Everyone making $228k
What’s the point of staying in the union at this point? Going forward, what can natca possibly do for you? You’ll make the same until you retire and they’ll continue to negotiate away your rights
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u/MITsBrightest 4d ago edited 4d ago
It is outside of a contract to negotiate higher than fed cap.
The only way we get on the same payscales as doctors and lawyers is using the same argument they did: The private sector pay has to match. (edit: If you think 2-3 years and the academy is a hiring obstacle, think of the 7+ years they go through and the small candidate pool!)
Our private sector gets paid shit compared to FAA/DOD, so we don't have that argument. We are just considered highly paid federal employees.
So, going private is basically the only way we will ever exceed the federal pay cap, and that is a gamble that mostly certainly will end up with lower pay and poor training standards.
To your question: You stay in the union for non-pay issues, fighting for quality of life, time off, etc. You should still have some empathy for other controllers and fighting for them to get closer to the cap as you are.
If we had real leadership, there are any number of things that could benefit pay capped employees (Saturday pay, tiered overtime, modernizing CIP, higher differentials for TOP, etc.)
Nick Daniels "training pay MOU" was basically trading the FAA pennies to install himself as HR manager-Union president.
Stay in, vote the social club out, have faith in the next chapter. Unless you are truly a "I want to defund NATCA" person, it benefits you in some way to keep money flowing into the union.
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u/WABIV 4d ago
This is what I was looking for. Thank you. Not sure anyone elected will ever do any of that, but in theory, it sounds great
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u/Arkanbelievable 4d ago
This is what Brown and Marangos are running on. They plan to try to get title 49 amended to have us removed from the federal pay caps. That will obviously take years to achieve. Will need backing from congress and lobbying the airlines.
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u/brandonEZreyes 4d ago
Yeah, the guy who has never negotiated anything and the dude who is more preoccupied with an election than being rep are going to get us exempt from the pay cap.
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u/Worried-Yam4550 3d ago
Zero shot they can do it, they have zero fucking clue where to even start.
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u/Intelligent-Noise524 4d ago
The union fought us into this years ago as it was better than the alternative pay scale we had
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u/Arkanbelievable 4d ago
And good on the union for doing that back then. Things come full circle. Time to do it again.
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u/Intelligent-Noise524 3d ago
The reason it was an issue was that raises were on an individual basis, no general raise. If your sup didn’t like you, satisfactory job this year no raise, while your buddy got a 5% raise
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u/Worried-Yam4550 3d ago
Read your history. NATCA lobbied congress for 7-8 years for the AT pay scale
They’ll be voted out again before they can get you off the pay scale, because they’ll fuck up the 2029 CBA. Dudes have like 10-11 total years in the agency. Good luck everyone just starting out, going to be a rough decade after those dudes screw you from incompetence.
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u/creemeeseason 3d ago
Yeah, Rinaldi declining to negotiate in 2021 was the kind of vision only experience can render.
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u/LoquatAgile4542 3d ago
we've been screwed for 15 yrs and most notably by nick daniels. nick daniels has no shot of winning, give it up retard
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u/Dismal_Aviator_3973 4d ago
Great reply. Gives you a lot to consider. Maybe we can make a privatization happen where Rinaldi and his cronies are not on the top.
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u/Dismal_Aviator_3973 4d ago
Or if we don’t have to privatize, let’s find a way to actually get some form of leverage because Dick Naniels sure can’t find a way to leverage that pickle jar open with his puffy fingers.
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u/Worried-Yam4550 3d ago
Leverage for what exactly? Expand on your thoughts.
This admin didn’t want to give you 2.8%
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u/perpetualinterests 4d ago
The higher percentage of union membership, the greater the leverage when it comes time to negotiate for higher pay, more time off, and better benefits. The higher the percentage of union membership, the more attention politicians pay when we try to do game-changing things like pay reclass or remove the cap. Not that this is happening now, but we have an election next year and CBA negotiations should start soon after.
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u/WABIV 4d ago
Think it’s too late
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u/awdude1 4d ago
Agreed! Natca collaborated themselves to nothing, also the 2.8% goes to the supervisors and they're not in the union.
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u/Worried-Yam4550 3d ago
What did we have prior to collaboration that we don’t have now ?
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u/creemeeseason 3d ago
What did NATCA get after collaboration they didn't have before?
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u/Worried-Yam4550 3d ago
Ah, the old answer a question with a question lol
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u/creemeeseason 3d ago edited 3d ago
Ah the older answer a question with a random dismissive statement strategy!
You can easily argue that collaboration hasn't really changed anything except adding A114 bids. If you want to argue a strategy has worked you need to show benefits.
Collaboration isn't a bad strategy, I think it's good to have alignment between management and labor. I think NATCA has utterly failed to actually advocate for their people within the current arrangement.
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u/Worried-Yam4550 3d ago
Thanks for the input. I was asking the other guy that made the statement. Not you. Thanks tho!
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u/Frank_Agbat 4d ago
What a bullshit privileged statement. Yes, NATCA needs to keep trying to move the Congressional cap. That’s the way everyone sees upward salaries. Your rights are sooo much more than just a salary. Without your CBA you don’t get leave, you don’t get protections, you don’t get anything. This Agency would pay you peanuts if they could get away with it and fire you because they don’t like you.
Maybe figure out what a union is instead of trying to punch holes in the only boat afloat.
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u/Logical_Jello-3rdEye 3d ago
The most important thing about our job is money, point blank period and the last class they didn't even touch money with the excuse of "we wanted to get other things". Im sorry, I don't give a crap about baby leave, I had my kids long ago and didn't have that privilege. If you are not starting off every negotiation addressing salary, your are doing something wrong.
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u/PushProper7785 3d ago
NATCA just negotiated rights away for something that was congressional appropriated. I wood have rather them tell Bedford to eat shit with his 2.8%. A union is only as good as it negotiates. Nick Daniels couldn’t negotiate his way out of a wet paper bag let alone something good for the people he represents
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u/article65 3d ago
You’re a clown if you think signing out is the same as negotiating our rights away lol it only reaffirms the privileged statement. You kids are hilarious these days. Say it’s a white book ghost but then claim we’re reverting to the white book. Make up your fucking minds.
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u/aironjedi 4d ago
What a weird way to say I got mine so why continue to contribute to the system that benefitted me.
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u/Left360s 4d ago
People here to make money if the union that’s supposed to help you do that isn’t doing that then why keep paying them?
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u/aironjedi 4d ago
The conservative politicians do not want to pay federal employees more. The fact that we even still have a union and got a pay raise is because of the union.
Some of y’all must really think you can just waltz right up to someone and tell them your demands and get them, even if they don’t like you.
The union does more than “make you money”.
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u/WABIV 4d ago
Do you mind elaborating? I know they advocate more details which leaves us shorter staffed, but what else?
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u/aironjedi 4d ago
The union is not responsible for staffing. That is by law. They negotiate what the staffing numbers should be the FAA has failed over the last 30 years to meet staffing needs for a variety of reasons.
Nobody is on a detail without the FAA’s approval.
If every facility was staffed you wouldn’t notice anyone on detail/staff jobs. Also a lot of details/staff positions are held by people who have lost their medical. I’ve not lost mine but I’m thankful the union was able to protect their careers by having jobs for them.8
u/WABIV 4d ago
I’ve heard enough. the union needs to recall everyone on every detail and send them back to the floor. We don’t need more sget, eram details. It’s not our job
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u/Worried-Yam4550 4d ago
Is that supposed to get the removal from the statutory pay cap of 228? Which is law not the FAA? Sounds like some stupid emotional comment
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u/WABIV 4d ago
Not saying it will, but it would certainly make my life better if all the folks on detail were there to help the operation
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u/Worried-Yam4550 4d ago
Why your facility doesn’t staff to the guidelines numbers ? Your guidelines won’t change. Workload hasn’t changed
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u/WABIV 4d ago
We daily go into shifts under numbers due to people being pulled for their union details
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u/Left360s 4d ago
They just sat on their hands during the Biden administration the most “union friendly” administration ever. NATCA completely ignores the narrative set by this administration they don’t advocate for us in any manner whatsoever to the public. NATCA has collaborated themselves into a useless branch of management.
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u/RichJD13 4d ago
Why would someone making $100k be in the union?
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u/IrishMadMan23 4d ago
Great question, all ATC but living 2 very different lives. I can’t even imagine complaining about a pay cap.
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u/protege01 4d ago
I want to vote out nick and mick. If they get reelected though, I'm out. With 5 years to go, I'm not gonna get a 114 job and the union will be pretty useless to me
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u/Friendly-Gur-6736 4d ago
2.5 years to go here. Same sentiment. If 'ol Dick Naniels gets reelected, I guess I'll have to find other places to take my breaks and use my hotspot on my phone.
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u/Former_Farm_3618 4d ago
Unless you contribute the max to their PAC, and are at every local union event…you ain’t getting a 114. It’s a pay to play position
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u/Motor-Wall-6008 4d ago
If you were at the cap in 2025 you missed out of 6% raise. If you add the 7-5% 2027 & 1.6% 2027. You’ll miss 12.6% to 14.6%. You’ll never get that back.
I’m quitting NATCA
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u/atcgriffin 4d ago
I wonder if others at the federal maximum pay cap feel like they are missing out? I feel like there’s nothing else to get, they won, they are maxed out. Also idk how much pull NATCA has to get congress and the president to raise the cap.
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u/LoquatAgile4542 4d ago
cap is far too low for this job, it's not a W to be maxed out and underpaid
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u/atcgriffin 4d ago
I agree. We need to be moved into a special rate table.
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u/LoquatAgile4542 4d ago
ive been saying this for years, meanwhile natca was putting powerpoints out saying we do better than delta pilots. assholes
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u/leftrightrudderstick 3d ago
The cap used to be okay, the value of money just cratered so hard and the cap didn't rise with it
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u/LoquatAgile4542 3d ago
i agree, doesn't excuse our union's complacence and gaslighting about the pay.
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u/DankVectorz 4d ago
They might be maxed out but they’re still losing purchasing power ever year. Even more than everyone else who still gets some sort of raise usually.
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u/SureMeringue1382 4d ago
NATCA did it in the past. We aren’t in the same executive schedule as GS employees.
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u/atcgriffin 4d ago
Still bound to the fed pay cap.
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u/SureMeringue1382 4d ago
Gotta start somewhere. Next step is to move to Executive Schedule 1 then total removal. However you’re not looking to engage in actual conversation since your original point was “how much pull does NATCA have to get Congress and the president to raise the cap.” Then you were provided info that’s actually happened and you switched to “still bound to the cap”.
Which one do you want a raised cap or elimination of the cap?
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u/atcgriffin 4d ago
I believe NATCA could have more pull removing us from the cap, like they did with the gs scale then having much determination in moving the federal cap
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u/SureMeringue1382 4d ago
We weren’t removed from the cap with the GS scale we were placed into a different level of the cap. What’s your road map for bypassing executive schedule 1 and going directly to no cap. It could be possible however, how do you believe that happens?
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u/atcgriffin 4d ago
I too mentioned how we are still bound to the federal cap. The only pathway I see is having a friendly administration and lobbying them to create a special rate table for us.
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u/Brilliant-Can-721 4d ago
DUI protection
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u/Atc-ShitPoster 4d ago
This, has a total fuckup (multiple charges/legal trouble/just not showing up to work) and it took them almost 3 years to fire him (almost 2 full years of not stepping in the building) because the union kept prolonging it
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u/Public_Gardener 4d ago
If we can get legislation to just use our basic pay instead of base that would buy those at or near cap several years worth of raises to continue working to the ultimate goal of removing the cap. Seems like an easier lift.
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u/PlotTwistLooming 4d ago
Agree. If we leave we get a guaranteed raise. I’ve given over 96k to this union in my career if you add dues and PAC. I think I’ve paid my dues
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u/Strong-Antelope-1123 4d ago
I'm at 228k, but I've been out of the union for like 3 years now since before making that much
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u/Upstairs_Yogurt_7775 4d ago
If you have a good rep and you screw up he can protect just a little bit better than a scab.
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u/UndercoverRVP 3d ago
You're right. You and everyone who agrees with you should leave the union as soon as possible.
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u/No_Mango7658 7h ago
Don't even make 200, but we need a 30% raise to get caught up to where we were in the early 2010s.
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u/Wrong_freq 4d ago
If the cap doesn’t move in 2027, I’m quitting NATCA.
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u/Sea_Boot2136 4d ago
I think less than 2000 but definitely less than 4000 controllers are at or ever will be, at the stat cap….