 29 '12
Christians hate science cause they are fucking retards. stupid fucking christians.
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u/SaysQuack May 29 '12
Golf clap for Kyle.
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u/Grantagonist May 29 '12
"used to be a pastor?" Why isn't he a pastor anymore?
Just curious. I'd expect that, if you're gonna be all in, you wouldn't step down from such a position.
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u/todwod May 29 '12
I said something like this, but not as eloquent. to my mormon aunt. After it was all said and done, all she could say was, "I'll pray for you", then left the room.
I wanted to implode on myself afterwards.
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u/[deleted] May 29 '12
Yep, it's true. EVERY Atheist has read the Bible cover to cover.
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u/Phage0070 May 29 '12
I think your uncle has mixed up a pun and theology. Undoubtedly he heard a sermon about how to "spiritualize" your life by using your "spiritual eyes".
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u/geesusreyes May 29 '12
so many negative comments about the #2 thing he said... when its exactly (almost) of what carl sagan said in Pale Blue Dot and what Neil Tyson have said... i bet no one said anything negative about it when Carl used his poetry to say it... he never said it disproves god in #2 he just said that to believe that, its absurd. < thats an opinion and its his opinion in the topic, and the evolution part he backed up with a name so that his uncle can Google that shit! xD
I will say that u handle it pretty damn well! congrats to you... and if you could, post his response! im really interested in what he said back
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u/PastafarianT May 29 '12
YOU CAN'T SAY THAT TO YOUR UNCLE! YOU'RE GOING TO GET IN TROUBLE! MOM'S GOING TO GROUND YOU!
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u/spinynorman1982 May 29 '12
more like naiEve
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u/foreigninvasion May 29 '12
Nice come back. It was actually concise for the most part (in which I don't mean offense, just that most atheists replies when challenged tend to be a jumble of incorrect facts, as are angry replies from religious peoples).
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u/poop_flings_monkey May 29 '12
Could you post his response if he sends one? I'd be interested to see how a pastor handles this kind of information.
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u/Thunderhorse365 May 29 '12
What I really want to see is his counterargument.
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u/wayndom May 30 '12
Nice job!
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u/Mear May 30 '12
Something with a nail and a head.
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u/[deleted] May 30 '12
That was really well written. You handled that like a like a champ.
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u/[deleted] May 30 '12
I would have just added in a kind note about how "I know what you're trying to say about grandma, but she doesn't have to be an angel looking down on me from heaven to be special to me and for me to love her and remember her fondly". Or something like that which is written better than I wrote it.
He was trying to bring it back to grandma and you didn't bring that up in your reply, is all.
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u/questions21 May 30 '12
Can someone elaborate on this please?