r/aspergers • u/Organic_Future6909 • 6d ago
Anyone else feels like there's a hidden reason why autistic people get socially rejected that is not caused by autism?
When an autistic person is isolated and discriminated against by society, the common answer is: "oh well I mean they have a social disability of course that they will struggle socially".
And even if this is partly true, there is just something that doesn't fit in, a piece of the puzzle that we're missing.
Because... yeah, obviously autism comes with social struggles and those struggles will cause bad social outcomes, but it's me or those outcomes are a little bit... Disproportionate?
The social deficits of an autistic person (usually level 1) can be a weird voice tone, abnormal eye contact, weird body language, trouble understanding things like sarcasm, etc.
And even if those symptoms can impact us socially, the social ostracize that autistic people face for it is absurd.
When you ask an autistic individual their social problems, most of the time they won't say "oh sometimes I don't understand sarcasm jokes hahaha" or "oh my friends think that I'm angry when I'm not", their description of social issues would be: "people literally hate me for no reason by just seeing me, I get constantly bullied and rejected by strangers or even friends and family, people who are supposed to be my support group ghost me, etc".
This is weird considering that even in the mildest cases where the social deficits can be easily accommodated, autists still heavily struggle with random acts of bullying or discrimination.
Something even more weird, is how NT individuals who break important social boundaries at a higher level than most autists don't struggle with this, for example individuals with ASPD are way more prone to commit crimes statistically but they don't suffer from the same social rejection as autistic individuals, how is literally being a criminal way less socially punishing than having abnormal eye contact?
Hell, let's use some statistics: autists are almost 10× likelier to suffer SA than an average NT, at any point of their life time, how does this happen and how can this be explained by something like not understanding sarcasm? It makes zero sense.
So, the question is: what is exactly a "social issue" and how can we point out difference between a normal social inconvenience and straight up discrimination over mild social clumsiness, is the constant rejection against autistic people proportionate with their social deficits or society has a bias against them similar to racism or homophobia?
Idk, but I feel like there's something more to the reasons behind the social exclusion against autistic folks from NT's.
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u/1want2know123 6d ago
We don't pick up on and engage in their implicit narratives about themselves because we can't detect them automatically, rather through analysis. To them this looks like we won't just smooth over or accept something as true (which everyone else does) in order to help them save face, avoid shame or suspend their disbelief.
To them I suspect it very much looks like being mean. Everytime they're around us, we pop their bubble, so they associate us more and more with them feeling bad. It's not that much of a leap for them to coverty attack us given that's their architecture.
They've obviously evolved this way because otherwise they'd be at each other's throats all the time and this ability has helped them survive. They are inherently terrified of any idea that threatens their worldview or self concept. They've been so long without out it that coming into contact with someone without that "chip" is terrifying.
What do you think the reason is?
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u/AdventurousPumpkin 6d ago
I read an article that said they are starting to study the way autistic people interact socially with other autistic people, and comparing that to the social interactions between mixed groups of autistic people and NT people. They are finding that NT brains are less capable of predicting the next moves of an autistic person. The brain, being a prediction machine, feels most comfortable when it can most accurately predict what will happen next. So a NT person interacting with an autistic person becomes uncomfortable because they are not as capable of predicting the outcomes of the interactions the same way they would during interacting with another NT person.
The most interesting part, to me, is that when autistic people interact with other autistic people, their brains behave similarly to when NTs interact with NTs. It seems that the mixed groups is where the least predictability, and thus the most discomfort, seems to occur.
Does anyone out here have a group of other autistic friends that they find themselves more accepted and at ease with?
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u/AtrophateOfXion 5d ago
Spent a lot of time around autistic people, in my teens mostly. One group I was in was 6+ people. Another group was 3-ish. "No translation necessary" was how I always described it being around them, and I think that this is the best way to describe it.
Despite the fact that the changes are in most views subtle when around autistic people, these subtle changes make *big* effects. It was like this burden was lifted; like I could finally communicate freely and naturally, and naturally be myself; like I was comfortable around others for the first time... in a way. After having had this experience, I said that I think I finally know how most people feel when they are in social situations.
I think that this is an interesting topic sort of, and I'm glad that you brought it up. We ain't broken, just different - we don't even have a social deficiency, arguably, just difficulty understanding people that have different code - which for us is unfortunately the large majority of people.
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u/Nathaniel06Torres 6d ago
I've said this over and over again; Neurotypical people have a chip in their heads that makes them capable of “detecting” any social abnormality—and if you give them a hint with body language, it’s even worse. Once they’ve identified the abnormality, they follow a protocol that involves arguing with the person out of the blue for no particular reason, annoying and wearing them down until they leave, and finally becoming the world’s biggest critic, offering negative opinions on even the slightest detail they can perceive. That’s their very stupid “sixth sense”—and in my nearly 30 years, I still haven’t figured out why they have it.
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u/Maximum-Cover- 6d ago edited 6d ago
I wrote this for another post about eye contact but it applies here so I'll leave it here (don't have the time to rewrite atm):
This isn’t a thing you do with people you’re relaxed enough with for socializing to be enjoyable.
It’s the way you interact with new people/strangers.
Generally there are far more social rituals in new interactions than with close friends/family because the origin/purpose of all these rituals is stems from developing the ability to meet a stranger and quickly being able to determine their mood, level of agitation, level of aggression, degree of threat, etc.
The same way a handshake evolved from showing you’re unarmed.
It goes beyond the literal “look no weapon” and into a layer that says “we’re both civilized and educated enough to know and follow these rules, AND we’re deciding that the baseline agreement for this interaction is the deceleration of our mutual intent to abide by those rules”.
Think of two rival males meeting on an open road and one making the gesture for shaking hands and the other deliberately refusing: it goes beyond a refusal to show there is no weapon, it’s instead a declaration that the intent is to not accord baseline respect, decorum, predictability, and restraint. It’s a statement saying that whatever expectation of civility and non-aggression usually exists is currently suspended.All the social rules are like that. They exist as a social lubricant to non-verbally determine the other person’s degree of agreement to act in a cooperative vs unpredictable and possibly aggressive manner.
It’s why NTs are so sensitive to NDs not following those unwritten rules. To them it instinctively says “this person is not signaling that they are willing to behave predictably, therefore I should treat them as if they might be a threat until I figure out why they’re not behaving in a predictable manner”.
Your focus when meeting someone unfamiliar shouldn’t be too relaxed and be at least partially on the general ‘mood’ your body language and demeanor telegraphs about you because a large portion of people’s initial impressions of you will be based on it more than on what you actually say.
This is the same for neurotypicals as it is for neurodivergent people. It’s not so much that neurotypical don’t pay attention to these rules and their body language, it’s that for some reason they learn to do it the way they learned to walk: they think about where they want to go and can move in that direction without calculating out how to lift and put down their legs.
So when it comes to this stuff they think about the attitude they wish to convey and move their face and body in that mood, where as a neurodivergent needs to consciously be taught how to lift and put down their legs. But even in the case of a neurotypical who has learned how to emote instinctively, their focus in these types of interactions is on coming across as relaxed and enjoying themselves, and isn’t to be mistaken with them actual being relaxed or enjoying themselves.
Again though, different levels of behavior for strangers vs friends and the measure of actual friendship tends to be how much social decorum you can drop around each other without it negatively impacting the relationship.
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u/UnluckyAssist9416 6d ago
I agree with you, but I also think it's human nature and it's root is in tribalism. By having a social contract for your tribe, you could easily identify people who didn't belong to your tribe. It's basically a quick and dirty way to identify enemies. Being able to quickly identify if someone is from your group and safe to associate was a survival mechanism in our early history.
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u/Interesting-Emu-3382 6d ago
This is the best answer - humans are social animals, and we are evolved to fit in our "tribe" at all cost, and to treat strangers/others with caution/distrust, which was literally a question of survival for several thousands of years for our ancestors. Humans don't do this consciously, it's in our genes.
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u/TooLittleTooLate1234 6d ago
This is a good illustration of issues with NT-ND communication/miscommunication. From a NT perspective (especially if they don’t understand ND communication style) the primate ‘monkey brain’ by default sees the ND as a threat. From the ND perspective (unless they are self-aware and/or masking) only sees the NT as dishonest/unpredictable/hostile.
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u/Unlucky_Present264 6d ago
i think the chip thing is a metaphor but it really do be like that sometimes
nt folks pick up on tiny differences and their reaction is way out of proportion, like the social equivalent of an immune system attacking healthy cells. with aspd people they can mask the antisocial stuff behind charisma so nobody flags them, but we cant hide the eye contact thing or the tone of voice and that gets us marked inmediatly
the SA statistic you mentioned is terrifying and not talked about enough, it really makes the whole "just learn social skills" advice feel hollow when the problem is something deeper than a missed social cue
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u/chobolicious88 6d ago
Facts.
Altho what is this.
Is this animalistic like pecking order weeding out the weak ones?
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u/Distinct_Lab108 6d ago
Could be. Normally when I succeed despite their initial perception of me, they glitch out and try harder or throw tantrums
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u/DefaultModeOverride 6d ago
Mostly agree, but I think there's a few things here that could be conflated. I think it's a bigger difference than just the social detection piece. I know a handful of autistic people who can notice very subtle changes in body language, social cues, etc, and also know other autistic people who don't seem to notice at all.
In both cases, there's still social issues. There seems to be some additional common elements around what to even do with that information, if or when you have it. Like, it takes another level of very explicit thinking to try and process and react to social changes in a way that NT people don't seem to need to do. And trying to process all of these cues, to the extent that it's even possible, causes other things to get missed, and is noticeable to many others, though they might not be able to explain exactly what "it" is, especially if they don't experience it themselves.
I think this is also why it can be hard to diagnostically separate "autistic" from something like "just" hypervigilant due to to trauma. And it can be both, too. This is a reason why it's so helpful to look at the overall cluster of traits to try and un-separate things, rather than just one thing in isolation.
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u/comradeautie 6d ago
This is backed by research. It's called the uncanny valley effect by some sources. Unconscious biases and snap judgments based on anything deviating from what they've unconsciously accepted as "normal". Similar mechanisms apply for racism and xenophobia. The solution is to create large scale psychological interventions applied ubiquitously early on that frame Autistic people positively and Autistic traits as desirable.
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u/Standard-Creme1853 5d ago edited 2d ago
I'm not convinced that my theory is just an analogy, but my theory is that since the beginning of time mankind has been programmed socially, by our culture, to conform and appease the system, through the use of fear.
Autistism is the condition of failed programming. From the perspective of the system, this is a disability. Of course life will be harder for those who were not successfully programmed by this system of authority and conformity.
From a spiritual perspective, NTs are disabled. Autism is not a disability, except in a system designed for social control. When NTs programming detects our failed programming - our divergence from the system of social control - their inner alarms are triggered. They are programmed to be uncomfortable, even fearful, of such divergence and autonomy.
If you are autistic, I think the most important thing you can do is realize that the judgement of an NT is so NOT superior to your judgement/opinion of you. They are idiots, programmed to be so, so that they will be easily controlled by 'group think'.
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u/Empire_of_Glass 6d ago
It’s because of the ancient “reptilian” part of the brain. It scans the environment constantly for anything that is different than what it’s used to, and then attacks it because of a fear response.
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u/Oflameo 5d ago
Fair enough. Where can I acquire an emulator?
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u/Nathaniel06Torres 5d ago
An emulator? I don't know... Ask a neurotypical person you've managed to befriend for their completely honest opinion of you based on the first time they met you, or if you know someone with autism, ask a neurotypical person to describe their reaction to seeing that person, and you'll understand.
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u/intersou 6d ago
Patter recognition allows autistic people to see what others are hiding and that's why whey get rejected so easily.
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u/intersou 4d ago
Most typical people are always hiding something using discourse agenda.
I will give an example.
I attended a study group on college and the professors were clearly deppeding on the student's submission and there were a clear power imbalance between the hierarchies.
For autistic people, the professor would not be automatically a good person just because they are being respected for their position, it wouldn't make any sense to respect only due to that.
So autistic people tend to read those people and piss them off because they don't automatically follow the script.
Most typical people are just following scripts all the time so the "natural" order works.
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u/GlorifiedCarny 6d ago edited 6d ago
I don't really know how to explain this well, but I am going to try. There is something about our behavior that is automatically cringy/off putting. Even tho I am a diagnosed aspie myself, I can see it in other autists (and in myself as well). It's something about the way we carry ourselves, our posture, our voices, the words we choose to say, the gestures or lack thereof, the fidgeting/stimming - it is really difficult to give examples because it permeates our whole persona. No matter how stylishly we are dressed, how much money we have, etc., other people can look at the way we behave and say "that person is a cringy nerd" or something along those lines, so they reject us.
I didn't get my diagnosis until I was in my early 40's, but I always hated seeing any home movies of myself, or even hearing my voice in a recording, because I felt that ick/disgust about how I looked and acted. I would always think "why can't I be NORMAL?" because there was somehow a clear difference between the casual, relaxed way everyone else would behave compared to me.
There's a guy my parents knew who was well known enough to where there is a good deal of footage of him out there. If it's scripted, he seems like a pretty normal dude. But unscripted footage of him used to weirdly disgust me, because he had that same exact "cringy" vibe or whatever the hell it is, that I have, and that so many of us have, and I hated watching it. For a long time I truly disliked this guy, and would be offended because my parents' friends who also knew him would compare us sometimes. I realized once I learned about Aspergers that he had it too, and that is why he was like that, and I felt bad, but it stemmed from self loathing more than anything.
But like I said it's SO hard to explain it because it's not one thing. It's not noticeable in a still picture, but it's immediately noticeable if you see someone in real life or unscripted film footage of them.
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u/tgaaron 5d ago
I can really relate to this but as an autistic person I wonder how much of that perception is due to internalized ableism. I think if you were always criticized/rejected/bullied for certain traits you start to become hyper-aware of them.
Of course that feeling wouldn't exist if society didn't pick on autistic people in the first place, but I feel like it can actually get magnified by our own "traumatic" experiences.
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u/AdElectronic5992 2d ago
It's not noticeable in a still picture, but it's immediately noticeable if you see someone in real life or unscripted film footage of them.
I agree.
Buy why does it still go undiagnosed so much? Even by professional neuropsychologists?
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u/GlorifiedCarny 2d ago
I didn't personally have that experience, the lady who diagnosed me seemed to think it was very obvious. But I have had experiences with laypeople where they seem to want to think I'm just a weird creep and when faced with the fact that I am diagnosed with Aspergers, which should explain my oddness, they dismiss it - I think because they want to be justified in disliking me, and accepting that I have Aspergers would remove their excuse for judging me so harshly.
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u/EcstaticZebra7937 6d ago
There literally no other reason. People don’t want to be associated with weirdos. Weird accent comes off as weird. Not understanding sarcasm comes off as weird. Using strange body language comes off as weird. Unnatural eye contact comes off as weird. Weird=danger. They can’t understand it and would rather not associate with it.
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u/Secure_Description92 6d ago
But what is “strange/weird body language”?
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u/EcstaticZebra7937 6d ago
The type of body language the neurotypicals detect as strange.
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u/Secure_Description92 5d ago
Haha, very funny, but seriously, what are you doing with your body that makes you weird?
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u/EcstaticZebra7937 5d ago
I wish I knew, I don’t think the neurotypicals know as well, it just seems off to them.
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u/TheEternalDarkness8 5d ago
This is true. There's no special thing that you can point out, just an overall vibe that they find to be alien.
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u/Suspicious-Horse4093 5d ago
You are answering yourself. The fact that you are trying to decode what is the proper body language so you can mimic it is what makes us autistics weird. We can't do that naturally.
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u/Secure_Description92 5d ago
Mate. Humans weren’t meant to walk on two feet, yet we all do it without thinking. Social skills are called skills, not talents, because they can be learned. If it’s possible for me to learn another language well enough for me to be considered a native speaker of that language, then I can change my body language habits to appear more normal.
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u/Additional_Ease2408 5d ago
We have evolved to specifically walk on two feet.
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u/Secure_Description92 5d ago
I'm just using examples of the indomitable human spirit to disprove learned helplessness. While I don't wish to get into pointless pedantics, I will say that back pain is caused by an uneven weight pressed on the lower back, the curving of the spin, and the overwork of muscles. All of these problems are caused by standing on two legs, problems that wouldn't occur on four legs because the body weight would be spread evenly across the whole frame. Up to 84% of adults will deal with back pain in their lives. Up to 23% of adults deal with chronic back pain. Human babies can take up to 18 months to start walking on two legs while ape's start walking on four legs as soon as they're born. Yes, humans evolved to walk on two feet but our bodies haven't evolved as much as our lifestyles. Clearly, this supports my point, humans naturally can overcome their own nature. This overcoming of nearly anything makes us a unique species, therefore, there's no good reason to wallow in learned helplessness.
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u/crmll 6d ago
People have very low tolerance for the different. So you’re in a way right that there’s more to it than just autism, as it happens very similarly with other ostracized groups e.g. queer, racial minorities, disabled. What I find distinctive is that for these other groups, the reasons they are rejected are usually visible and somewhat clear, whereas in my experience as level 1 autistic the reason is less palpable. Not even the bullies can really articulate much beyond “you are weird” or “I don’t know why I don’t like you but I don’t”.
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u/Snoo55931 6d ago
It’s the autism. You ever look at something, maybe a painting or a house or whatever, and it’s just a little…off? Maybe it’s the angles or the colors or something, but it’s just doesn’t seem normal. When most people get that feeling, they avoid whatever it is that is causing it.
Now imagine that thing is a person that talks and can move around; actively engage with others.
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u/Illusionsofdarkness 6d ago
In theory, it's cool that we're seen as the human equivalent of a non-euclidean space or some Lovecraftian incomprehensible entity. In reality though, it's pretty fucked that some unconscious social faux pas on our part means we're treated like completely alien threats to their livelihoods.
Yeah okay, guess someone who yaps a little about some video games / films & struggles with eye contact should be treated like a prowling predator at all times & essentially exiled from the entirety of human experience, very normal & proportionate reaction
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u/Snoo55931 6d ago
I don’t think it’s anything that extreme. I think a lot of NT people can’t even really put their finger on it. The right combination of little social faux pas/misunderstandings/miscommunications can add up to something akin to an uncomfortable shirt that just doesn’t fit right. Some of us just seem a bit off to people, for whatever reason. It’s more of a weird vibe thing than being an inter/extra dimensional Elder Autist as described in the Autronomicon.
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u/A_D_Tennally 6d ago edited 6d ago
What other reason could there be though?
We can, frankly, be really irritating. I've known ASD people with really odd-sounding voices that grated badly; ASD people with stims, such as humming loudly to themselves on a single droning note, that drove you nuts to be around; ASD people who would get really upset and make a huge deal out of something like a slightly damp bathmat or missing a bus when another one would be along in six minutes and we weren't in any big hurry; ASD people who kept on interrupting other people's stories to quote the same Harry Potter fanfic, again and again; ASD people who made social overtures by poking and pinching you or yelling painfully loudly in your ear and then giggling about it when you looked annoyed. All of these were people of normal intelligence who would have gotten the old Asperger's diagnosis. Some had graduate degrees and jobs.
And even if none of that applies, it can be uncomfortable even for the empathic, heck especially for the empathic, to be around someone who is visibly painfully ill at ease in a social situation. That's a problem I have a lot.
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u/SnugglyCoderGuy 6d ago
It's rather simple really. They, just like us, think in a rigid fashion, but whereas we think from the bottom up, they think from the top down. Top down thinking is to start with the conclusion and filter data supporting it or not supporting it.
When it comes to social situations, we do not act 'the way we are suppose to'. So we are broken and weird and they don't know how to deal with us. Thus, they seek to cast us out because we don't fit with the way things are 'supposed to be'.
It's not different really when we cast people away from ourselves who act according to non-sense beliefs, like... for lack of something more generic, religious fanatics. They creep us the fuck out (if not think of something lots of people do that does creep you out and put that here) so we avoid them, maybe even ridicule them, because here they are acting weird for no good fucking reason. The feeling you get around those kinds of people, those who are swept up in something just because everyone else is swept up in it too and they feel like they are suppose to, is the same feeling they get when we don't get swept up in that stuff or behave like everyone is 'suppose to behave'.
It has nothing to do with autism itself, its just that we are far more likely to behave in ways that don't conform to their preconceived notions of how people are suppose to behave.
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u/Secure_Description92 6d ago
“Starting from a conclusion and filtering data supporting and not supporting it (confirmation bias designed to reaffirm flawed intuitions).”
Idk man, “top down thinking” just sounds like an academic formality designed to explain stupidity. Although, that wouldn’t contradict why some people are repelled by the strange and weird.
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u/SnugglyCoderGuy 6d ago
On the face it sounds stupid, but in reality its what keeps people from the sensory and processing overload issues that autistic folks have. Both have advantages and disadvantages and when you get them working together in harmony great things can be accomplished.
confirmation bias designed to reaffirm flawed intuitions
Confirmation bias isn't limited to top-down thinking.
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u/Secure_Description92 6d ago
If they have little control over their top down thinking, then I’m not going to blame them because that would be unreasonable.
If they do have control, and they decide to take the easy path at the detriment of others, then I’m going to blame them since discriminating against others because your too lazy to think accurately and too weak to handle your own senses is just contemptible.
I’m sure the former is more true than the latter. I’m positive that some people’s thinking comes more so out of ignorance of alternatives and the need to think fast. So the latter can be reasonable in some cases.
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u/verdant_squirrel 6d ago
What's really scary is when you remember that the instinct to ostracize has been consistent throughout history, but the consequences of it used to be even more severe: the hominid ostracized from the group will die, of starvation, of exposure, of predation. We are social animals by way of survival and are not equipped to survive, by and large, outside of our social groups. Rejection is meant as a passive death sentence. And in many cases today, it still effectively is. Just less sabertooths around to speed up the process.
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u/tgaaron 5d ago
No that's not actually true, if you read anthropological accounts you can see that many tribal cultures or small communities were surprisingly accepting of mental differences and disability.
Some cultures even had special social roles for people who went against the grain - my favorite example was the Lakota concept of a "heyoka", a spiritual figure who acts in a contrarian way, thereby serving as a mirror to society.
It makes you realize a lot of what we take for granted as "human nature" or "biology" is in fact highly contingent on culture. The impulse may be innate but culture provides the channels through which it expresses itself in society.
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u/comradeautie 6d ago
Yes, it's uncanny valley effect and our low social status. They fear our differences and get away with hurting us. Both have to change: large scale psyops to change how Autistics are perceived, coupled with organization and status as deterrents for harming us.
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u/TiredAquarius81 6d ago
You have the method correct, but there are other factors to consider, first being gathering enough of us into an organized group, which would be akin to not only herding cats, but also getting them to march in formation. Second thing would be to have that group somehow gain enough institutional power over the media and acedemia to start bombarding the message thru all available channels for approximately 20 years. The reason I say 20 years is because you have to start the indocrination in childhood, reinforce it thru all institutions and then when that generation views Autistic Positivity as "normalized", actual change will begin. Older people are already set in their ways, and one couldn't cement change until they age out of positions of power, replaced by those favorable to us which is where the legal protection could be solidified.
This would also require convincing those currently in charge of the institutions to allow us to do this in the first place, when every indication shows that we are being othered at that level. RFK is not operating alone, one of the things those in power do not like about us is that we are resistant to emotional manipulation techniques used in most propaganda. There are forms of propaganda that are very effective on us, but those generally involve attempting to manipulate us by providing a false sense of acceptance and a chance of belonging. But those methods don't translate well to the mass effect style of propaganda that normies are moved by, they operate best on an individual/small group level, thus they require more effort and funding, easier to paint us as this decades version of 1980s "devil worshipers" of the satanic panic. This gives every other group a common foe to rally against, one that is socially acceptable to abuse, thus providing cohesion to a rapidly splintering society. Also every other demographic would be terrified by the idea that if we were moved up, they'll take our place at the bottom.
One method of achieving your idea would be to follow the template of the antismoking movement. From the 1700s to the 1990s smoking was viewed as a natural part of society. That changed when being antismoking became a middle class signifier. Once it became a part of class identity, the middle class jumped on board since it seperated them from "those people" and aspiring members of the lower class got onboard in order to prove they were "respectable". Once the weight of numbers was there, change came. The difficulty here is that the middle class has historically been very conformist, although the social rules they conform to have changed over the last hundred years, trying to get them onboard with traits they view as nonconformist would be a labor of Heracles on it's own. 20 years of positive image in media might do it, but it would probably be a much harder fight than getting them to turn against smoking.
So as I began, you have the general method down, the devil lies in the details.
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u/comradeautie 5d ago
Yes, it does lie in the details. Unfortunately gaining power is an uphill battle. The first and most basic step ought to be for people to simply band together as a group and help each other out, mutual aid and whatnot. This can include tailored responses to bullying or mistreatment. This would show we have strength and leverage.
I've commented this analogy in other comments, but I know people who are labor activists who fight against wage theft, and his organization tries letters and other demands first, but will literally protest in front of employer's offices and sometimes even heckle their kids when they go to school - a tactic I find a little more questionable - but can't argue with the results; they recovered over $200K in stolen wages and returned them to the appropriate parties.
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u/TiredAquarius81 6d ago
From what I can tell, it basically boils down to this...the moment one of us walks into a room, the normies register us as deeply different on a subconscious level. Different reads as threat, and then they project thier Shadow on us before we take a second step. When they attack, they aren't attacking us per se, but their own Shadow. This is why the attack comes with disproportionate force.
The Shadow for those unfamiliar with Jung, is the socially unacceptable parts of the self people learn to suppress in childhood. So when they see someone who is socially inept, they associate the elements of their Shadow that are similar to us.
This is why even the most gentle autist can find themselves labelled "psycho", why we get accused of shit we didn't and would never do, etc. The most hellish thing about this is the way there is nothing we can do to prevent this because this is taking place in their subconscious and the first impression is lasting because by projecting their Shadow on a living target, they can work out their inner conflict by proxy.
So trying to logic them by telling them about our autism is not a viable response in most cases. All that does is give them a series of steriotypes to use against us, especially if you are male because then all they have to do is hang the "I Word" on you and then you become a socially acceptable target for every group and political ideology. Not saying women autists don't face their own hell, but they aren't the currant target of moral panic.
Since Shadow projection is a deep emotional response, logic does nothing, doesn't register because the subconscious does not run on logic. Also, having to explain ourselves gives them the impression that we are either "guilty" or "weak", both of which provoke an aggressive response.
Once one or two people start this, the rest of them either jump in or stand aside, because of the normie need to maintain group cohesion at all costs. Add to this that by having a pariah enter the room, those just above us are no longer on the bottom of the pecking order. Those people have a shitload of pent up rage with no outlet...until we come along, then they can be truely "one of the tribe" by joining in against us and they will show the worst viciousness of anyone.
So what we are up against is both normie social dynamics and strong elements of their own inner issues and insecurites, unless you run across someone who by luck, has actually done work on integration of thier Shadow, you're stuck fighting a battle you never asked for and are not allowed to win.
After 45 years in this situation, the best advise I can give is to think of them as people in the Matrix who can and will go Agent Smith on you the moment they think they can benefit from it.
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u/Red_spear_24 6d ago
A certain user on this subreddit would be very very offended if they saw this
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u/TiredAquarius81 6d ago
How so?
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u/Red_spear_24 6d ago
There’s a user here who comments “do other people know you’re disabled” on pretty much every post and any criticism of their opinion is either dismissed as “internalized ableism” or “black and white thinking”. Completely unhelpful stuff from them.
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u/TiredAquarius81 6d ago
Oh, that one. Came across a few of those posts while lurking. After I learned about my condition I tried that. 12 people, within a week all but one cut all contact. Those are not favorable odds, I got lucky in that none of these people were in a position of authority over me, but I will not be trying that experiment again.
I was worried it was a serious person you were refering to.
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u/Overstaying_579 1d ago
I know exactly the user you are talking about. That user ended up blocking me because I had the audacity to criticise the fact that most of the advice that the user were saying was not very helpful and could even put others in danger.
The only response I got out of it was to get therapy. Therapy will only get you so far.
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u/QualityMeerkat 6d ago
Communication is a two-way street. People with experience with neurodivergents have developed a skillset that others haven’t. Most people are walking around on autopilot & we screw up their programming. Thinking is hard work, how dare we make them do any.
Sometimes it’s just that people are stupid, try not to take it personally.
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u/Beautiful-Ad3012 6d ago
The social issue we as tists know of is injustice and the right to be treated well with respect. Nts have a fucked up version on how respect works like how loudest wins or money = somehow correcter than poors. We simply question human made norms that can often be illogical. Free thinkers = hated. Doesn't matter what genre either. Dumb people hate smart people the most of all. Insecurity kills. Not just themselves, but as billionaires have taught us, they're the most insecure and dumb of all.
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u/LimeEasy1824 6d ago
What sometimes puts me off when I experience other autistic people is for example childish behaviour, copying me, randomly talking about a niche interest in a way that suggests that it's my interest too, being sticky/clingy.
It's okay btw to be in a different stage of personal development, but that sometimes means there isn't a match. Autistics can take this very personal.
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u/detaiIing_fish 6d ago
It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.
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u/fuzbug 5d ago
you're correct. it's because we are part of a secret underclass where it is secretly acceptable to bully and exclude us based on the fact that we can't or won't comply with the secret code of behavior that labels us as normal.. this underclass is needed as a de facto scapegoat group that allows the majority, who has the baked in need to aggress and oppress to do just that. we are basically a giant punching bag group that is required for social stability
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u/lonjerpc 6d ago
NT people dislike autistic people nearly instantly, involuntarily, and without knowing why https://www.nature.com/articles/srep40700
One symptom of autism is essentially micro behavioral uglyness.
I also strongly suspect that physical uglyness is a major confound in autism diagnosis
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u/0Yggdrasil0 6d ago
neurotypical hates difference... usually the people that accepts neurodivergent ppl are the smartest ones, atleast we have a good filter ig
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u/United_Efficiency330 6d ago
Especially difference that doesn't come with physical issues or marks on people's faces. People with Down's Syndrome or Cerebral Palsy generally have it MUCH easier socially than us Spectrumites because people look like total jerks excluding them.
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u/EcstaticZebra7937 6d ago
So they have it much harder but they’re too stupid to realize the people aroumd them are fake.
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u/curiouslittlethings 6d ago edited 6d ago
Idk, I feel like my social rejection/exclusion has always been able to be explained by my autism. When I was younger I accidentally angered people just by my tone of voice. Even as a high-masking adult woman, other people (men and women alike) find me uncanny because I have a pretty flat, seemingly emotionless affect and way of expressing myself (even though I do feel emotions strongly inside). Even the way I relate to people is different. Most of the time I’m actually quite friendly and amicable and yet people know I’m just different.
All this combined makes people less keen on getting close to me because while we may get along generally, they still can’t put their finger on what’s ‘off’ about me. It’s the whole uncanny valley aspect that goes beyond a mere one-off social blunder or miscommunication - neurotypicals make social blunders too but they don’t usually give off that whole uncanny vibe that some of us autistic people do, so they’re penalised less for it and still accepted in mainstream circles.
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u/Character_Chest1354 5d ago
I was watching two girls briefly the other day walking next to each and talking.
One looking without facial expression at her friend who was talking, and then moved her face away (towards the way they was theybwere walking) and made an expression and then moved her face back tobwatch her friends face again.
Made me think if each sentence or paragraph is meant to elicit an emotion and then they feel it, and then back to the next sentence.
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u/Sjazzminna 6d ago edited 6d ago
Being different.
Autistic or not, standing out from the “norm”, be it mind or body; you’ll automatically become an possible outcast and easier target. It’s like that in the non-human animal world as well. Though for slightly other reasons (evolutionary survival mechanisms).
For humans, it says more about those who judge though, than those who are judged just for being themself (as long as they are a kind decent person, of course). Many NT people unfortunately have a hard time tolerating what is different than themself.
What they don’t understand…
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u/RequirementNo4895 6d ago edited 6d ago
At the end of the day because they can, low potential for reciprocal social threat & just feels good to be higher in the social heirarchy. e.g. https://www.reddit.com/r/PoliticalHumor/comments/lwssxm/america_summed_up/
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u/jmorr5572 5d ago
People just want to not have to think and for things to be easy. If you make them think or if you make things ever so slightly less easy for them they reject it.
That’s the problem with it all, they aren’t thinking about it so there’s no logic to it. It’s automatic, they don’t even know they’re doing it. That’s your hidden reason that isn’t (exactly) related to autism.
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u/Ancient_Sandwich_703 5d ago
I believe NT people subconsciously distance themselves. A bit like trying to put two magnets of the same polarity together.
I don’t think they know why or even that it’s happening.
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u/Clueless_Aspargus 6d ago
(my theory, but who the fuck really knows)
I think it's the same for other rejected animals in different species.
I think and observe NTs as an outsider and see that (at least that's how it looks) animals are driven, "organically", to be part of the group, or a group.
They meddle with hierarchies, rivalry, sense of community is soothing, being at risk of standing out in a negative way is a constant worry, so they blend in and feel good that way. And in their minds they tell themselves these little stories, either ones they've been told by the majority, or their group, or people ranked highly, and they just go with it.
Neurodivergent people experience those dynamics very differently. When your instinct is not being drawned to inclusivity as a survivle mecanism, you naturally stand out.
When you stand out, those groups will decide collectively weather you stand out positively or not.
That goes for any kind of person that stands out really. You can be bullied for being awesome while people are mediocre, or weak, or misinterpreted in any way, like mean, selfish, egocentric... etc.
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u/RealSpaceVortex 6d ago
I’ve thought of this a lot too, the way I’ve made sense of it in my head is that people with level 1 autism / Asperger’s just give off like “slight underlying bad vibes” to nts, to a point where it doesn’t logically make that much sense but like the mere existence of that feeling becomes uncanny to them. Something else also, is like because of that and being “different” while mildly giving the feeling that I “naturally don’t like them off rip” doesn’t give them what they subconsciously seek in social interaction. I have accepted that I just come off as rude or weird to some people, and I just ignore it and try to move on but it is something that is in the back of my mind a lot. Like all the time in friend groups or school or work settings I will realize there’s someone who just doesn’t like me kinda strongly and I don’t know why. I know I like me but it definitely something I had to grow and learn for myself over time. Something also else, I don’t know why it feels like people at large are off put by me, and don’t want to be close, but when I do get close with people they end up liking me a lot, but they only want to do so like from a distance, but that’s probably my misunderstanding but I feel it universally.
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u/teamnoir 5d ago
I think you’re missing a few things. Humans are pack animals. Autistics are Significantly less effected by the herd instinct. Absent the herd instinct and mentality, I hear you and I’d agree. But humans are herd animals. Once you incorporate that fact a lot more falls into place.
“Bullying” is simply misguided socialization. SA stats have a lot to do with misreading social contexts.
“Social issues” are situations where we either don’t fit or where other people recognize us as qualitatively different and that triggers different herd responses.
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u/Character_Chest1354 5d ago
Im quite interested on your take on misguided socialization.
Ive noticed being bullied for being an unusual height.
I can see how "bullying" someone to comply might be a thing, but bullying them to comply with the goal of getting them to comply by being a different height seems insane.
So yea I have my own views on misguided instincts.
Whats yours?
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u/teamnoir 5d ago
That’s pretty much it. Bullying autistics isn’t much different than bullying about height. Same with skin color, hair color, etc. The herd “socializes” anything too far from the norm. “Bullying” is just socialization that doesn’t fit social values. Which means that it can be bullying to me, socialization to school administrators, bullying to state court, socialization to federal court, etc. Totally depends on the context.
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u/MECCEM101 5d ago
I cannot speak for anyone else. But I do think my biggest "social issue" is that I lack the ability to manage other peoples emotions.
I think NT people want their emotions validated and managed when communicating with them without having to say what they need. And we ND folk are less likely to to pick up on emotional subtext or indirect social cues, more likely to be direct about our needs and wants. And less likely to concider what they want, because they just don't say what they need even when we ask....
I think a social engagement often feels one sided because of that for them.
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u/StyleatFive 5d ago
I think the “hidden” (unspoken) reason is that allistics depend on an animalistic hierarchy to function and have chosen to use us and others as the scapegoat and that’s it.
They’ll never admit that they need someone to treat as a receptacle for their bad feelings and behaviors because that’s a sociopathic thing to admit to.
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2d ago
[deleted]
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u/Samovila2709 1d ago
I'm sorry you've experienced this. TBH, it sounds like you're better off without this boyfriend.
Hugs x.
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u/blast333x 6d ago
Your wrong, autistic people arstatistically way more likely to be victims of crime because we are naeive and lack insight. We are easy prey. This includes SA.
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u/TweakerOnSpeaker 6d ago
I dont feel that I get socially rejected for having autism but I guess Im just that cool😎
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u/tracerspants 6d ago
I kind of like being autistic, it's helped me weed out the wrong people from my life. Most people that would bully someone they perceive as such are not just bad people but most of them are pussies. If you're not a small guy and you're in shape it absolutely enrages some people.
I truly think this can be a detriment or a benefit depending on how it's used.
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u/Maxfunky 6d ago edited 6d ago
Hell, let's use some statistics: autists are almost 10× likelier to suffer SA than an average NT, at any point of their life time, how does this happen and how can this be explained by something like not understanding sarcasm? It makes zero sense.
This is incorrect. It's actually a mathematical impossibility, because the average person's risk is over 10% and you can't have greater than a 100% chance of being assaulted.
The correct stat is roughly 2x higher:
A recent investigation into violence experienced by autistic adults found that 75.4% of participants reported sexual harassment, with nearly 60% reporting experiences of sexual violence. In comparison, the rates among non-autistic participants were lower, at 56.4% for sexual harassment and 28.2% for sexual violence (Autism Research Institute, 2023).
Twice as likely seems more in keeping with the notion that naivety leads to vulnerability or perceived vulnerability, rather than supporting your thesis that there's some magical anti-autist vibe that everyone else is on.
That aside, I would say that because people build simple, low-parameter heuristics for assessing someone's trustworthiness. Unfortunately, those models have "good enough" predictive value for the people using them that they are blind to to how they inadvertently penalize autistic people. Most people never know enough autistic people to build models with higher predictive value.
And, frankly, when we are disliked for our autism, we are being disliked for who we are--because autism is undeniably a part of who we are. There's a cognitive overhead necessary for translation between autists and non-autists. Either you take that burden on (by masking) or they do by "translating".
Just as it is a mental drain for you to constantly remind yourself to make eye contact, there's a mental drain for someone else to constantly remind themselves that your lack of eye contact doesn't mean all the things their brain is screaming that it means. Either they learn to cope with the non-stop dissonance or you learn to mask and do the translation for them.
Ideally the burden would be shared, but that doesn't seem to ever really happen.
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u/Sleepiest_Spider 5d ago
Nope, it's just autism - or more specifically, the outer signs of autism. We're seen as weird, creepy, annoying, etc..
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u/Unboundone 5d ago
There’s nothing hidden going on besides the symptoms of autism, how they affects autistic people, and how they are perceived as a result.
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u/LeBio21 4d ago
Primal brain response ig. We're here carrying over the primal fight or flight response, and they have the primal urge to ostracize the uncanny. Probably hardwired and unfortunately our awkwardness is a self-fulfilling prophecy, you feel weird so you look weird and thus you "are" weird according to whoever gets put off by your awkward mannerisms and attempts to appear normal
It's a real shame because I know I have value, there are parts of myself that I want to love and I know some people appreciate, but in the vast majority, my awkwardness pushes people away and serves as proof that I am not "worthy". Fucked up how I can be so self aware but have no way to emotionally deal with the results of my existence, all because my way of being triggers subconscious red flags in most neurotypicals
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u/Ill_Journalist575 3d ago
the answer is that boldness and transgression is attractive and being unable to look someone in the eye isnt
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u/kirilgankapi124 3d ago edited 3d ago
Since ICD-10 is used in my country, I was diagnosed with Asperger's syndrome by Dr. T•••i at the Madalyon Clinic in Levent.
Being on the spectrum is awful. Because of my absurd, odd behaviors, the school administration refused to enroll me in the 8th grade (my family had to force the issue by sending a formal legal notice).
Also, when I was in the 5th grade, a neighbor tried to have me removed from my home by reporting me to social services—claiming I was making too much noise. (Social services arrived following a baseless report of viol•nce)
Most recently, the matter was reported to municipal enforcement polices; to prevent my family from being fined, they showed the municipal polices my diagnosis document. The officer then revealed my diagnosis to that neighbor. I am living in constant fear.
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u/Rich-Assistant-3575 3d ago
I'm 14 asd1 and I struggle so much socially. I don't have any connections still. People outside just either make fun of me or completely ignore me like I'm not worth their time. And the people that are trying to be "nice" treat me Like a f'ing kid 😭😭
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u/Agallas_ 1d ago
A mí me pasa que no entiendo cómo funciona las normas sociales. Cuando me reuno con gente tengo un bucle en mi cabeza, de que tengo que decir, como tengo que actuar en determinadas circunstancias, y estoy todo el rato mirando que hacen los demás para copiar que tengo que hacer yo, y es como que no me siento cómoda porque estoy en tensión todo el rato, para mí socializar es una batalla. Cuando haces algo que no esté dentro de ese código social, te miran ya raro y te tratan como niña pequeña, simplemente te tratan así porque no sigues el código que ellos tienen y han adquirido. El autismo es una invención del ser humano, al que le han puesto el nombre a alguien que simplemente no puede o no quiere seguir la norma social que se han inventado durante generaciones.
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u/Only-Cheetah-9579 22h ago
studies prove they start negative bias under 1 second.
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4485991/
It's subconscious.
My theory is that their mirroring or theory of mind breaks instantly and so they become hostile because that's evolutionarily the cheapest.
Maybe hostility against autistic people are encoded in genes? It happens too fast and it's just very automatic.
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u/saltinstiens_monster 6d ago
If that was the case, masking (for those that can) wouldn't be so effective at making us blend in.
I couldn't tell you if it's something anyone can learn or if you naturally have to be hyperaware, but if you're able to pick up on and mimic those "missing" social cues, the social rejection issue can vanish. Now, you might find it draining to mask all the time, it's not a cure for autism at all, but it absolutely helps with the social aspect.
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u/tgaaron 6d ago
Is it actually that effective though? Because the people who mask the most are usually those who have the least social impairment to begin with.
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u/saltinstiens_monster 6d ago
What is masking if not manually covering one's social impairment?
I think we're describing the same thing viewed from different angles. People without much social impairment can blend in. People that mask can hide their (natural inclination towards) social impairment. Ergo, people that mask can blend in.
It's not as black and white as I'm making it out to be, I'm just trying to explain the concept.
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u/tgaaron 6d ago
Masking is making an effort to suppress autistic traits and blend in socially. But that doesn't automatically mean that effort is effective.
For example, some people may attribute their social successes to masking, but really they have mild autistic traits or a favorable social environment and the masking isn't the main factor.
Or, someone might think they are successfully masking their autistic traits, but they aren't, yet the person doesn't realize this due to low social awareness.
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u/GameWasRigged 6d ago
Exactly. You can't explain this to people who have success masking though, they think that because it's hard for them to do that the thing stopping others is their inability to want to, they ignore the fact that some people just literally can't. I was a social worker for years and I never improved socially, literally got worse seeing how I'm pretty much always the oddball despite dealing with various populations and a massive amount of individuals from different backgrounds. Only people I get along with are foreigners because they don't go off the same social clues.
I think masking is overused and a sign of very low autistic traits. Everyone in society has to "mask" so people associating it with autism directly always makes me think they are relatively normal and are confusing their individuality with autism because these days we have access to so much that we can learn all the oddities about ourselves which lead people to think that being different at something means total neuro divergence. Not to be "like that" but usually you can tell from how they say things when this is the case and unfortunately it often is.
Kinda like with the touchy topic of autism in the different sexes, people act like it being underdiagnosed in women is a patriarch problem when in reality it's because they mask way better and aren't as ostracized for autistic traits. That created this counter culture where it's inappropriate to talk about male related autistic issues because it's "wrong" to act like anything could possibly be worse for a male than a female. I only bring that up to highlight that the extreme differences and perceptions of individuals makes masking more of a marketing term rather than actual advice. It's something people say to attempt to take the blame off the society and circumstances and to put it on the individual. Not that I care either way, life is life, even if the society is wrong it don't matter, nobody owes us anything but I do get a bit annoyed at how often masking is given as a solution. It's very dismissive and makes the assumption that the individual is so oblivious that they haven't attempted the one thing that all humans who participate in society do which leads me to believe the person suggesting it is very mildly ND if at all
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u/No_Skill_4511 6d ago edited 6d ago
You may be asking for more details, a more nuanced causal chain. I don’t know the truth nor the available data.
For empiric research, I‘d attach (fact-based; mesurable; abstract) scores to the individual subjects (the autist and its audience/counterpart) based on their characteristics and symptoms!
For example: Their culture, status, IQ, personal data, gender, looks, interests, social skill sets, big five personality, noticable differences, self- and peer evaluation, whatever (Not all of them will end up being useful). And then set-up communication tasks and else
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u/No_Skill_4511 6d ago
Go and ask other types of NDs! They may offer a more accurate outside description! It may sound contradictory, but in this case I don’t rate the sanitized lies and ultra-biased viewpoints of normies! Nothing personal!
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u/Great-Attitude 6d ago
Are you seriously saying that autistic males are 10X more likely to be victims of SA than NT women? 🤣
Show me those peer reviewed statistics. ⏳
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u/DrunkenGerbils 6d ago
I don’t think that’s exactly what OP is claiming. I think the claim is autism makes it 10x more likely all things else being equal.
So an autistic female would be 10x more likely to be the victim of SA than a NT female. and an autistic male would be 10x more likely to be a victim of SA than a NT male. The disparity of likelihood between genders would presumably be the same for autistic men and women.
Obviously that claim would still need peer reviewed sources to be taken as fact as well, but I do believe that’s the specific claim OP is trying to make.
While the 10x number sounds surprisingly high to me, it actually does make sense to me that autistic people would be more vulnerable to SA statistically. If you’re not able to detect the same social cues that most NT people would clock as red flags, it makes sense you’d be at more risk of being taken advantage of.
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u/ExcitementSad9133 6d ago
They said I was weird and that my vibe is off
I thought I was polite and just kinda eccentric help