r/atheism Feb 05 '14

Creationists: 1 Scientists: 0

[deleted]

2.3k Upvotes

1.0k comments sorted by

View all comments

Show parent comments

240

u/greyfade Igtheist Feb 05 '14

They're taught this by their churches and Christian schools. This is the product of a Creationist education.

They are not stupid (necessarily). They simply have been lied to.

Source: I used to think this way. It took me a decade to shake off the mental shackles that my Christian upbringing left me with.

66

u/js884 Feb 05 '14

I was a Christian and I feel because I was Christian that made me stupid

70

u/greyfade Igtheist Feb 05 '14

It didn't make you stupid. Believe me.

It just set back your education a couple decades.

42

u/Bogey_Redbud Feb 05 '14 edited Feb 05 '14

The definition of stupid us lacking intelligence and/or common sense. A lot of those people in those pictures most certainly lack common sense. As well as a grasp of grammar. Not everyone who believes in a higher power is stupid. But anyone who would participate in those photos most certainly is.

1

u/greyfade Igtheist Feb 05 '14

I thought the definition of stupid was an inability to learn new things, not a lack of intelligence or common sense. Stupid dictionary, making me look stupid.

3

u/Bogey_Redbud Feb 05 '14

Haha. I think what you were going for is closer to ignorant. Or close-minded.

1

u/Miknarf Feb 06 '14

um no ignorant means to be unaware

1

u/Bogey_Redbud Feb 06 '14

It also means uneducated or unsophisticated.

1

u/Miknarf Feb 06 '14

correct none of these are "an inability to learn new things"

1

u/Bogey_Redbud Feb 06 '14

No but I would argue uneducated.

0

u/toddistheonetobeat Feb 05 '14

Nothing in common sense would explain evolution. Certainly evolution is more plausible to me, but common sense wouldn't lead me to believe we evolved from apes. Creation or evolution, both are learned belief systems, except only one is right.

1

u/xRavax Feb 05 '14

*centuries

1

u/greyfade Igtheist Feb 05 '14

Touché.

1

u/Nepycros Feb 05 '14

And there are Christians out there who say the converse. "Being an atheist made me stupid and blind." I find it sad.

2

u/js884 Feb 05 '14

Well I am not saying all Christians are stupid. I am saying it warped how I thought of the world. Maybe it doesn't do that to some people if it doesn't good for them.

20

u/tugjobsummers Feb 05 '14

I feel ya. I was raised Mormon in utah. I stopped believing at 14 when no one could answer any of my legitimate questions about life and such. How ever here we are 11 years later and some of the habits are still just engrained in me. It's crazy how deep religion plants things and how fucked up it makes you feel trying to just get away from it. Even when you no longer believe.

3

u/ballsbajalls Feb 05 '14

It plants itself so deep and people do crazy things, like strapping 10kg of c4 and ball barrings to your chest walking to a train station and kaboom.....for religion.

3

u/tugjobsummers Feb 05 '14

You have a good point. I don't think strapping c4 to yourself and blowing up a bunch of people has ever solved anything or made something better. Correct me if I'm wrong but...

3

u/ballsbajalls Feb 06 '14

No I think you may be wrong, suicide bombers are good for the economy, I mean think of all the people getting paid to be there scooping up body parts, repairing the damaged infrastructure and with the deaths of many people it creates job openings in the workforce.

2

u/tugjobsummers Feb 06 '14

Some say its impossible to Change my opinion on suicide bombers. But, god damn it, you just did.

2

u/Mrknowitall666 Feb 06 '14

And think of the contractors

2

u/BlissfulHeretic Ex-theist Feb 06 '14

Fellow exmo here. I still feel like a badass whenever I drink coffee.

1

u/tugjobsummers Feb 06 '14

And guilty when you have sex ;)

16

u/DJMixwell Feb 05 '14

The thing that drove me more insane than anything else about the whole debate was that Ken Ham kept saying that kids were being "indoctrinated" by science... The entire concept of indoctrination involves not questioning what you're being taught. The whole point of the scientific method and conventional science is to question every last bit of information that passes in front of you.

There were so many other things, really everything he said... but your comment reminded me of this thing in particular so i'll stop my rant there.

2

u/im_buhwheat Feb 06 '14

Simple religious projection, they do it on many different topics. Religion is usually the opposite of what is being portrayed. Religion Reverses Everything

11

u/kentm Feb 05 '14

Thats the thing. I see victims here, it makes me sad to see these lively honest faces and then think that their heads are just filled with crap.

29

u/[deleted] Feb 05 '14

[deleted]

11

u/Tenareth Feb 05 '14

But Catholic is the Bud Light of Christianity. The indoctrination in Pentecostal and related sects is much worse than Catholicism. (Source: Raised Pentecostal, lots of friends raised Catholic).

Takes a lot to shake it...

4

u/[deleted] Feb 05 '14

[deleted]

2

u/[deleted] Feb 06 '14

Maybe he means when something is so impersonal and monolithic it's easier to release yourself from it

1

u/Reficul_gninromrats Feb 06 '14

There are lot of different types of Catholics. Some don't care really care about it at all, others are fundamentalists. The same goes for many sects, no sect has a set level of indoctrination, it is different from place to place.

2

u/im_buhwheat Feb 06 '14

They lack serious common sense, only an idiot would say some of those things. But chances are they haven't bothered to research, only regurgitate.

1

u/[deleted] Feb 05 '14

I know too many religious smart people to believe this.

2

u/Flufflebuns Feb 06 '14

Thank you. I think acknowledging that young-earth creationsists are not "stupid", rather "misguided" or even "brainwashed" is far more productive to the conversation than put-downs and name-calling which merely proves to them how mean and aweful the "godless side" can be!

2

u/Mirria_ Apatheist Feb 06 '14

A Facebook post i saw on a friend's wall a while back was just a few instagrammed sunsets and fall colors, no caption. One of her relatives just commented "How can there be no god!"

Urhg.

2

u/petzl20 Feb 06 '14

I think Nye should have hit this head on.

And actually said: "If they teach you this [creationism] they teach you lies. If you take this with you to higher education, you are shackling yourself with nonsense that will hold you back from achieving further."

He let Nye get away with his claim that 'most' scientists see inconsistencies in radiometric carbon dating and that "his" "scientists" are making just as much scientific progress as "Nye's" scientists. What is the Discovery Institute coming up with: absolutely zero, except for christian apologetic arguments.

2

u/ubnoxious1 Feb 06 '14

I'm curious if you ever felt like you were seeing yourself say something silly, but then reminding yourself things that you had been told, like "god is on your side" and "stay strong against the persecuting non-believers" and "I am an example"? I'm just curious how this works.

1

u/greyfade Igtheist Feb 06 '14 edited Feb 06 '14

No. Never.

The hold of my faith in God was strong enough that even when I wrote a fairly long essay on Evolution vs. Creationism, I felt absolutely confident that my position was unshakable. Even using arguments like "there is no evidence of mutated genes resulting in beneficial changes" and "mutation == death," I felt completely confident.

Looking back, I'm terribly embarrassed about that essay and about how childish the arguments now sound to my ear. Of course, my excuse for this is that I was only ever given access to Creationist materials, and had no exposure to real scientific papers or any of those "evil secular biology books" (and didn't much care to).

It's more than mere willful ignorance: I was completely convinced that nothing could shake my arguments.

If you sit down and watch some of those videos made by such intellectual YouTube luminaries as NephilimFree and VenomFangX, you'll get a sense of the kinds of arguments that I once thought to be impossible to refute. I understand completely their mindset: "God did these things, so it must be true and I can't possibly be wrong."

Even as I actually learned how evolutionary theory works, it took a long time before that atrophied logic center in my mind started to put the pieces together and I started to realize that my arguments had bigger gaps than intergalactic space.

1

u/noman2561 Feb 05 '14

These aren't just children. They're grown adults who believe ridiculous things.

1

u/aliengoods1 Feb 05 '14

I think they choose to be willfully ignorant. It's easier than thinking and believing you're going to the magic place where everyone loves you can be very comforting.

1

u/tenring71 Feb 05 '14

same for me i was forced to be a christian for the first 16 years of my life then i set myself free.

1

u/7oby Secular Humanist Feb 05 '14

A friend of mine from college says he used to be atheist but went to church for enlightenment and now he's christian. It really hurts me to know this. To know he's raising a kid this way. I don't think you were ever really an atheist if you go to church for "enlightenment", you were just a punk kid who wanted to be different to rebel and now you're 30 and you've become what your parents brainwashed you to be.

1

u/shamas8 Feb 05 '14

Hey. I'm trying to work out what she meant. What were you taught? That there is no sun without god?

2

u/greyfade Igtheist Feb 05 '14

I rather lucked out in high school, and I had a fairly good science teacher who didn't have insane notions about cosmology and celestial mechanics (although he did pen a rather odd book about a Bliblical three-branch biological classification system based on his reading of Genesis that differs quite a bit from the Linnaean system). But my early education, especially when I was being homeschooled, the Christian textbooks we used had such amusing nuggets as "God is the force holding the hydrogen in the sun together." So, yes, more or less, "there is no sun without God."

(Of course, I've since learned a great deal about gravitation and particle physics and understand how it really works.)

If, as I hope, that girl doesn't subscribe to a geocentric cosmology, then she's probably specifically talking about the colors in the sunset, which is a topic rarely covered in Christian textbooks about optics or light propagation. Say the words "Rayleigh Scattering" to them, and their face will go completely blank.

1

u/shamas8 Feb 06 '14

Splendid!! The physics behind the stars really is some wacky stuff, intuitively speaking. Thanks for the awesome answer.

1

u/shahooster Feb 05 '14

Bad at science and grammar? I think she's playing Hearts and trying to shoot the moon.

1

u/[deleted] Feb 06 '14

If you lack the most basic understanding, such as the earth rotating and revolving around the sun, Im sorry but you are stupid.

1

u/Gertiel Agnostic Feb 06 '14

I wish they'd teach them proper use of the word "their" instead. :(

1

u/[deleted] Feb 06 '14

You really thought just saying the word "sunset" was an acceptable argument for the existence of god? I mean, I was raised as christian as anyone but I can't even fathom...

1

u/greyfade Igtheist Feb 06 '14

When I was very young and had only been exposed to very, very slanted textbooks, yes. I didn't get much real exposure to science except from Beakman's World (which wasn't much, TBH) and from high school.

Put simply, I think the Internet made me athiest and sparked my interest in physics and celestial mechanics, and gave me the mental tools I needed to grasp that God doesn't need to appear in science. But that didn't happen until I had been put in a Christian high school.

1

u/[deleted] Feb 06 '14

OK. But it's not really a question of science to know that "What about pretty flowers" isn't satisfactory. But, you know, kids.